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Re: about words and languages [Re: Lannis] #758930 12/11/18 5:28 pm
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Originally Posted by Lannis
Originally Posted by r.bartlett
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
Followed by coffee , potatoes, chillii and cocoa.


coffee is from Turkish
potato & cocoa are Spanish
Chilli is Mexican

Not sure what you're alluding too here?


Nay lad you're off there; it's a fair cop on "coffee", which is of Arab origin and didn't show up in the Americas until brought here by Europeans ...

... but "potato" is from Carib Indian "batata" to Spanish "patata". Cocoa and Chili are both of Aztec origin, and again the Spanish borrowed the words directly from their Nahuatl language.

Etymology was one of my favorite college classes, you won't catch me out on that ... !

Lannis


Which none of the above are native North Indian words or derivatives of, which was the original premise was it not?

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Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #758931 12/11/18 5:36 pm
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I always struggled with learning language. I have family from both Lincolnshire and Hampshire and grew up in Germany and Hong Kong. My English is somewhat bastardised and now further still by the living here in N/Z. My Wife on the other hand is Indian, English for her is a second language yet she can switch seamlessly from Hindi to perfect English in the blink of a eye. It's an incredible skill.

Rod


So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!
Re: about words and languages [Re: R Moulding] #758933 12/11/18 5:44 pm
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Originally Posted by R Moulding

I always struggled with learning language. I have family from both Lincolnshire and Hampshire and grew up in Germany and Hong Kong. My English is somewhat bastardised and now further still by the living here in N/Z. My Wife on the other hand is Indian, English for her is a second language yet she can switch seamlessly from Hindi to perfect English in the blink of a eye. It's an incredible skill.

Rod

After 54 years of living in England, I now live in a Spanish speaking country, the word tonto comes up frequently. :-/

Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #758945 12/11/18 7:05 pm
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HB--yes--I do think that it is easier for a Brit to understand an American than vice versa.
Americans tend to be more direct IME and therefore easier to understand.
Brits by contrast tend to use more nuanced language which to fully take on board you have to be used to it to get the full flavor of the meaning.

In US there are problems in understanding some accents such as the south west.
But these are minor compared with UK.
For a country that would fit into Texas there are sop many different (and difficult) accents.
As has already been stated to try to fully understand a Cockney, a Scouser, a Geordie etc is very difficult for someone coming from just another part of the UK.

Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #758953 12/11/18 8:25 pm
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Yes, Tridentman. yet the English call we in the USA the "provincials!"

Re: about words and languages [Re: r.bartlett] #758954 12/11/18 8:31 pm
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[/quote]

we have no real trouble understanding Americans except perhaps a deep southern drawl. No one understands Glaswegian scouse or geordie.[/quote]

I understand scouse and glaswegian, geordie is my native tongue. I think that the regional accents around Britain, are starting to blend, when I started college/work you could tell with a few exceptions which town on Tyneside somebody came from, now its getting blurry,although you still can with some places. It was similair in glasgow in the 80's when I lived there. I think that increased mobility between areas of cities/towns, where people previously often lived, worked an played in one area emphasized a local accent, means those accents in an accent are now merging. American language is increasingly being incorporated in to the English thanks to the influence of television ,film, and internet. I was out on the Douglas last weekend and stopped for fuel, a lad in the petrol station, a mopeed rider asked about the bike and in the course of the conversation said the front "fender" looked odd. I had to reply that was because it was a base and not acoustic. just hope he's not googling coustic.

Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #758957 12/11/18 8:54 pm
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reverb Offline OP
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...hi guys, regarding English; I think the problem is that is a "pronunciation language" (hence all those intelligible dialects) You write one way BUT speak or talk other way...
In many languages the written letters are pronounced the same way. "A" is a not ei as in English; Spanish, Portuguese, Japanese, several African languages and many Euro languages speak the same that is written.

The USA English is easier because has less accent so is less confusing for the foreigner.

Spanish language is grammatically more complex but most languages are complicated to understand BEYOND the simpler structure that most people utilize.
Because of that is that I doubt that the average people (like I posted in the first comment) know 20000 words! I really doubt.
In fact, most people in these times are cutting down all the languages and only uses a few thousands words and the simple present, simple past and future so they really do not know their native language actually. Hence, most cannot know how to think; how to reasoning; due to you need to go deep in your main language to form an opinion (with credibility) of something.

Lannis; "patata" (Potato) is an invent of the Spanish; Was "Papa", is and will be.

Re: about words and languages [Re: Lannis] #758960 12/11/18 9:13 pm
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Originally Posted by Lannis
I'm glad I learned English growing up, because if I had to learn this irregular, no-organization language now, I could never do it.


Amen !

I teach English as a Second Language (ESOL) 2-3 days a week to legal immigrants. In my class are a few Mexicans, but the bulk are Thai, Laotian, Albanian, Argentinean, Indian, and Congolese working on English, their GED, and US citizenship. That's a good mix for a small town of 4,100 people.

Most of these people are professionals, or college students who came on a family visa. They are VERY hard workers, studying as much as 16 hours per day to gain the mastery they need to move ahead. Until I started working with them I had no idea just how complex our language really is. Examples...

► "One"... Pronounced as "won", but where is the W sound coming from ?
► The declension "Ring, Rang, Rung" might lead you to think of "Bring, Brang, Brung", but there are no such words. Instead it's "Bring, Brought, Brought".
► "I lead you today" and the past tense, "I lead you yesterday." The past tense of "lead" changes sound, but is spelled exactly the same way. Where does that come from ? Why isn't it spelled "led" ?
► The most commonly used sound in the English language (the "schwa") came to us from Hebrew. Although the sound is a fixed "uh" (as in Homer Simpson's "Duh!"), it can be spelled with ANY of the 6 vowels ! This complicates English spelling for even the native speakers. This incloodes me.
► Pronounce every syllable, unless the word happens to be "camera", which in English is pronounced "cam-ra". And oh yes, the same silent Schwa syllable appears in "actually", "vegetable", "separate", "different", "basically", "interesting", "evening", "family", and "chocolate" !! (Learn more here.)

After being a professional technical writer for 5 years, having written scores of motorcycle technical articles, not to mention 11,000 responses here, I believed I knew my native language fairly well. Teaching ESOL has shown me that I still have a long, long way to go !!


laughing


Don't hide 'em, Ride 'em !!

RF Whatley
Cornelia, GA
Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #758966 12/11/18 9:43 pm
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"The Story of English" was a terrific documentary by Robert McNeil on PBS many moons ago. Check it out here https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...HXooDk0QBQgrKAA&biw=1024&bih=463

Re: about words and languages [Re: r.bartlett] #758994 12/12/18 3:09 am
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Originally Posted by r.bartlett
Originally Posted by Lannis
Originally Posted by r.bartlett
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
Followed by coffee , potatoes, chillii and cocoa.


coffee is from Turkish
potato & cocoa are Spanish
Chilli is Mexican

Not sure what you're alluding too here?


Nay lad you're off there; it's a fair cop on "coffee", which is of Arab origin and didn't show up in the Americas until brought here by Europeans ...

... but "potato" is from Carib Indian "batata" to Spanish "patata". Cocoa and Chili are both of Aztec origin, and again the Spanish borrowed the words directly from their Nahuatl language.

Etymology was one of my favorite college classes, you won't catch me out on that ... !

Lannis


Which none of the above are native North Indian words or derivatives of, which was the original premise was it not?


It's the premise now that you've realized that you were wrong and have gone back and invented the "North Indian", whatever the heck that is, and invented a premise that makes you feel better. But no harm done.

Lannis


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #759015 12/12/18 11:06 am
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Just handed me passport to a customs officer, on yer Jack...? He asked. Yup, says I. Great he said, someone that can understand what I'm saying...


I'm from the SOUTH, the Deep South
Re: about words and languages [Re: Kent Shaun] #759025 12/12/18 12:41 pm
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Originally Posted by Kent Shaun
Just handed me passport to a customs officer, on yer Jack...? He asked. Yup, says I. Great he said, someone that can understand what I'm saying...

Is the origin of that not Cockney Shaun?

Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #759028 12/12/18 1:16 pm
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Why do people speak with accents? I grew up near Newark NJ and most people sound like the characters in the "Sopranos" TV series..But go 5 miles over into NYC and it was a different accent and a few miles into Brooklyn and another accent.. .To a person not from the area they sound similar, but we all knew the difference..When In the military I met guys from all over the USA. and they all had some sort of regional accent...My best friends at that time were from the deep South...It took me awhile to fully understand them, and we all had fun laughing at each other..Here in western NY state, the accent is nasal and a word like fire is pronounced "Fi-ure". It's odd the accent is more obivious in women...I met Kevin Roberts from this forum and he has a combination Oklahoma/ California accent..
I find the accent of Southern women to be very soothing...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: about words and languages [Re: Kent Shaun] #759045 12/12/18 3:24 pm
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Originally Posted by Kent Shaun
Just handed me passport to a customs officer, on yer Jack...? He asked. Yup, says I. Great he said, someone that can understand what I'm saying...


No one would ever figure out why "on yer Jack" means are you traveling by yourself ... ! I take it back, cockney rhyming slang takes a mental agility to figure out that makes plain English look dead easy ....

Lannis


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: about words and languages [Re: Lannis] #759053 12/12/18 4:09 pm
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Jack Jones Lannis lad, it's easy...! On yer Jack Jones...On your Own, but you cut out the last bit, so it becomes, on yer Jack... wink

Get over here, and we'll clock ya boat as we go through all the shpill, it'll be a giggle old chum. I still have a chuckle about Wade in New Zealand, when I asked a bloke in the museum we were in, where's the Khazi mate..? Wade looked at me as if I was speaking French, the bloke said, over there to the left... laughing

So I says to Wade, don't worry I'm not having a Pony, I only want a Jimmy... grin

He was left with that vacant look he always has... facepalm


I'm from the SOUTH, the Deep South
Re: about words and languages [Re: RF Whatley] #759065 12/12/18 5:36 pm
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Originally Posted by RF Whatley

► "I lead you today" and the past tense, "I lead you yesterday." The past tense of "lead" changes sound, but is spelled exactly the same way. Where does that come from ? Why isn't it spelled "led" ?


It is spelled "led" is it not? That's what I was taught at least.

Re: about words and languages [Re: Lannis] #759123 12/13/18 12:47 am
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I understood it as "on yer Jack Malone "! Cockney rhyming slang for "alone" !
Actually, I got things a bit in a tangle, its "on yer Pat Malone" or " on yer Jack Jones "!

Last edited by Triless; 12/13/18 1:38 am. Reason: clarification
Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #759146 12/13/18 9:05 am
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Shaun, first time I asked my Kiwi Boss "Have you got a Dog in your Sky Gov?" was greeted with a similar vacant look! Interesting how rhyming slang made it's way into the English language.

Rod


So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth;
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth!
Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #759148 12/13/18 9:25 am
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And we have all heard of the way we can use existing sounds in the English vocabulary to rework 'fish':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti


Its an oldie, but relevant to this thread. And like others, I pity those trying to learn English, especially the swearing side in Australia. I don't know how they do it.

As an Australian, speaking in a laconic languid colonial lingo I find it impossible to decipher Scottish or Geordie, and even have trouble with the USA bad boys da hood speak!!!
So much so that I don't hold Billy Connelly or that cop show Macbeth etc in high esteem...the language barrier means I struggle and only get 1 word in 5 or 6 spoken. And da hood bangers, hustlers and pimps cannot even be speaking American English [or any other derivative].
BTW I have no problem understanding middle or upper society UK spoken English, Fawlty Towers, Inspector Morse, Midsomer etc etc AND I find American Texan/some southern accents, and West Coast much easier to understand than Bostonians and New Yorkers etc

And as for the average English person knowing 200000 words??? Shakespeare only used 17,677, many of these were newly coined, the rest just indecipherable.


To quote a well heard Australian song.... "Do you come from a land down under? Oh yeah, where woman blow and men chunder"

Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #759174 12/13/18 3:39 pm
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...hello Tridentt150v; actually they say 20 000 not 200 000. The English language they say to has 250 000. I doubt too.

Regarding the harder to understand English; seems that you guys never tried to learn Spanish...
Most methods are based on grammar; and English grammar is not difficult so most do not have problems with English learning.
Then as you say the accents problems; however; as I mentioned, almost all the people that want to learn other language only need these other languages for the normal or basic daily deals (like with your own native language) not to dictate a speech on the ONU.
Most do not need the dark corners etc that a given language would has.

Regarding accent what you see when hear a foreigner speaking English is the "plain" accent or lack off (except Indians) because, again, "A" is "A" in most languages not "EI" sound (for example)
The most incredible thing is that all that gibberish that we see in that video clip posted, actually if you read it is completely different to what it sounds.
And that in normal English no matter the accents (like here in the forum that all is written not spoken) when is on letters is all the same (except those "ME" instead the "MY" that Shaun write...but possibly is like whisky and whiskey)

Regarding Spanish and the accents; no matter what type of Spanish (not talking about slang) is all the same; because you cannot transform the letters. The only difference is that in some places is not so "plain" like in Cuba, Venezuela, Puerto Rico (These are the countries that have the worst pronunciation.

Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #759192 12/13/18 7:25 pm
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r.bartlett Offline
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quote]

Which none of the above are native North Indian words or derivatives of, which was the original premise was it not?[/quote]

It's the premise now that you've realized that you were wrong and have gone back and invented the "North Indian", whatever the heck that is, and invented a premise that makes you feel better. But no harm done.

Lannis

And skunk, bayou, hickory, woodchuck, totem, possum, raccoon, moose, caribou, canoe, pecans, persimmons, catalpa, tupelo, toboggan, squash, and half the place names on the East Coast .... and that's just a start ....

Lannis

Ok I admit your US English has lost me, I was of the understanding you were of the opinion that native North Indian (or indigenous if that's the preferred modern day terminology) were the major factor on the differences of US/UK English. You even went as far to give examples. Gavin gave other examples which you agreed with and I negated each as words from other languages. (your rebuff of potato as Spanish was refuted here btw)

So far from conceding my point that US English was more insular and retained older versions of words than English English (fender wing, bonnet hood, trunk boot etc ) although from a brief research the major differences probably came about by Websters simplification of English to make it easier to use.



I bid you well kind sir. :-)


Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #759197 12/13/18 8:47 pm
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I thought we were all supposed to be speaking Esperanto by now and avoiding all this confusion. I read it in Time magazine when I was in school so it must be true right?


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Re: about words and languages [Re: Norri Robertson] #759205 12/13/18 9:40 pm
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Originally Posted by Norri Robertson
Originally Posted by RF Whatley

► "I lead you today" and the past tense, "I lead you yesterday." The past tense of "lead" changes sound, but is spelled exactly the same way. Where does that come from ? Why isn't it spelled "led" ?


It is spelled "led" is it not? That's what I was taught at least.


you can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be led

Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #759209 12/13/18 10:07 pm
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Originally Posted by reverb
.

Lannis; "patata" (Potato) is an invent of the Spanish; Was "Papa", is and will be.


Answers one question (depending on whether the "batata" [Carib sweet-potato] was the source of the Spanish "patata" or whether they're different words entirely), but then the word "Papa" is the word for “potato” in Quechuan, or Incan.

Maybe no one will really know, but it doesn't seem reasonable that the Spanish, who had never seen anything like a potato, actually invented the word for it when millions of Incans and other Indians had been talking about them and eating them for millenia .... ?

Lannis


I'll believe that it's a crisis when the people who tell me it's a crisis start acting like it's a crisis ...
Re: about words and languages [Re: reverb] #759230 12/14/18 1:35 am
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in america i think most people only have some 20,000.

30,000 for people who use words for special purposes.


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
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