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Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
DMadigan #758082 12/04/18 8:48 am
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Ok it must be the earlier 911/916 I was thinking about then.

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1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
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Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
DMadigan #758116 12/04/18 4:16 pm
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
To help prevent running cavitation you could do what H*rley did and pressurize the oil tank by rerouting the breather back into the tank then adding a residual pressure valve (as sometimes used on brake systems) to the vent line. But, yes, the filter would have to be primed. Just put a syringe on the feed line and suck the oil through.



But does harley have they filter in the oil tank or further down the system? I can’t remember how much the oil tank holds but say it’s 3 litres then your looking at around 2kg weight of oil head pressure pushing its way through the filter, as air has a lower density than oil this should be displaced by the oil itself. If that filter is down the pipe by any length then you will need pressure above it to force it down and through the filter (I believe SRM’s refrence to a filter is the canister type)

You could pressurise the tank though, blanking off the cam breather and using a rocker breather linked into the frames top tube. However you will need to know the max pressure you could get away with and have a bleed off valve, as well as a one way valve between the engine and the frame.

If you have a filter of the triumph internal the, you could do a flow rate test by fitting it without the filter, and seeing how much oil flows into a beaker over a set time. Then drain off and refit with the filter and run the test again. You could just use the drain bolt which some have fitted to save messing up any pipe work. Course if there is a difference you need to know what the flow rate is required by the pump. But further restriction by the smaller oil holes through the engine will probably still be the biggest restriction.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #758119 12/04/18 4:37 pm
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The amount of oil in the tank does not create the pressure but its the height above the oil pump, the tank could be a 55 gal drum but if its at the back wheel then there will be no pressure, an egg cup full of oil with a pipe to the pump held at head height will create a lot more pressure. That is how I worked out the minimum strength of the spring needed in a non return valve to stop wet sumping, it was 18" column of oil, volume did not come into it.

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #758125 12/04/18 5:47 pm
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I was referring to it quenching the filter

Once the filter is quenched your at the same point as if you were running through a strainer. However most of the oil in the rear tunnel is above the height of the pump.

Last edited by Allan Gill; 12/04/18 6:32 pm. Reason: Second paragraph added

Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #758131 12/04/18 6:34 pm
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How did the filter get on fire?
Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick, and apologies for swerving off topic, but why does the Charlies type filter need to be primed ?, its sitting at the bottom of a pipe full of oil, its an open cartridge , oil will flow through it as soon as its submerged, there might be some air trapped in the feed pipe between the frame and the pump, that will bleed out through an old pump, a new pump might need the frame pressurised to push through but that would happen whether a filter was fitted or not.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
gavin eisler #758136 12/04/18 7:03 pm
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
How did the filter get on fire?
Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick, and apologies for swerving off topic, but why does the Charlies type filter need to be primed ?, its sitting at the bottom of a pipe full of oil, its an open cartridge , oil will flow through it as soon as its submerged, there might be some air trapped in the feed pipe between the frame and the pump, that will bleed out through an old pump, a new pump might need the frame pressurised to push through but that would happen whether a filter was fitted or not.


Fire? Lol I’m assuming your referring to my saying quenched?

Regarding the Charlie filter, my point exactly. I’ve primed an engine in seconds by starting the bike up
(The journals being coving in assembly line designed for no oil at first start up) it primes a sh*t load faster then 100 kicks on the kicker with the plugs out.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #758175 12/04/18 11:43 pm
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Why that level of hostility NickL?

If the subject is irrelevant to you, why involve yourself in it?

If you are so experienced and beyond these matters, why waste your time junking other folks thoughts?

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #758203 12/05/18 7:01 am
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Hi

Well said Nick. Based on realism and common sense as every. I totally agree with you, in that if you can't make an improvement why waste your time.

Look forward to your next posts as always.

John

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
NickL #758357 12/06/18 3:05 pm
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Originally Posted by NickL
Sorry, i take it all back, no offence intended. I wasn't trashing anyone intentionally.
Not being hostile just asking what benefits they are trying to achieve, messing about with stuff that already works.
Any mods to these old crates should be done to improve them in one way or another, for instance Dave came up
with a brilliant design for a good oil pump, yet no-one took that up, a real positive improvement. Modification to the
cylinder head oil feed has been done and proved but no-one took that up either.
If you are racing these things then uprating stuff progressively is sensible as stresses increase, but most blokes
are plodding these around the houses for maybe 1-2000 miles per year. What possible benefit can a dual oil filter
setup be? Many owners are changing the oil before it's done anything anyway. The bottom ends of these bikes
are far more than adequate for general use why piss about modifying and complicating them unless forced into it
due to failures or excessive wear. Build them properly as standard and they last. I sited my own bike as an instance, that's all.
The engineer in me always ask's 'why change this?' what is the benefit? Any development must be an improvement
or it's not worth doing. I could have spent half my working life changing components on working systems to use
more modern technology with absolutely no benefit at all, i f i chose to. I see these in the same way, i cannot help it.



I didn't intend on fitting a filter in the return line, I can't see the point. However a filter in the frame is a much neater solution than having one clamped to the frame, my pre OIF uses the 2CV filter, it generally works fine and there is nothing restricting its removal, also if it does drop oil im not cleaning up crank cases/ frame etc. The pre filter in the OIF does the same job, its clean! I'd also filter my oil before it goes around the engine than aftrwards.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #758363 12/06/18 3:47 pm
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Putting a filter inside the OI frame is cleaner than a Norton style filter sitting horizontal above the swingarm pivot bolt but the oil picks up dirt from the engine so putting the filter in the feed dumps the dirt in the frame. There are alternatives to the horizontal Norton filter that do not dump oil on the frame. A spin-on filter can be fit behind the frame base plate or even centered on the plate with a little extra work.
I can see your desire to keep it looking stock. I would like to know what you meant by "it generally works fine"?

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
DMadigan #758426 12/07/18 12:51 pm
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
I would like to know what you meant by "it generally works fine"?



The filter in the return line does its job as it should, however I feel it puts more back pressure on the system which dumps more oil to the rockers. Then there is more oil in the crank cases. I know you can T off after the filter in the return line to feed the rockers and whilst I don't doubt that it does work, its more pipe work that I'm trying to keep down. My 68' already has a cooler and a thermostat (however with the thermostat fitted it isn't making the situation any worse than before they were fitted)

If riding the bike at normal casual riding then it doesn't use a drop of oil, If im pushing the bike then it will use oil. It doesn't burn any and has total seal rings, none coming down the guides and it doesn't leak either! however if the bike has been pushed some then you will find that when its cooled down in the garage there will be a small puddle from the timed breather, if I have not been accelerating hard etc etc then there won't be any oil beneath it, but it won't have dropped lower in the tank either. (As i say it was the same before I used the oil cooler).


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #758498 12/07/18 7:57 pm
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I have an " Anglo bike " IIRC spin on filter mount , cast with an off set so the canister hangs down approx 3" to the TS fro rear wheel centre line to allow rear wheel clearance,these were made specifically for OIF early models and the oil lines marry up very well, it mounts with a typical U clamp and brace, its easy to change 5 minutes tops.. Just googled it , seems they are no longer available or quite probably I have miss remembered the name , I purchased it around 1990 ish. Once my frame sump is boxed up it stays that way till the next major teardown, maybe 10- 15 years, I hate messing with that stuff, changing that internal thing looks like a real chore, personally , i am way too lazy for that.

The required T off for the rocker line after the filter is easily hidden between the carbs, I trimmed the hard tail on the rocker cover union a little to get a neater fit.. With the stock routing you have more pipe on display with the long rocker feed from the manifold.

any additional filter is probably a "good thing" so it boils down to laziness versus aesthetics I suppose.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 12/07/18 8:07 pm.

71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #758553 12/08/18 12:36 am
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... and now for something completely different.

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #758624 12/08/18 8:06 pm
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As my closing comment on the subject of OIF oil filters. Due to the woefully marginal capacity of the OIF oil tank, the only thing I would put into the oil tank is oil. An external oil filter on the return obviously helps, not only with capacity but also vital cooling. The feed to the rockers is taken off the return feed banjo so doesn't effect oiling of the rockers. This is my firebird filter which I've adopted onto the A70.

[Linked Image]


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #805577 04/16/20 4:42 pm
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Servodyne: Your A10/A70 crank conversion: Whilst I realise this is an old conversation - (of 2 years ago) and the dicussion finished on the subject of filters - Can I bring it back on track and ask how did the A10/A70 crank conversion lasted in service? - Any updates? How long does the outer thrust washer / end float adjustment last?

There is a good reason to my asking:
When I get over my current A70 Flywheel Bolts issue (- another thread on here), I feel that my A70 crank main bush arrangement will have to be re-modified in a similar way to your A10 one - The crank has had a hard life - racing or butchery (or both) I think. A previous owner of it has ground down the main journal, used a combination needle bearing and end-fed it - but all this is now a bit of a mess. The tiny end-thrust ball race element of the combination needle roller has worn through into the bearing surface edge of the inner race ( the bearing inner sleeve). The pinion gear also looks like it has been removed using a cold chisel! - with consequent damage to the main journal end face ( yet to be cleaned up/ face restored). The damaged inner sleeve has now been extracted from the much ground down main journal ( i.r.o 35mm dia/ 1.3/8"). I do not have the associated modified A70 cases or inner cover to go with the roller/end fed crank... so my most economic option seems to be the use of a standard (spare in hand) set of late OIF A65 cases, suitably machined for the 'outer thrust washer' and the A70 crank de/re-modified with a thick bearing sleeve to bring the journal back up to 1.5" od (as you have done to your A10 crank). Did you have any problems drilling holes the bearing sleeve for the oil feed?

So - before I launch into this repair any updates on the original conversion discussion would be appreciated (with 100% hindsight). How reliable is this set-up? Any more thoughts on the two flange bush arrangement?

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #805588 04/16/20 6:33 pm
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Originally Posted by Sticky999
Servodyne: Your A10/A70 crank conversion: Whilst I realise this is an old conversation - (of 2 years ago) and the dicussion finished on the subject of filters - Can I bring it back on track and ask how did the A10/A70 crank conversion lasted in service? - Any updates? How long does the outer thrust washer / end float adjustment last?
Well, I've only done 1200 miles since the rebuild but everything seems to be working as planned. A bit more grunt than my A65 but a bit more vibes as expected. Both cranks were dynamically balanced by SRM. Coincidentally, I had the primary case off today to nip up the clutch springs to stop a bit of slip and one of the things I checked was the crank end float. Thankfully, there wasn't any perceivable float despite a good pull and push on the crank. I don't really envisage any significant wear issues with the trust washers as the only end loading comes from the oil pump drive.

It sounds like you have your work cut out with the crank that you've got, but the inner bearing sleeve conversion does work well as long as it's a shrink fit on the crank and is effectively clamped by the outboard thrust washer. I believe there have been problems with the sleeve turning on earlier conversions and cutting off oil feed, but these probably didn't have the outboard thrust washer like on the A70.

The only way I had to rework the hardened sleeve was with carbide burrs for the holes and disc cutters for the oil groove. I attached two jubilee clips where I wanted the groove and carefully ground it with a doubled up disc cutter. The oil hole was then ground through with a carbide burr. One thing you'll have to do of coarse is block of the end feed on the crank.

I just need this lock down to be lifted some I can do some decent runs on it.


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #805598 04/16/20 8:49 pm
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Not to steal anything away from Servodyne, if it wasn’t for his project I probably wouldn’t have started mine in the way I did.

I have just had back my A10 crank A65 motor, it’ll be a little while before I get it running as SWMBO has informed me that I need to save a little before I start spending again, also the bike will need registering etc (unless I chuck the motor into my lightning frame....

Because the A10 has a smaller main journal than the A65, they sweated on a top hat sleeve. It has a good interference fit so it won’t shift for anything. But they prefer to use the A65 style end float setting. It can also be reverted to a stock A65 if ever needed to be.

The drive end will need altering regardless of what A10 crank you have (I believe the DS stubs on A10 alternator cranks are not long enough) Mine is setup to take the bob Newby belt drive front Pulley (which sticks out more than the triplex sprocket)

Then it was Dynamically balanced by Basset Down balancing, They did my A65 and did an excellent job. Despite being setup to hold B44 pistons it didn’t have as much taken off as I thought it might, but it does explain why BSA T shaped the flywheel.

The did also machine 5mm off the diameter of the A10 flywheel so that it matched the OD of the A65 flywheel. Also reduce the head height of the bolts too so that they didn’t protrude past the flywheel.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #805611 04/16/20 11:00 pm
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Many thanks for that most positive reply Servodyne - I was really hoping things had shaped up well with your repair + conversion.

The set-up appears to be a whole lot more robust than the combined needle roller route ( as evidenced by the mess I have inherited here). It also seems to be a comparitively inexpensive simple repair for all those other A65/A70 cranks out there with a worn/damaged undersize main journal (when compared with the expensive needle roller/end feed complex oil supply set up). Keeping it simple/uncomplex (as your repair solution does) should ensure a reliable system.

- Now, over the past years have you ( or others) had any more thoughts on the feasability of a twin/split bush configuration (specifically - rather than grinding the circumferential groove in the hardened sleeve and drilling the radial oil hole paths (as discussed and imaged above )...obtain/create two independent rings of the hardened repair sleeve with the gap between them serving as both oil hole and groove? IFF they were shrunk on and remained 'stable' the crank should still dynamically float as they are effectively the same as a gooved & drilled sleeve of the same area.

With the slight reduction of journal length to accomodate the outer thrust washer I see that what remains of the remaining original journal oil slot is becoming slightly off-centred along the journal (- this then being mirrored in the surface of the hardened repair sleeve) - a similarly slightly shorter 'preference' oil path has now been created via the outer thrust washer (albeit minimal clearance there). As the stated major thrust face is the internal washer (= zero running clearance) this outward preference oil path is probably not ideal. Better if the situation was reversed so the oil would 'prefer' to leak away via the loaded inner thrust face = oil cushion. Could equal length journal repair 'rings' be configured so as to re-equalise or even bias the oil leakage paths in the preferred inboard direction (as long as an unobstructed oil path was maintained from the stated now slightly off-centre original journal groove below).

Has anyone else been 'here' already before settling on the Servodyne established repair solution? Am I trying to 'fix something (in this discussion) that is not broken ' ? I hear a voice suggesting "go away and try it ...".

All considered thoughts appreciated.

- So lets see how far I can get with this during lock-down without a machine shop down the garden - What an absolute bitch this is - all this time locked in here and no basic facilities! Could such work be considered 'Essential' under HMGs current Instruments - probably not...

PS. Servodyne: Fear not , I will not be able to forget the redundant end-feed quill - as (at the moment) it would inhibit fitting the std inner timing cover!

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #805616 04/17/20 12:06 am
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As a long term user of the combi needle ball thrust set up, I can see no merit in going for the A70 bush set up. The end feed is a superior big end supply and i have had no problems with the ball thrust arrangement , providing this is set up correctly the balls are very lightly loaded. My tuppence worth.
Having recently replaced my timing side mains , not through wear, there was a spot of corrosion on the race, I will say its not plug and play, the combi bearing replacement needs subtle adjusting, the bearing outer on the crank side needed a few thou lapped off the end to give clearance and the inner sleeve needed a shim between the crank face and the inner to set the crank distance correctly so that nothing binds when the crank pinion nut is torqued up. Fitting skills are needed.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Sticky999 #805651 04/17/20 7:44 am
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
As a long term user of the combi needle ball thrust set up, I can see no merit in going for the A70 bush set up.
One of the main reasons I went for the A70 bush set up was to retain the originality of the A70 crankcase as it's the only real thing that sets it apart from a standard A65. My A65 Firebird has had the SRM conversion and is working very well after 25K miles, although a friend of mine had it done many years ago at eye watering expense and suffered a catastrophic failure last year of the ball race inner ring, and that was after only something like 4k miles. Funny you should also mention the shim between the crank face and the inner race. I only gave SRM the necessary bottom end parts to convert and when it came back I was surprised to find that the inner race had been fitted with a gap to the crank face. When I enquired with SRM they said it was fitted against a shoulder ground on the crank but I should give it a tap just to make sure it was fully home, which I did and it was.

Originally Posted by Sticky999
- Now, over the past years have you ( or others) had any more thoughts on the feasability of a twin/split bush configuration
The only problem I can see with the twin sleeve is you wouldn't be able to use the outboard thrust washer to clamp the assembly when you tighten up the oil pump drive nut as you would have a gap between the two sleeves. I think the added securing of having the trust washer clamp the inner sleeve was key in preventing the inner sleeve creeping round and blocking the oil feed hole to the crank.


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion
Servodyne #805652 04/17/20 8:16 am
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If you have lost confidence in the needle/combination bearing, swap it out for a needle only and fit an outrigger bearing outboard the alternator. I have done this to my A65, but the factory and Mark Parker have done this to theirs also.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

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