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Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. #762472
01/13/19 8:52 pm
01/13/19 8:52 pm
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 25
portland or
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drunkenmonkz Offline OP
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Hello folks,
Im in process of rebuilding a 64 lightning motor and would like to do upgrades while im in there. Im wondering what would be a list of things and mods you would do while re-building the motor. Plans so far are an srm oil pump, ARD magneto (have one ive been saving to put on), rods with oiler hole in left side and a later cam.
One question i have is what do i have to do to convert to the primary side roller bearing instead of the ball bearing. I read somewhere that they had 2 different crank shaft sizes during production But i don't know when they went to the larger and how that would influence swapping to the roller bearing.
Im planning on putting a thunderbolt head i have on it but am not sure if its an early or later head. Is there differences in valve sizes and would i be able to determine simply by the part number cast in the head?
Any other things/differences between the 64 and later years that is pertinent to know? so i dont accidentally purchase the wrong size or part that is for 66 or later...
Thanks for your input!!

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Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: drunkenmonkz] #762481
01/13/19 10:10 pm
01/13/19 10:10 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 935
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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Posts: 935
Farnham, Surrey, UK
I guess much depends on how you intend to use the bike if it was mine I would set it up for fast road use as follows:-
- the SRM oil pump is a good upgrade and will ensure good oil pressure, make sure you use a new anti-drain valve and ball behind the pump
- fit an oil filter in the return line, SRM don't recommend this for some strange reason, however its important to keep the oil clean
- fit a new OPRV, try and find a new original piston type if possible, the SRM version is OK but has been noted to wear
- don't worry about conrods with the oil hole in the left side rod, this an attempt by BSA to fix a seizing problem which was actually caused by inaccurate ignition timing between cylinders
- consider using new billet conrods for peace of mind
- I'm not sure I would use an ARD magneto, would probably be easier and simpler to use Pazon/Boyer ignition
- using a ball bearing main on the drive side is acceptable especially if your mileage is limited. The ball bearing controls the crank end float effectively, if however, you use a roller bearing on the drive side then controlling end float is more complicated as shims need to be used and the clearances checked carefully.
- get the crank timing side and big end journals checked and ground as required, have the crank oil sludge trap changed
- the plain timing side bearing needs to be line bored to ensure concentricity with the drive side and finally honed to ensure clearance with the crank journal is 1.5 thou. If you really wanted to spend some money, go for the full flow SRM end feed conversion.
- fit an alloy sump plate with a magnetic drain plug
- converting the engine to single carb thunderbolt spec is a good idea and will make the bike run sweetly. I don't know the differences between early and late heads but I believe there was a change in thread types somewhere around 1968.

Last edited by gunner; 01/14/19 12:56 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: drunkenmonkz] #762485
01/13/19 10:43 pm
01/13/19 10:43 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,275
Aus
N
NickL Offline
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Aus
The crank on the ball race motors is a different length across the webbs and uses no timing side thrust washer.
If you want to convert it to a roller you will need to machine the timing side case and make up a thrust washer.
Stick with a ball race, it's easier, just use a good one as there is a load of crap bearings about.

If you are a reasonably competent mechanic, rebuilding a later type oil pump is time consuming but effective or
you can buy a new one from srm or even try a wassel one??????
The rods were all supposed to have the oil bleed hole on the drive side, but it doesn't really matter if it has or not.
Later rods are slightly stronger and peened but if you are buying new ones then the map steel ones are the way to go.

My own view is that mags are lovely, characterful etc. BUT i wouldn't bother these days as EI has decent advance curves etc.

The early head has 5/16 rear fixing bolts not 3/8. It also has 1/4 BSF rocker cover studs. There were several changes over the
years but none to worry about. In essence, any head will fit any motor with a little work.

Spend some time on the piston crowns, radius all the edges etc Use decent valves and guides and get a good seat job done.
Spend some time setting up the gearbox, shimming the layshaft, radius the cam plunger, good camplate etc.
Fit a return line oil filter. Maybe a new relief valve spring too.

Just my 2c


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: gunner] #762504
01/14/19 1:10 am
01/14/19 1:10 am
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 25
portland or
D
drunkenmonkz Offline OP
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portland or
I am planning to do some miles on it. Nothing extravagant but i do enjoy longer multi day trips. Not anything over 300 miles per day though. definitely going with the return oil filter and oil cooler. Have them on my 68 and wouldnt want to run without. Im running a pazon on my 68 and have had years of good experience with it. Only downside is if the battery is a little low then its another story. Good info on the new anti drain valve and ball as well as info on the heads!

Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: drunkenmonkz] #762516
01/14/19 2:43 am
01/14/19 2:43 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,627
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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Owego, NY, USA
+1 on keeping the ball bearing DS main. Last rebuild on my A65 bitsa, I had to employ a '65 LR lower (because I trashed my '66 Spit lower due to oil starvation), and the engine has been a sweet runner since. DO have it balanced though.

It's more a matter of load, horsepower, and rpms than mileage. If you're not going to "soup up" the upper, or rev it to 7K regularly, I think you'll find the ball bearing to be quite adequate.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: Mark Z] #762522
01/14/19 7:09 am
01/14/19 7:09 am
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 25
portland or
D
drunkenmonkz Offline OP
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drunkenmonkz  Offline OP
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portland or
Originally Posted by Mark Z
+1 on keeping the ball bearing DS main. Last rebuild on my A65 bitsa, I had to employ a '65 LR lower (because I trashed my '66 Spit lower due to oil starvation), and the engine has been a sweet runner since. DO have it balanced though.

It's more a matter of load, horsepower, and rpms than mileage. If you're not going to "soup up" the upper, or rev it to 7K regularly, I think you'll find the ball bearing to be quite adequate.



Nah, i wont be "souping up" really. Just want to do some of the more practical upgrades, be able to have a reliable runner with the confidence that it wont grenade when i occasionally open it up. Definitely taking it to get balanced!

Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: Mark Z] #762525
01/14/19 9:34 am
01/14/19 9:34 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,226
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,226
West Yorkshire
Originally Posted by NickL
The crank on the ball race motors is a different length across the webbs and uses no timing side thrust washer.
If you want to convert it to a roller you will need to machine the timing side case and make up a thrust washer.
Stick with a ball race, it's easier, just use a good one as there is a load of crap bearings about.

If you are a reasonably competent mechanic, rebuilding a later type oil pump is time consuming but effective or
you can buy a new one from srm or even try a wassel one??????
The rods were all supposed to have the oil bleed hole on the drive side, but it doesn't really matter if it has or not.
Later rods are slightly stronger and peened but if you are buying new ones then the map steel ones are the way to go.

My own view is that mags are lovely, characterful etc. BUT i wouldn't bother these days as EI has decent advance curves etc.

The early head has 5/16 rear fixing bolts not 3/8. It also has 1/4 BSF rocker cover studs. There were several changes over the
years but none to worry about. In essence, any head will fit any motor with a little work.

Spend some time on the piston crowns, radius all the edges etc Use decent valves and guides and get a good seat job done.
Spend some time setting up the gearbox, shimming the layshaft, radius the cam plunger, good camplate etc.
Fit a return line oil filter. Maybe a new relief valve spring too.

Just my 2c



Agree to everything here, also if you still have the early small port (1 1/8 at the carb) head then keep it, DONT change it.

If you want more torque the SRM race cam is a good combination with the small port head, keep the valves the standard small size also, it'll give good MPG's and you'll be gearing the bike higher simply because it will cope with it quite happily.

Also if doing the above, fit the SRM race springs, they are not too heavy on wear but go well with any cam.

The ED V pistons are a good buy if you need to change those. If you don't.... don't worry

Fit a NOS OPRV (piston type) they are available in the states, forget the srm unit, I have known 3 to stick.

If you need a clutch, look at the bob newby belt drive... Quite possibly the best mod ive done to mine, no slip, no drag and has taken a lot of punishment and not yet burned it out. cost is about same as replacing a standard one.

As your in the states, get the MAP rods as suggested, I have great service from new aluminum rods from Thunder Engineering, but as your in the states...

If your worried about battery and EI and want to spend some money, the Pazon Smart fire is fully digital and uses very little power... I know what you mean about low batteries although good battery maintenance is key there... ( I am one who forgets this eek )

Originally Posted by Mark Z
+1 on keeping the ball bearing DS main. Last rebuild on my A65 bitsa, I had to employ a '65 LR lower (because I trashed my '66 Spit lower due to oil starvation), and the engine has been a sweet runner since. DO have it balanced though.

It's more a matter of load, horsepower, and rpms than mileage. If you're not going to "soup up" the upper, or rev it to 7K regularly, I think you'll find the ball bearing to be quite adequate.


I have the ball on mine, it regularly sees higher on the rpms when in use and the ball bearings are lasting longer than the rollers.


beerchug
Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: drunkenmonkz] #762528
01/14/19 10:50 am
01/14/19 10:50 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,155
Stone Creek OH USA
R
Rich B Offline

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Stone Creek OH USA
:thumbs up to the ball bearing bottom end. And the 4 spring clutch. And the early head. BSA had a lot of things right in those motors, then proceeded to make “improvements” into a more fussy motor that, IMO, doesn’t work as well.

The ball bearing motor with a small port head and 4 spring clutch needs a later oil pump and piston type OPRV along with careful assembly to be a sweet running vintage motor on the road today. The small port head works really well with the 68-473 cam. There is simply is no dead spot in the power band. It is also capable of decent highway speed with the right gearing. 19/42 works well if you are going to ride the bike and expect to be on todays roads.

Since I own too many bikes......I have 2 vintage bikes that are very comfortable on today’s roads. One is the Gold Star, the other is my 65 Lightning Clubman replica - which has a ball bearing crank.....it just rocks on the road


Never underestimate the human ability to elevate stupid to a whole new level!.
Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: Rich B] #762536
01/14/19 1:56 pm
01/14/19 1:56 pm
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 25
portland or
D
drunkenmonkz Offline OP
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portland or
Originally Posted by Rich B
:thumbs up to the ball bearing bottom end. And the 4 spring clutch. And the early head. BSA had a lot of things right in those motors, then proceeded to make “improvements” into a more fussy motor that, IMO, doesn’t work as well.

The ball bearing motor with a small port head and 4 spring clutch needs a later oil pump and piston type OPRV along with careful assembly to be a sweet running vintage motor on the road today. The small port head works really well with the 68-473 cam. There is simply is no dead spot in the power band. It is also capable of decent highway speed with the right gearing. 19/42 works well if you are going to ride the bike and expect to be on todays roads.

Since I own too many bikes......I have 2 vintage bikes that are very comfortable on today’s roads. One is the Gold Star, the other is my 65 Lightning Clubman replica - which has a ball bearing crank.....it just rocks on the road



Im not sure if the Tbolt head i have is a earlier one... Im pretty sure the lightning head that came with the motor (unattached) may be but im gonna put the Tbolt head on to simplify things. My 68 lightning is great (21/43 sprockets) but i regularly ride with a friend that's got a Tbolt and find that he's got no problem keeping up during acceleration and at higher speeds -and doesnt have to worry bout carbs going out of sink..
Im not sure what you mean by piston type oprv? Can you elaborate and maybe send me in the direction of who may carry it.
Thanks everyone for such great info! Having this board and everyone on it is such an asset!!

Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: drunkenmonkz] #762544
01/14/19 3:10 pm
01/14/19 3:10 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,226
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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West Yorkshire
NOS OPRV

You'd have to have a lot of things set right in your favor for a late head lightning to be much faster than your friends thunderbolt, the small port early heads do make a big difference. but choice is yours.... A pair of 28mm AMAL prem's on a small port head and providing they were set right in the first place shouldn't need touching again for a very long time.

Last edited by Allan Gill; 01/14/19 3:13 pm.

beerchug
Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: drunkenmonkz] #762546
01/14/19 3:16 pm
01/14/19 3:16 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,745
Mississauga, Ontario.
A
Adam M. Offline
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SRM oprv is a later, piston type, which Rich B. prefers, but Allan Gill doesn't smile.
I used an original piston type on mine 70 A65 which worked flawlessly.
You probably could buy one original from eBay or made in here.

You loose some top end with Thunderbolt head compare to 2 carb small port head, but get even more torque down low and in middle revs what counts more on the road.
I know because I used both of them in the same bike. I'm also strong believer in low compression engines giving you less vibes in the long run, specially if you like some longer rides.
My engine had 7.5 : 1 pistons and was a sweet unit with very easy starting and hard accelerating in stock Thunderbolt configuration.
In my opinion it's also essential to use hard Kibblewhite valves and guides when rebuilding a head and 3 angle job on the valve seats.
Those give much longer life that originals where exhaust valves / guides were gone after 2 seasons.
+1 to all of the above with special nod to 68-473 cam which I'm not sure is a part of your 65 engine.

Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: Adam M.] #762549
01/14/19 3:29 pm
01/14/19 3:29 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,226
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Originally Posted by Adam M.
SRM oprv is a later, piston type, which Rich B. prefers, but Allan Gill doesn't smile.
I used an original piston type on mine 70 A65 which worked flawlessly.
You probably could buy one original from eBay or made in here.

You loose some top end with Thunderbolt head compare to 2 carb small port head, but get even more torque down low and in middle revs what counts more on the road.
I know because I used both of them in the same bike. I'm also strong believer in low compression engines giving you less vibes in the long run, specially if you like some longer rides.
My engine had 7.5 : 1 pistons and was a sweet unit with very easy starting and hard accelerating in stock Thunderbolt configuration.
In my opinion it's also essential to use hard Kibblewhite valves and guides when rebuilding a head and 3 angle job on the valve seats.
Those give much longer life that originals where exhaust valves / guides were gone after 2 seasons.
+1 to all of the above with special nod to 68-473 cam which I'm not sure is a part of your 65 engine.



I think Rich only mentioned the piston type, I agree that it is a good addition.... Just not an all stainless version which galls and sticks.

All twin carb bikes came with the 473 cam inc A50's


beerchug
Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: drunkenmonkz] #762600
01/14/19 10:05 pm
01/14/19 10:05 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,745
Mississauga, Ontario.
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Adam M. Offline
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Ahhhhhhhhh, forgot about quite important electrical info.
Make yourself a gift and buy 3 phase stator and matching 3 phase regulator rectifier - no more deficit in battery charging / light department ever.

Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: drunkenmonkz] #762613
01/15/19 2:21 am
01/15/19 2:21 am
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 165
Lake Macquarie NSW Oz
ChrisX Offline
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Lake Macquarie NSW Oz
Does the Newby clutch and belt setup fit within the standard primary cases?

Chris


What's this thread?
Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: drunkenmonkz] #762620
01/15/19 4:23 am
01/15/19 4:23 am
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 25
portland or
D
drunkenmonkz Offline OP
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portland or
Fantastic information! Thanks guys!!

Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: drunkenmonkz] #762630
01/15/19 7:23 am
01/15/19 7:23 am
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 935
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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Posts: 935
Farnham, Surrey, UK
Good point about the 3 phase alternator stator and regulator/rectifier, well worth fitting.

Regarding the OPRV there were two types, initially there was a ball and spring arrangement which was superceded by a piston type. I believe the reasoning was that the piston type is better able to finely control the blow off pressure 50psi. The later piston type also fits BSA A7/A10/A50/A65/Triumph T120/T140/T100 and is part No.71.2370. As Allan says, try to find an original as the replica stainless types have a habit of galling/sticking.

The other point to consider is make sure the OPRV is screwed in sufficiently so that the groove in the OPRV aligns with the corresponding groove in the crankcase OPRV hole. This groove is where excess oil is dumped by the OPRV into the sump (on early bikes) or into the return line on later bikes. The two need to align else the excess oil wont have anywhere to go.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: ChrisX] #762639
01/15/19 12:08 pm
01/15/19 12:08 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,226
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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West Yorkshire
Originally Posted by ChrisX
Does the Newby clutch and belt setup fit within the standard primary cases?

Chris



It does Chris, my lightning has a 13mm spacer, it’s excessive of what’s required but the extra space is to accommodate the outrigger plate I have fitted as well. My mates with standard setup and Bob Newby fits with no spacer.

I keep thinking I’ll have a look at thinning my spacer down but never get round to it so don’t bother.


beerchug
Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: drunkenmonkz] #762640
01/15/19 1:57 pm
01/15/19 1:57 pm
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 25
portland or
D
drunkenmonkz Offline OP
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portland or
Fantastic information! Thanks guys!!

Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: ChrisX] #762662
01/15/19 8:35 pm
01/15/19 8:35 pm
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 72
Castleford , West Yorkshire Un...
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Ken Rowark Offline
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Castleford , West Yorkshire Un...
Yes it does, no spacer required and a great improvement

Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: Allan Gill] #762696
01/16/19 5:49 am
01/16/19 5:49 am
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 165
Lake Macquarie NSW Oz
ChrisX Offline
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Lake Macquarie NSW Oz
Originally Posted by Allan Gill

It does Chris, my lightning has a 13mm spacer, it’s excessive of what’s required but the extra space is to accommodate the outrigger plate I have fitted as well.


I recalled you made a spacer. That explains it thanks. In my case where everything inside the primary is toast the Newby makes sense.


What's this thread?
Re: Upgrading 64 a65 lightning motor. [Re: ChrisX] #762714
01/16/19 7:39 pm
01/16/19 7:39 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,226
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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West Yorkshire
Originally Posted by ChrisX
Originally Posted by Allan Gill

It does Chris, my lightning has a 13mm spacer, it’s excessive of what’s required but the extra space is to accommodate the outrigger plate I have fitted as well.


I recalled you made a spacer. That explains it thanks. In my case where everything inside the primary is toast the Newby makes sense.



No worries, your right if your buying from scratch then you might as well go with the upgrade. Or like me
I was fed up of redoing the 3 spring clutch.

I’ve slipped that in top gear from a standing start and it still pulled away (after a few hundred miles riding I was pretty tired by that point and forgot I was On reverse shifting) it’s suffered a lot of punishment and unlike the wet Bsa clutch it holds up without any worry or need for readjustment.


beerchug

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