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ignition timing? #764298
02/02/19 8:51 pm
02/02/19 8:51 pm
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Antigua
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Dave Martin Offline OP
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Ok, "finished" the rebuild. 1968 ish B44. new valves, guides, rebore (so new piston and rings) whole load of head problems (previous posts) but now well sorted.
New Wassell ignition plus Podtronics reg. New AMAL carb. Ignition set up to the marks, which I have checked (9/32" BTDC as per Rupert Ratio). I kick and I kick ( tickle the carb, bring it up to TDC, ease it over with the deco ever, then kick like hell) but all I get is a "chuff" back through the carb. I stripped it back down to check valve timing marks, perfect, noticed one of the cam followers was wrong way round (Ah, ha THATS the problem) put it all back together...……. Kick, chuff , kick chuff. no darn different. It sparks real well, I put an electric drill on the crank shaft nut and spun the engine over (plug out), lots of sparks, so figured to put a strobe on it while doing that to find out WHEN it is sparking, BUT the only strobes available are " not suitable for motorcycles or vehicles with positive earth", so that would be me then. Does ANYONE have any ideas??

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Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764300
02/02/19 9:05 pm
02/02/19 9:05 pm
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Scotland
kommando Offline
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Every strobe I have bought has worked on both types of earth.

Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764301
02/02/19 9:06 pm
02/02/19 9:06 pm
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DMadigan Online content
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You can statically check timing by replacing the coil with a 12 volt (6?) lamp. Very obvious when the points open.
My strobe has a clamp for the plug wire and battery terminals. Ground polarity does not matter.

Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764302
02/02/19 9:37 pm
02/02/19 9:37 pm
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Antigua
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Dave Martin Offline OP
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I hesitated to buy the strobe as that is what it specifically said on the box! would use a bulb to "check points open", unfortunately no points!

Re: ignition timing? [Re: DMadigan] #764306
02/02/19 9:51 pm
02/02/19 9:51 pm
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Posts: 1,233
Sydney, Oz
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Shane in Oz Online content

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"Near enough" ignition timing will normally be enough to get a bike running if everything else is right, then the timing can be set with the timing light.

BSA singles can be an acquired art to start, especially if they don't have a choke.
Have you tried pouring a small amount of fuel down the spark plug hole?
Does the spark plug look wet or dry after the start attempt?
What's the compression reading?
Are you opening the throttle when kicking?

My B44 starts cold quite readily with the throttle closed, but quite often floods when it's hot. If it doesn't show any sign of life in about 4 kicks, I give it full throttle which normally does the trick. Yours will probably be different, but that might happen to work.

People tend to discount the use of a Colortune because they can't be used at larger throttle openings, but they're extremely useful for this sort of situation. You can see what's happening in the combustion chamber (spark, flame colour, lack of flame, etc)

Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764309
02/02/19 9:59 pm
02/02/19 9:59 pm
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Antigua
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Dave Martin Offline OP
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compression 120psi, valve gaps set correctly. plug looks wet. throttle closed. I agree on the "near enough" idea but how the heck do I get it "near enough" statically with electronic ignition??? I have no clue as to when it is actually firing as opposed to when it should be firing!

Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764313
02/02/19 10:46 pm
02/02/19 10:46 pm
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Sydney, Oz
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Shane in Oz Online content

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That is rather a limitation of electronic ignitions. The instructions should specify the initial "near enough" static setting, but that doesn't help if there's a manufacturing problem.
I'm not even slightly familia with the Wassell units, but as a rule the trigger point is when the rotor magnet passes under the stator coil. You could set it slightly advanced from that and then fiddle around advancing / retarding until it shows some sign of life.

Your electric drill / timing light approach would be easier. You should be able to run yours off an external battery. They don't really care *where* they get power from, it's just to power the strobe light which is triggered by the high tension pulse to the spark plug,

Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764314
02/02/19 10:56 pm
02/02/19 10:56 pm
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melbourne florida
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bodine031 Offline
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Hook the lite to a battery not attached to the bike, it's just a power source for the light. the clamp on the sparkler lead triggers the lite. it sounds like the timing is off. but you have verified the pinion gear marks are lined up, so not sure. Make sure the push rods are in the right tappet. inne is outee intake is in the outboard tappet

Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764316
02/02/19 11:49 pm
02/02/19 11:49 pm
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Posts: 1,874
Pacific northwest
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quinten Online confused
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Wassel / Vape ignition .

A simple check is to change/ reverse the polarity
From the timing stator to the transistor box .
... if it's backwards ... the instruction sheet says
Timing will be retarded .
.

Last edited by quinten; 02/02/19 11:49 pm.
Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764323
02/03/19 12:48 am
02/03/19 12:48 am
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Canada
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LarryLebel Online content
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About all I can offer is encouragement. I've had Wassell EI in my B44R for a few years now and I'm very happy with it. My bike is a one kick starter (with tickling) when cold and one when hot. I didn't have any installation issues that I recall. It fired right up and I adjusted the timing with my strobe light.

Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764324
02/03/19 1:25 am
02/03/19 1:25 am
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Antigua
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Dave Martin Offline OP
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Hmmm, just read the wassell instructions again again again, and noticed " The coil current should drop to zero after 2 seconds without triggering". Measuring with my multimeter all I am getting is 0.4mv across the coil???? any electricians out there ???

Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764326
02/03/19 2:00 am
02/03/19 2:00 am
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NickL Online content
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The EI unit will switch off the coil after a few seconds if it doesn't receive any trigger pulses,
this is done to stop the coil overheating with a stalled engine or forgetting to switch off the
ignition. When trigger pulses appear again, ie. when kicking over or engine running the coil will
be switched as per normal again. The few millivolts you are measuring are misleading you,
if you are getting sparks then the unit is probably working. Go through the timing set-up again
and make sure you have used the correct rotation indicator, i can't remember if a b44 has
clockwise or anti-clockwise rotation at the ignition rotor. Also check you have the ignition
stator wires the correct way around. If they are crossed the timing will be massively retarded.

Last edited by NickL; 02/03/19 2:01 am.

No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764329
02/03/19 2:09 am
02/03/19 2:09 am
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If you use a screwdriver or similar to determine approx TDC then mark the shaft, add 8mm
and mark again, rotate the motor forwards to the 8mm mark on your screwdriver and set the EI
timing mark there. That should get you started.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764335
02/03/19 2:33 am
02/03/19 2:33 am
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Antigua
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Dave Martin Offline OP
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do you mean rotate the motor BACKWARDS? surely that would give the "fully advanced" timing mark? If so, I have already done that but with a micrometer.

Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764336
02/03/19 2:42 am
02/03/19 2:42 am
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NickL Online content
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No, always set the timing rotating the engine forwards this takes up any backlash in timing gears etc.
ie rotate 330 degrees forwards until the +8mm mark appears.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764337
02/03/19 2:47 am
02/03/19 2:47 am
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Pacific northwest
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quinten Online confused
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Originally Posted by Dave Martin
do you mean rotate the motor BACKWARDS? surely that would give the "fully advanced" timing mark? If so, I have already done that but with a micrometer.


No .
The transistor boxes timing is responding to the rotational Direction
of the camshaft or the idler pulley
That the little magnetic rotor is attached to .
As the kit is somewhat Universal
Some installation expertise is expected .
It's not that you haven't obeyed the instructions ... but we as non-participants
In the installation ... have to ask all the silly and basic questions

Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764344
02/03/19 3:47 am
02/03/19 3:47 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,650
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Online content
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Is "near enough" accomplished with a Wassell as with a Boyer or Pazon, i.e., position the crank to the full advance point and line up the hole in the stator plate with the white dot on the magnet rotor?


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764345
02/03/19 3:51 am
02/03/19 3:51 am
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Antigua
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Dave Martin Offline OP
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yeah, got you about the backlash. I rotated the crank back a good way from TDC then forwards again till I got to the 8mm before TDC. Both crank and cam "shaft" are counter clockwise rotation. I am happy to have "all the silly and basic questions" asked as I feel that I have done something silly and basic! NickL …. I get what you say about the few millivolts but what I was saying was, that is ALL I am getting, even when I first turn on. Then it begs the question as to why I get any spark at all, so you are probably right. must get a strobe on it to find out what is happening.

Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764349
02/03/19 6:31 am
02/03/19 6:31 am
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When you first turn on the ignition the coil will be on, that means that on the EI wire side of the coil
it will read approx 1.5 volts and 12-14 Battery volts on the 'live' side , these readings are with reference to Negative battery volts.
This will be apparent for a few seconds then the EI will (in the case of the Vape unit) slowly ramp until
the voltage on the EI side will be just the volt drop across the coil, so you should read about 12 volts or so after a few seconds.
Once again this is with respect to battery 0v or Negative.

The voltage of 1.5 or so at the EI wire is the forward volt drop across the output device of the EI which will at that point be on.
Most of these EI's use a darlington transistor pair so typically the volt drop is around 1.2-2.0v. when fully biased on.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764351
02/03/19 7:17 am
02/03/19 7:17 am
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To test put a small 12v 2w lamp across the coil the lamp will light when the coil is switched on and will
go out when the coil is switched off (the spark point). Problem is you have to do it very quickly as the
stall timer will operate in a few seconds. Don't leave it attached as the EI side of the coil carries around
400v when the engine is running.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764407
02/03/19 6:57 pm
02/03/19 6:57 pm
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Antigua
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Dave Martin Offline OP
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Oh my giddy Aunt!!! It starts! first time, every time! I had a niggling memory of a youtube vid of an old guy (a good 5 years younger than me!) starting his B44 real easy. he mentioned that he had got his method from this forum. I found it! Kick up to compression, valve lift over, continue till you feel the exhaust valve springs, re cock the kicker and kick! viola it starts! EVERY DARN TIME! Thank you every one for all your help and suggestion, as I said earlier in this thread "I was probably doing something silly and stupid". will still put the strobe on it to check timing, but hey, the relief!

Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764412
02/03/19 7:33 pm
02/03/19 7:33 pm
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Allan Gill Offline

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I’ve found it’s all about the leg with these singles. I don’t like using the decompressor though, I take it up to compression, then rest my foot on the lever (not push) the crank will edge over compression then when it starts to feel free’r. Repostion the kick start lever and a strong but steady kick. These don’t like to be kicked like a 2 stroke, it’ll never start like that.


beerchug
Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764420
02/03/19 8:21 pm
02/03/19 8:21 pm
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Dave Martin Offline OP
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Two stroke?, two stroke!!?? I am surprised that you have not been expelled for even thinking those words let alone mentioning them on this forum!! one of my sons once bought one of them, it was several years till we spoke again. …… I must admit, I was unhappy with the way it "felt" when kicking but it has literally been over 40 years since I owned a British single and memories and techniques fade.....thankfully, as the last one was an old (even then) ES2 and it scared the willys out of me starting that beast! Since then it has been a long catalogue of machines from the orient, some even with electric start! This project was a "gift" from afore mentioned son by way of penance. Looks quite nice, made it into a kinda replica of an Enduro, fear not purists, frame and engine numbers do not match, it was a Bitsa long before I got it. Now the NEXT one ………… (don't tell the wife!)

Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764444
02/04/19 12:09 am
02/04/19 12:09 am
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Nice one David, all set for a blast around the island eh????


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: ignition timing? [Re: Dave Martin] #764486
02/04/19 2:44 pm
02/04/19 2:44 pm
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melbourne florida
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bodine031 Offline
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Tip you may or not know. First start attempt after bike has sat. engage 1st gear hold clutch lever to grip and rock the bike back and forth till you feel the stuck clutch plates break loose. Makes it easier to start, also use Ford ATF the old [***] or primary oil for a big twin HD the old [***] also in the primary chain case.
Glad you got it running it is a big fun bike. I have a 69 B-44VS since the early 80's. Podtronics reg/rect, gel electrolyte battery( takes vibration better) Boyer Ign., Kuni 30mm roundslide. Make sure the battery you have is fully charged before trying to start, if its kicks back cause of low voltage it can wipe out the kickstart shaft/gear.

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