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Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
panman #643463 03/08/16 10:42 pm
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Originally Posted by panman
Is it glued in with a small drop of epoxy then or does the tensional stiffness of the wire hold it in place.... I've read a number of your articles...
Thanks for your very nice comment.

Glue is neither necessary nor wanted. If you glued it in place you likely would damage the coil and/or slip ring when later trying to remove the slip ring. The coil itself is quite stiff so the hole in the slip ring is more than sufficient to keep the wire from going anywhere.

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Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #653835 05/22/16 8:27 pm
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APPENDIX VIII: Rebuilding a Lucas Magdyno

Since the internals of the magneto portion of a Magdyno are very similar to the Lucas K2F of Appendix II and Lucas KNC1 of Appendix VII, as well as the Bosch ZEV, much of the information for rebuilding it is the same. Because of this I won't repeat the description of disassembly and replacement of the condenser. I'll take a different approach and instead of the usual instructions to "reassemble in reverse order of disassembly," I'll suggest you disassemble in reverse order of assembly.

Although the resistances of the primary (0.72 Ohms) and secondary (5.5 kOhms) were what they should be, there still could have been an internal short between windings. If there were a current would flow through that path likely causing the damage to increase with time until the coil ceased to function. To check for this I used a growler, which most people think is only good for checking dynamos. I forgot to photograph this test, but the following shows an armature from a Dixie magneto I recently checked as a favor for someone who will be riding a 1916 Indian in the upcoming Cannonball Rally.
[Linked Image]
A growler generates a 60 Hz AC magnetic field in the 'V'-shaped cradle. If a closed loop of wire were in the cradle that field would generate an AC magnetic field in it. Although an armature has 10,000 loops of wire, unless there is a short there is no electrical connection between any of them so no magnetic field will generated in a good armature. However, if there is a generated field (i.e. a short) it will result in an AC force on any nearby steel. A hacksaw blade serves as a convenient detector since any such force can be easily felt when it is held next to a bad armature. The armature in this Magdyno passed the growler test so there are no internal shorts in it.

After replacing the condenser the end cap of the armature was screwed on, followed by the slip ring, oil slinger, appropriate shims (more on this in a moment), race, and a retaining ring that I forgot to have in place for the following photograph of another Magdyno armature:
[Linked Image]
The shims are necessary to give the proper end float of 0.001"-0.003" for the ring cam. This sandwich is assembled with a press and tool in the shape of a deep-drive socket, although a socket would be fine. I don't recommend beating the race on using a hammer instead of a press except in an emergency.

The next photograph shows how the outer race goes into an insulating paper cup in the end cap. The same is the case in the main housing. A new paper cup is at the left.
[Linked Image]

The next photograph lays out some important items. At the front is the assembled magneto with an indicator showing how the end float of the armature is measured. At the top right is a pile of armature shims. The ones in this pile vary in thickness from 0.007" to 0.049". At the top left are shims for the end cap of 0.004", 0.005" and 0.006" thickness. These two types of shims can be used in combination to give the correct end float.
[Linked Image]

Note that the fitting for attaching the advance/retard cable, in the endcap at the left of the unit in the photograph, is on the same side of the housing as the HT pickup. In this location tightening the cable advances the spark for this magneto (which rotates counter-clockwise viewed from the end with the drive gear). Endcaps with the fitting on the other side, where tightening the cable retards the spark, also exist so you need to pay attention to both the direction of rotation as well as action of the advance/retard cable in order to set the timing correctly. In the case of this magneto the lever on the handlebar will have to tighten the wire to have it in the fully advanced position when setting the static timing.

After the bearings were lubricated with Sta-Lube 'Hi-Temp Disc Brake Bearing Grease' the armature was placed in the housing, the end cap attached, and the end float measured. If there had been negative end float, i.e. the end cap didn't sit flush with the housing, the gap would have been measured with feeler gauges and the correct 0.001"-0.003" float obtained by use of one or more shims under the end cap. Or, the race could have been removed from the armature and thinner shims installed there to remove the excess float. If there had been positive end float larger than 0.003" the only choice would have been thicker shims on the armature.

If the race is removed to change the thickness of the shims the end float has to be measured again because even if the same shims are used it is difficult to reproducibly position the race to 0.001". Because of this it is typically faster to try to achieve a negative end float with the armature shims and then make the final adjustment using end cap shims.

Don't forget to replace the earth brush:
[Linked Image]

After the magneto had been reassembled it needed to be remagnetized to recover its full strength. As the next diagram shows an iron plate with four holes in it needs to be added to the magnet pole pieces to clear the pegs in the bottom of this type of magneto.
[Linked Image]

However, while Lucas says a flat plate is sufficient when using their recommended 65,000-70,000 A-turn electromagnet, it's possible to do even better. In my case, I designed my electromagnet to produce a ~15-20% greater field of 80,000 A-turns. Further, the next photograph shows the iron plate I machined placed against one of the magnet's pole pieces. As can be seen the side of the plate that fits against the base of the magneto isn't flat.
[Linked Image]

The left side of the next composite shows the bottom of the Magdyno housing and the right side shows it with the plate in place. The shape milled into the plate significantly reduces the "air gap" between the pole face and the internal magnetic structure of the magneto which increases the field that magnetizes the Alnico. The positioning of this plate isn't arbitrary; I machined it so the pole pieces would align with the location of the Alnico magnet within the magneto body.
[Linked Image]
This difference in "air gap" might not seem significant, but it is. Think about the force needed to pull a magnet from a refrigerator versus the much smaller force needed when there are only a few pieces of paper between it and the refrigerator.

The magneto with the extra plate was placed in the electromagnet and the field ramped up to its maximum value several times to leave the largest possible remnant magnetization in the Alnico.
[Linked Image]

As an aside, while the Magdyno is vertical in the electromagnet whereas Lucas shows it horizontal, magnetism doesn't care about gravity. I designed my electromagnet to use various spacers and pole pieces to be able to magnetize every automotive magneto whose dimensions I could find. As a result some magnetos have to be vertical (e.g. Lucas K2F and Magdyno), while others are horizontal (Bosch ZEV and Lucas KNC1).

After magnetizing the magneto, but before attaching the dynamo, I wanted to make sure the magneto was working well so I clamped it to my long-term tester and installed a pulley that spins it at 2000 rpm (4000 rpm engine). Assuming that corresponds to about 60 mph my 6-hour test was equivalent to ~350 miles.
[Linked Image]
The reason for this extended test is that if there were any loose parts or other issues there's a good chance they would have revealed themselves in this 6-hour, 2000-rpm test. Also, since all the electrons and magnetic monopoles were now comfortably in their final state another test would reveal how hard my friend was going to have to jump on the kick starter in order for the magneto to start the engine.

After running the magneto on the long-term tester I put it on my modified distributor tester to make sure the spark occurred at the same point each revolution (i.e. didn't wander over a range of firing angles). Unfortunately, I was rushing because I still had to get ready to go out for dinner so I didn't take the time to set up to take photos and when I came back to it the next day already had removed it from the tester before I remembered this. Anyway, the firing wandered by less than a degree.

After the distributor tester I put it on the lathe to check the lowest speed at which it would provide a reliable spark. I should have been able to make this measurement in the distributor tester but I'm in the process of installing a different tachometer on it and don't have it wired in place yet. Lucas gives 500 rpm (engine) as the normal kick starting speed and 300 rpm as the lower limit. This magneto reliably sparked down to 276 rpm (engine; 138 rpm magneto). I didn't photograph this since the setup is identical to the one I used earlier in this thread for the low speed test of the Bosch ZEV.

I already had refurbished the dynamo so it was time to install it on the magneto. As the next diagram shows attaching the coupling gears is straightforward.
[Linked Image]

First the fiber gear and clutch are bolted to the armature. To tighten the nut requires a special tool, which is simply a 1/4"-dia. rod of the right length bent into a 'U' shape.
[Linked Image]

After the nut is fully tightened the lock washer holds it in place. To make sure the clutch slips within the right torque range Lucas, having not yet discovered the existence of torque wrenches, suggests the following setup.
[Linked Image]

However, rather than raid a fishmonger's stall to get the necessary scale, I used an actual torque wrench. This test still requires a way to lock the magneto armature in place, for which Lucas suggests another jig shown in the above photograph that places all the force on a single tooth of the fabric gear.

In another document Lucas suggests a diamond-shape tool for this task, as shown at the left of the next composite photograph jammed between the fiber gear and a dynamo gear placed in position for the photograph. Clearly, this also puts a lot of force on a small area of the fiber gear. Because of this, also shown next to the magneto is the jig I made for this which engages 10 teeth of the fiber gear, reducing the force on any one of them by a factor of 10. This jig is shown in place at the right of the composite photograph.
[Linked Image]

With the fiber gear locked in place and a deep drive socket on the torque wrench to clear the end of the armature I found the clutch slipped at 7 ft-lb. Lucas calls for it to be anywhere in the range 4-10 ft-lb. so all is well with the clutch and the magneto is now ready for the dynamo.
[Linked Image]

The dynamo is pulled into position by a nut at the front but the actual holding force is provided by a strap. I first pulled it into position with the nut and then, as can be seen from the next composite photograph, tightened the strap bolts on both sides in a way that left approximately equal gaps. This allows the greatest flexibility if the strap needs to be further tightened in the future.
[img]http://i1151.photobucket.com/a...ectrics/Magdyno140_zpsplozw6lw.jpg[/img]

After the dynamo was firmly in place I removed the top nut and replaced it after installing the cover. At this point the Magdyno was now finished and awaiting installation on the bike.

p.s. I don't know why the last image won't appear, and shows up as "does not exist" in Photobucket if the code is clicked on. I've tried uploading it again to receive a new URL, and slightly changing the image in Photoshop and then uploading that one. Nothing I've tried has worked. Anyway, the image you're not seeing is a composite that shows the Magdyno without the cover beside it with the cover.

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #669039 09/26/16 4:39 pm
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As I wrote in the previous post, earlier this year I stress-tested coils for a Dixie magneto and a spare as a favor for Kevin Naser who was rebuilding a 1916 Indian to ride in the next Cannonball cross-country rally. As well as testing his coils I also gave him two pairs of "my" condensers to use in these magnetos.

The 2016 Cannonball is now finished and Kevin was one of only 16 riders out of a starting field of 92 who achieved a perfect score in the 3306-mile, 16-day rally. He covered every mile, and did so within the allotted time every day. As this shows, a magneto -- even one 100 years old -- that is rebuilt using the proper components will take a licking and keep on ticking.

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #700522 07/03/17 12:08 am
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magnetoman, photobucket has screwed your thread.

good as it is was, it's now text-only . . .


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #700568 07/03/17 11:26 am
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Shame that this valuable and instructive thread has gone down the drain indeed.


Peter.
1974 Commando 850
1972 Trident T150T
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1969 Benelli 250 sport special
Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #700599 07/03/17 3:53 pm
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Guys, thanks for the condolences. Also trashed were my other 'projects' threads, and seven of the top ten 'projects' threads in terms of views are history. However, perhaps they're not gone forever.

Three possibilities come to mind: In the weeks to come Photobucket could cave to the bad PR, alter their policy, and grandfather in old links. A different Hosting service along with an automatic search/replace as outlined by Shane could get things running again just like they were. Or, at least for my material, the people behind the software that runs BritBike (not Morgan, but the people who maintain and upgrade the code) could finally bring its image-handling capability into the 21st Century and I could upload all of my trashed threads from my computer that have the images directly embedded in them.

In any case, there are potential solutions so there's good reason not to panic (well, except for Morgan, who probably should be panicked...).

I'm reminded that sometime a year or so ago someone dismissively commented on a concern I expressed about the reliance on Photobucket that he could "personally guarantee" the service was large enough that it never would go away. I replied that he couldn't guarantee that because he had no control over it. Technically, it hasn't "gone away," it's just locked all of us out, but the effect is the same.

There's no guarantee Britbike won't go away sometime in the future, either, which is another reason to keep your own backups of any material you care about. By the way, there's no difference between relying on "the Cloud" to do this for you and relying on Photobucket itself, since "The Cloud" is just a variety of services like Photobucket.

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #700703 07/04/17 7:59 am
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Indeed very disappointing. This thread was used by several of my friends. I hope it can be restored somehow and then I shall ensure I print it out - or make a PDF for my files.

Regards

John

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #704576 08/11/17 12:58 am
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Hi Magnetoman. It is some years since I dropped back on this thread and I see you've had problems with photos being lost.
I am surprised you would not have a backup.... fortunately years ago I saved it all for my own reference and have put it up on Dropbox if you wish to make use of it.
Cheers,
Greg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j4wl8wa38kfga63/Restoring%20a%20Rotating%20Armature%20Magneto.docx?dl=0

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
johnm #704577 08/11/17 12:59 am
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John,
Here is a Dropbox link to the doco
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j4wl8wa38kfga63/Restoring%20a%20Rotating%20Armature%20Magneto.docx?dl=0
Cheers mate, see you in NZ!!!!
Greg

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
GROG #704588 08/11/17 3:13 am
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Originally Posted by GROG
I am surprised you would not have a backup....
I would be even more surprised than you...

However, I wrote it in an "active" format for this forum rather than as a "static" document, which I would have edited differently. That's why I want to bring it back to life by re-linking to photos when I have the time to do it.

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
GROG #704597 08/11/17 5:25 am
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Hi Greg

Good to see you back here. Yup back home to NZ for good come Christmas although there is a move here to get me to stay even longer. But 7 years in Central Asia and Eastern Europe is enough and I need to work a period in NZ before turning 65 for super and tax reasons anyway. I have been assigned Eldee 2 to investigate while Nick works on the new 350. Bill Swallow is still keen to ride it in the 2018 Manx. Perhaps you should make the trip? And by the way you are likely to get the job of assessing the Eldee head and porting when you visit next year. They have at least one more blank which could be machined up. (Get the management style - too many years of having a team working for me - I'm supposed to do the work but just assign it out to everyone else :-) )

I cant access the Dropbox here but I'm sure I will manage it somehow.

I printed out a PDF which I have stored in NZ. My young staff laugh at me but as I point out I have never had a piece of paper vanish overnight. But more than one or two computer drives have blown themselves out of existence over the years !!! It's good to be a luddite !!

Last edited by johnm; 08/11/17 5:26 am.
Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #716565 11/25/17 2:34 pm
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if you're using vivaldi, you can restore the images to your screen using an extension from the chrome web store. go to this link and click ADD EXTENSION, then clear your cache and reload.

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/...x/naolkcpnnlofnnghnmfegnfnflicjjgj?hl=en

Last edited by kevin roberts; 11/25/17 2:40 pm.

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Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
kevin #758659 12/09/18 7:18 am
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Magnetoman,
Best ever article, thank you. I have several BTH magnetos from Velocette MSS engines and am in the process of replacing the capacitors.
I have also removed the pin/screw in the end cap to have the end cap chromed.
I have turned new pins/screws for the cam ring adjustment. What is the process of realigning these pins ie. position of adjustment of the cam ring.
Regards Peter.

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Ponce #758675 12/09/18 3:37 pm
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Thanks for your nice comment. I need to look at a housing to remind myself of the construction, but my box of BTH magnetos and parts is on a shelf behind a mass of Ariel-related items that are "temporarily" there. Unfortunately, it won't be anytime soon before that situation changes.

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #758886 12/11/18 7:12 am
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Thanks for the response. I will try to get a picture up which may refresh you. I know when one packs parts away on shelves it is often difficult to move them and sometimes very heavy as well!!
Regards Peter.

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Ponce #759684 12/18/18 7:34 am
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I have found out it is the screw to adjust the position of the cam ring in relation to internal timing of the magneto, called the flip point I believe.
Would you know how to determine this point electrically, please?
Regards Peter

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Ponce #759707 12/18/18 3:14 pm
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Originally Posted by Ponce
Would you know how to determine this point electrically, please?
The inductance of the primary and secondary abruptly change at the point where the magnetic flux reverses in the armature. As you approach that point the flux lines get forced closer together so to torque required to turn the armature increases. At the point where it reverses the torque also abruptly decreases, making it difficult to stop turning the armature when that point is reached. It's like pushing on something that is stuck and trying to stop pushing at the moment it becomes unstuck so that the object remains in the same position without having moved.

Anyway, a protractor attached to the armature and an inductance meter attached to the coil lets you plot L vs. angle. Although you have the same problem of torque abruptly decreasing at the flux reversal point, fitting the curves before and after and extrapolating to where they cross lets you determine the point to better than 1-deg. without too much effort.

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #760178 12/23/18 7:41 am
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Magneto Man,
Thanks once again for your help. It is such a busy time of the year so I will wait till it quietens a little before I attempt to find the correct point.
Thanks once again I do appreciate your knowledge and am learning very slowly.
Regards Peter.

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Ponce #777055 06/22/19 8:22 pm
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I saw a recent thread on the VMCC forum and I know MM isn't on there any more so thought I would report some details on here as it is a good example of lots of things on this thread about poor mag rebuilds.

A guy was having trouble with his magneto so sent it to a re-builder to fix. The re-builder reported back that:

"There were 2 wires, seemingly from a wire brush, inside the armature, the wire from the winding was not in good shape, the screws which hold the armature together were the wrong thread and although they seemed tight, they would very quickly become loose.The condenser was wrong and did not fit into the space available, so it had been shoved in at an angle and the wires coming from it were bare. All of these thing would cause a problem so to have them all.... no wonder the bike would not start."

I know there are reports of poor mag re-builders but whoever did this must have had zero sense of shame.

John

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
George Kaplan #777068 06/22/19 11:53 pm
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Originally Posted by George Kaplan
I saw a recent thread on the VMCC forum and I know MM isn't on there any more....
I let my VMCC membership lapse earlier this year but someone doesn't have to be a member to take part in the Forum. However, I only check it from time to time and coincidentally had done so about ten hours ago. The 12 new posts in 4 threads since then illustrate why I don't bother checking very often.

Originally Posted by George Kaplan
I know there are reports of poor mag re-builders but whoever did this must have had zero sense of shame.
But, I'll bet the cosmetics of the outside of that magneto were excellent since it seems that's where all the restoration effort is spent by many rebuilders. After all, the customer pays for what they see, not what they can't see...

Attached Files VMCC.jpg
Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #777085 06/23/19 7:55 am
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My VMCC membership gets me put into the official Insurers demographic of "Old Fart" which co-incidentally gives me an insurance discount of a similar amount to the subscription. If I didn't get the discount I am not certain if I would be still a member too.

I agree about the lack of traffic on the forum. I have been a bit under the weather for the last few days so probably have been on there more than usual.

Unfortunately, lots of so called Specialists who fix all sorts of stuff turn out to be Charlatans who only make stuff shiny rather than actually work properly. Electrical and electronic items are also probably worse for this as so many punters see it as a Black Art.

John

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #777098 06/23/19 1:04 pm
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I love the word Charlatan. The lady who delivered our vegetables from her Commer van in Dublin when I was a boy was a great malapropist. She described a neighbor of ours as 'a right bloody Charlamagne'.

Lots of Charlamagnes rebuild mags, too.

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
NYBSAGUY #777105 06/23/19 3:53 pm
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I love Charlamagnes too. Mrs Malaprop regularly gives me great amusement.

John

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #777106 06/23/19 4:03 pm
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A word I don't think I've ever heard used in American English, only in old British movies, is 'mountebank'. It's close, but not quite identical in meaning, to 'charlatan'.

Charlatan. A person who pretends to special knowledge or skill that he or she does not posses.

Mountebank. A person who deceives others, especially in order to trick them out of their money

'Mountebank' would be better for describing those who possibly possess the knowledge to repair a magneto but who don't waste the time to do so because they know their customers won't look any further than the polished outside surface. However, it wouldn't convey the same feeling of outrage toward a rebuilder as 'charlatan', at least in American English ("Gadzooks, the mountebank miswired my condenser!")

Re: Restoring a Rotating Armature Magneto
Magnetoman #777146 06/24/19 1:25 am
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Mountebank was originally a word used to describe an actor.. Hmm.. beware those lowlife cads.

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