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Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ricochetrider] #762222 01/11/19 1:41 am
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I guess that my bottom line goes something like this:
We live in what are supposed to be free democratic societies.
Anyone can make and offer for sale whatever they like.
If enough people buy it then this is a success.
If enough people do not buy it then it is a failure.
It is up to the individual and IMHO that is exactly how it should be.
Lannis will not buy the "new BSA".
I probably will not buy the "new BSA".
But other people will buy the "new BSA".
Freedom of choice is great and the capitalist system sorts out the wheat from the chaff.
Again--just my two cents worth.

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Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: Tridentman] #762223 01/11/19 1:52 am
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Originally Posted by Tridentman
I guess that my bottom line goes something like this:
We live in what are supposed to be free democratic societies.
Anyone can make and offer for sale whatever they like.
If enough people buy it then this is a success.
If enough people do not buy it then it is a failure.
It is up to the individual and IMHO that is exactly how it should be.
Lannis will not buy the "new BSA".
I probably will not buy the "new BSA".
But other people will buy the "new BSA".
Freedom of choice is great and the capitalist system sorts out the wheat from the chaff.
Again--just my two cents worth.


All true, but what's the fun in just reducing it to facts and listing them .... ?? I don't think anyone disagrees or has expressed disagreement with any of those line items.

One guy says "Mahindra is going to start making Mahindra bikes and calling them BSAs. I think it's a good idea and I'm looking forward to seeing them!"

Another guy responds "I think the bikes are just going to be standard Asian bikes with a decal on them. I'm not looking forward to it and I think it will fail."

Neither one of those sentiments takes away anyone's freedom, insults anyone, affects democracy or choice or the free exercise of capitalism in any way. But Lord, people think it does ... !

Lannis


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Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ricochetrider] #762227 01/11/19 2:31 am
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I guess what I am saying underneath my previous posting goes along the lines of:
Relax and don't get your knickers in a twist--if you like an Indian BSA then buy it--if you don't then don't buy it--but everyone respect the fact that the other guy can decide for himself.
Lets all just sit back and see what happens-- no big deal.

Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ricochetrider] #762231 01/11/19 4:36 am
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Huh.
I'd say that in today's world, with motorcycling, in general, supposedly in decline, anybody anywhere producing motorcycles is doing all of us a favor- just in their attempt to further the sport, if not a time honored brand.
That,said... Even a failed effort is still an effort.

As many times as Indian failed, it is alive and strong now, and in good hands.
Royal Enfield is alive and strong.
Triumph is alive and strong
Norton is alive and strong
Somebody built some new Brough Superiors.
Somebody made some replica Metisse Triumphs
Honda brought back the CB series bikes
Many manufactures have "retro" models in their line ups.
Some manufacturers are taking direct design cues from custom builders to create interesting and innovative motorcycles.

The door is wide open and the sky's the limit.
Anything is possible, everything is within reach.
I wish Mahindra nothing but the very best in their efforts with the *new* BSAs.
Succeed or fail, at least they have the balls to try.


"It is no measure of health, to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ricochetrider] #762260 01/11/19 3:03 pm
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Lannis,

I can not agree with you more given the past history of thieves and miscreants attempting to resurrect long fabled brands for a quick profit - Excelsior Henderson, the New Mexico Indian venture, too many Brough Superior interations, even Greeves!

However, where I see a fault in your logic is that the prior listed efforts were all severely hampered by a lack of capital, and in my opinion especially for Excelsior, gross flaws in their business models. One could even make the argument that the modern Norton is severely limited by lack of funds that make their efforts tenuous and their pricing out of reach.

If one is to believe the rumblings, its a bad time to be in the motorcycle business in North America. I can only keep my fingers crossed they come up with something that has more in common with the Royal Enfield twins than some ridiculous over the top design. Who knows, my wife keeps suggesting that I purchase a new machine so I can ride more than wrench - as soon as the caveat that I have to sell off some of "my precious to me" collection drops I am in the market for either an Enfield or an Indian which have done a good job of being reborn so to speak.

Other than that, you are completely off your rocker as you grew up on the frontier above the fall line smile.


'78 T140V
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Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: Geoff] #762261 01/11/19 3:19 pm
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Originally Posted by Geoff
Lannis,

I can not agree with you more given the past history of thieves and miscreants attempting to resurrect long fabled brands for a quick profit - Excelsior Henderson, the New Mexico Indian venture, too many Brough Superior interations, even Greeves!

However, where I see a fault in your logic is that the prior listed efforts were all severely hampered by a lack of capital, and in my opinion especially for Excelsior, gross flaws in their business models. One could even make the argument that the modern Norton is severely limited by lack of funds that make their efforts tenuous and their pricing out of reach.



That's true. But think about this for a minute. Say Mahindra makes a new model of motorcycle, using new technology, deciding that it will be "bare and spare" by current standards (minimal plastic, no auto-adjustable suspension, simple EFI and ECU etc), that it will use styling cues from 60 years ago, but in all other ways is designed to be a 2019 Rider's Bike. And they decide to call it the "Mahindra Chakravaat", or use the English equivalent "Mahindra Cyclone". It's either a good, popular motorcycle, or maybe it isn't; as you say, the market is wobbly at the moment. But it lives or dies by what it is, and good for the Mahindra designers if they made a good motorcycle.

But then someone says "Hey, I know how we'll sell these things. We spent a bunch of money buying the BSA name and logo, let's call it a BSA! We'll suck in a bunch of people based on whatever image remains from 1966!"

Doesn't that seem a bit shallow? Do I personally want to be someone who got "tolled in" to buying a bike because of what they painted on the side, not what it is? All I'm saying is that I'm not impressed by that sort of attempted manipulation.

Originally Posted by Geoff


Other than that, you are completely off your rocker as you grew up on the frontier above the fall line smile.


It's a fair cop, but society is to blame.

Lannis


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Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ricochetrider] #762267 01/11/19 4:17 pm
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If only they made the new BSA's leak oil and vibrate themselves to pieces ,then at least they could proudly wear the badge ..

Is an I-Pace a Jaguar ? :
Indian owned , built in Austria , burns no oil , Chinese batteries , and worst of all : nothing Witworth ! ( sacrilege ..)

Last edited by ludwig; 01/11/19 5:39 pm.
Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: Lannis] #762294 01/11/19 8:38 pm
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Originally Posted by Lannis
That's true. But think about this for a minute. Say Mahindra makes a new model of motorcycle, using new technology, deciding that it will be "bare and spare" by current standards (minimal plastic, no auto-adjustable suspension, simple EFI and ECU etc), that it will use styling cues from 60 years ago, but in all other ways is designed to be a 2019 Rider's Bike. And they decide to call it the "Mahindra Chakravaat", or use the English equivalent "Mahindra Cyclone". It's either a good, popular motorcycle, or maybe it isn't; as you say, the market is wobbly at the moment. But it lives or dies by what it is, and good for the Mahindra designers if they made a good motorcycle.

But then someone says "Hey, I know how we'll sell these things. We spent a bunch of money buying the BSA name and logo, let's call it a BSA! We'll suck in a bunch of people based on whatever image remains from 1966!"

Doesn't that seem a bit shallow? Do I personally want to be someone who got "tolled in" to buying a bike because of what they painted on the side, not what it is? All I'm saying is that I'm not impressed by that sort of attempted manipulation.
That's precisely what Polaris did with "Victory" and "Indian", and using a well-known brand from the past seems to be a winning strategy.

Some things to bear in mind with BSA:
The US was a different market. In most of the world, BSA had a reputation for producing reliable, middle of the road products which were good value for money and well supported. Rudge, Velocette, Norton, Vincent, Triumph, etc produced motorcycles for people who wanted to go fast - BSA produced motorcycles for people who wanted to go to work.
There are still a lot of M20s and M21s being used regularly on the sub-continent, the Middle East, and in SE Asia. BSA's biggest seller was the Bantam, which was the Honda step-through of its day.
BSA also produced small numbers of high performance machines, mostly post-War, which are the machines that silly old goats like us have been keeping in front of people in the wealthier countries for decades.
The size of the potential markets in developing areas is staggering, both for value for money commuters and higher margin machines for the growing middle classes. The minute production costs are also hard to comprehend. The cost per unit sales of buying old names with ready-made brand recognition in the target markets is vanishingly small.

From what I've read, Mahindra's approach will be to badge the smaller commuter machines as Jawa, and the larger, more sporting models as BSA. From their point of view, the name on the tank is a marketing exercise. For all I know, they will also produce a line of cruisers badged as Mahindra


Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ricochetrider] #762299 01/11/19 9:09 pm
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Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ludwig] #762301 01/11/19 9:13 pm
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Originally Posted by ludwig
Indeed it was, although with some modifications.

Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ricochetrider] #762308 01/11/19 9:47 pm
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I would buy one if it was like the new Enfield 650 but with a BSA tank. Mahindra are big , bigger than BSA, they have made more Enfields than Enfield ever did. I want a big twin , with decent brakes, that big onboard gyro central flywheel, 5 gears, top handling and adaptability. If it comes with extra weight , pie crusts and seams, not interested.
If it looked a bit like an old Beesa through squinty eyes, then fine.


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Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ricochetrider] #762309 01/11/19 9:54 pm
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If it was me . And the world is grateful that it isnae, i would re invent Ariel, and relaunch the Arrow with a Composite beam frame , direct injection disc valve two stroke twin and big cap re gen front brakes.What you lose on entry comes back on exit.
.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 01/11/19 11:59 pm.

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Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: gavin eisler] #762317 01/11/19 10:43 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
I would buy one if it was like the new Enfield 650 but with a BSA tank. Mahindra are big , bigger than BSA, they have made more Enfields than Enfield ever did. I want a big twin , with decent brakes, that big onboard gyro central flywheel, 5 gears, top handling and adaptability. If it comes with extra weight , pie crusts and seams, not interested.
If it looked a bit like an old Beesa through squinty eyes, then fine.


Exactly why I bought a Hinkley T100 in 2017. I would have bought it no matter what the name on the tank because it fits my needs and looks the way I think a motorcycle should. As far as trading on the name, the bike was built in Thailand from globally sourced parts so it's a stretch to even think call it English made. English inspired maybe. It might have a visible seam or two, but definitely no extra weight or pie crusts I can find. grin


1960 BSA A10
2007 Suzuki Bandit
1957 A10
(Used to be a Triumph here)
71 Norton Commando
17 Triumph Bonneville

Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ricochetrider] #762437 01/13/19 4:08 am
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...what I do not get it is if new Norton is lack of found but somehow still manages to produce an small quantity of motorcycles and survive, why old Triumphs with gobs of money from the government fund etc could not?
Is supposed that now is more expensive to have a factory (due to all the taxes, robots et all ) than 40 years ago.

New Triumph (also British) bought directly from Triumph the name and rights putting Harris in the work meanwhile, so is very different than a given company decides to buy a name out of the blue without any connections or history.

Regarding the models: why Honda still has the CB? well, like most brands are in the know right now, plenty of us like motorcycles that look like one, not like a bird and many like me, are not in the need of a "specialized" "technical" pseudo bike like these "dual sports" to perform a long trip.
Except for the super sports bikes (many now consider these ones as the only new bikes, the other is just retro...) most do not need anything more than a cb1100 or a HD 1700 or a Triumph 1200 or smaller bikes, because with all these non fairing ones you just have all the power that you can handle and enough road speed.
But I understand that the companies or factories need to invent always a new model or niche to keep the industry on the go.

Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: reverb] #762439 01/13/19 4:56 am
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Originally Posted by reverb
...what I do not get it is if new Norton is lack of found but somehow still manages to produce an small quantity of motorcycles and survive, why old Triumphs with gobs of money from the government fund etc could not?
Is supposed that now is more expensive to have a factory (due to all the taxes, robots et all ) than 40 years ago.



There's been a lot of books written about the demise of Triumph and BSA ... people draw different conclusions about the base reasons but they certainly include the "Perfect Storm" of:

1) Continuing to make a bike designed in 1938 with 1950s performance in a 1974 world of Kawasaki Z1s, Yamaha XS650s, and Honda CB-750s. They weren't even close.

2) Hidebound management, still managing as if they were running a 1830s woolen mill using smock-clad peasants, never believing that those little funny-looking men from the Far East could EVER do anything to compete with them, and playing ducks and drakes with the money

3) Socialist workers unions that helped cut their own throats in a sort of a "class war", believing that there was tons of money about and they just needed to get some, because the sun never set on the Empire.

In contrast, the modern Norton is being built to fill a real demand, their management is smart, and the workers are smart and often part of the business. A huge difference from the dinosaur Triumph .... !

Lannis


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Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ricochetrider] #762443 01/13/19 12:59 pm
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So it's not that BSA is make a "come back", it's more like a new "retro" styled bike using the BSA name...Just like the Hinkley Triumph has nothing to do with the Meriden Triumph. The company logos aren't even the same...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ricochetrider] #762468 01/13/19 7:56 pm
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...hi Lannis, xs650 are not better than the later Bonnevilles, in any way.
CB are kind of a car engine

Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #762470 01/13/19 8:10 pm
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
So it's not that BSA is make a "come back", it's more like a new "retro" styled bike using the BSA name...Just like the Hinkley Triumph has nothing to do with the Meriden Triumph. The company logos aren't even the same...
John Bloor bought the Triumph name from the receivers and hired some key staff from the Co-Op, so there is continuity there. The Wikipedia article is even reasonably accurate.
There are a few more links in BSA's chain of ownership before Mahindra, and a much longer gap in manufacturing BSAs.

Whether the new BSAs will be retro-styled is still a matter of conjecture, although the concept drawings certainly were.

Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: Shane in Oz] #762478 01/13/19 9:51 pm
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Originally Posted by Shane in Oz
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
So it's not that BSA is make a "come back", it's more like a new "retro" styled bike using the BSA name...Just like the Hinkley Triumph has nothing to do with the Meriden Triumph. The company logos aren't even the same...
John Bloor bought the Triumph name from the receivers and hired some key staff from the Co-Op, so there is continuity there. The Wikipedia article is even reasonably accurate.
There are a few more links in BSA's chain of ownership before Mahindra, and a much longer gap in manufacturing BSAs.

Whether the new BSAs will be retro-styled is still a matter of conjecture, although the concept drawings certainly were.

I see it differently that you....I see Triumph as it was known ,finished when the Co Op was formed..Then was receivership and Bloor buys it up and moves foward with totally new machines ......Who has the rights to the original Triumph logo?


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #762483 01/13/19 10:39 pm
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
I see it differently that you....I see Triumph as it was known ,finished when the Co Op was formed..Then was receivership and Bloor buys it up and moves foward with totally new machines ......Who has the rights to the original Triumph logo?
Pre Co-Op Triumph was part of NVT, which was formed by a merger of the Norton Villiers division of Manganese Bronze Holdings and the motorcycle component of the Automotive Division of the BSA Group. BSA bought Triumph in 1951. NVT planned to stop production of the Triumph twins and close the Meriden plant, which triggered the sit-in & blockade which led to the formation of the Co-Op.
So, curious as to which pre Co-Op point is your cutoff for the end of "Triumph"?
Apart from the product differentiation aspect of having 3 cylinder engines, there isn't much in common technically between the Small Heath / Meriden Triumphs and Hinkley. The retro twins seem to be a much more recent move to take advantage of nostalgia.
Brand-wise, the decision to licence twin production to Les Harris while a new range was being developed could be seen as similar to retention of the singles while the new twin range was being introduced in the late 1930s.

I have a vague recollection that Bloor either wasn't interested in the old Triumph logo, or just wasn't interested enough to pay the price it was bid to. It's possible that John Nelson got it, along with the rights to the technical publications, or that may just have been a non-exclusive right to use the logos.

Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: Shane in Oz] #762500 01/14/19 12:37 am
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Originally Posted by Shane in Oz

So, curious as to which pre Co-Op point is your cutoff for the end of "Triumph"?.


There many books on the subject and many opinions .. To me, when a factory is occupied by militant workers for about 1.5 years and production stops,and in the USA no one has any spare parts or new bikes to sell,,,,Triumph was finished right then and there and what came out of that until 1983 was just like cutting the head from a chicken..It's dead but runs around a bit before it totally stops moving..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ricochetrider] #762505 01/14/19 1:14 am
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i wouldn't really call it running. the chickens i de-head just sort of flounce around.

do yours really run?

maybe it depends on the chicken.


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: kevin roberts] #762529 01/14/19 11:26 am
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Originally Posted by kevin roberts
i wouldn't really call it running. the chickens i de-head just sort of flounce around.

do yours really run?

maybe it depends on the chicken.


Yes, they flop around.....A drywall compound bucket works nicely...Just cut a hole in the bottom big enough for the chicken's head...Flip the bucket over the unlucky bird..They will always stick their head through the hole,then off with the head... And this is sorta what happened to Triumph....


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: ricochetrider] #762538 01/14/19 2:15 pm
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i never thought of that. i just whack them with the hatchet.

we used to have a lab rat guillotine at school that worked like your bucket. put the rat inside, wait til it tried to squeeze through the little hole, then push down on the blade.


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: BSA Comeback, USA Launch? [Re: Lannis] #762552 01/14/19 3:43 pm
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Originally Posted by Lannis
Originally Posted by Geoff
Lannis,

I can not agree with you more given the past history of thieves and miscreants attempting to resurrect long fabled brands for a quick profit - Excelsior Henderson, the New Mexico Indian venture, too many Brough Superior interations, even Greeves!

However, where I see a fault in your logic is that the prior listed efforts were all severely hampered by a lack of capital, and in my opinion especially for Excelsior, gross flaws in their business models. One could even make the argument that the modern Norton is severely limited by lack of funds that make their efforts tenuous and their pricing out of reach.



That's true. But think about this for a minute. Say Mahindra makes a new model of motorcycle, using new technology, deciding that it will be "bare and spare" by current standards (minimal plastic, no auto-adjustable suspension, simple EFI and ECU etc), that it will use styling cues from 60 years ago, but in all other ways is designed to be a 2019 Rider's Bike. And they decide to call it the "Mahindra Chakravaat", or use the English equivalent "Mahindra Cyclone". It's either a good, popular motorcycle, or maybe it isn't; as you say, the market is wobbly at the moment. But it lives or dies by what it is, and good for the Mahindra designers if they made a good motorcycle.

But then someone says "Hey, I know how we'll sell these things. We spent a bunch of money buying the BSA name and logo, let's call it a BSA! We'll suck in a bunch of people based on whatever image remains from 1966!"

Doesn't that seem a bit shallow? Do I personally want to be someone who got "tolled in" to buying a bike because of what they painted on the side, not what it is? All I'm saying is that I'm not impressed by that sort of attempted manipulation.

Originally Posted by Geoff


Other than that, you are completely off your rocker as you grew up on the frontier above the fall line smile.


It's a fair cop, but society is to blame.

Lannis


Lannis - I see your point. I think using the old brand is a 'crutch' or a way of accelerating their business model. The Mahindra Charavaat would have a hard time selling, whereas a BSA Spitfire would get you past a lot of barriers to at least give you a chance in selling some of them and not using Tractor Supply to do it. What doesn't bother me so much is when these people come out of the woodwork without the capital to even make a decent go of it. The BSA Regal looked pretty cool 10 - 15 years ago, but the whole thing came to naught.

Now I only await someone to reintroduce the "Cyclone" brand, that would be something wink.

And I can't fault you too much for being one of those frontier guys, I at least went to high school above the falls smile


'78 T140V
'74 Commando
'69 TR6R
'67 Starfire
'64 Greeves TES
'58 Allstate (Puch) 175
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