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can anyone id this sidecar? #756861
11/22/18 7:04 pm
11/22/18 7:04 pm
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 168
Hawaii USA
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cas.vanderwoude Offline OP
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Hawaii USA
I recently bought a 1949 BSA M21 with a sidecar. Originally, the motorcycle was sold through a dealer in South Australia but currently it's in Hawaii which is a bit odd.
I can not identify the sidecar and I was hoping someone might be able to tell me something about it.


[img][img]https://image.ibb.co/k4c0VL/20181114-121916-resize.jpg[/img]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image][/img]


Last edited by cas.vanderwoude; 11/22/18 7:07 pm.
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Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #756873
11/22/18 10:07 pm
11/22/18 10:07 pm
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Oztralia
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Rohan Offline
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My initial thoughts was that maybe it was a Goulding, which were made in Oz before they moved production to the USA.
e.g.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4d/f3/37/4df337eee46502aa3e5bb2ee4c228917.jpg

However, it is pointy at both ends, which is not yer usual Goulding.
But could still be....

Boat style sidecars were popular over a long period of time, as you probably know.
in the 1920s they even came with various features like wooden planking and nautical fittings and anchors etc,
and one pic I saw while googling this just now had an outboard engine attached to the back !!
Have fun...

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #756966
11/24/18 12:48 am
11/24/18 12:48 am
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Posts: 822
Overland Missouri
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old mule Offline
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Very nice home-built body on a BSA chassis. Two small coils springs at front of chassis would identify it as BSA- postwar BSA chassis used flat leaf sprigs, the ones you have are pre-war. Put these photos up on the Fed facebk group's site- They will know.

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: old mule] #757008
11/24/18 5:27 pm
11/24/18 5:27 pm
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Posts: 168
Hawaii USA
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cas.vanderwoude Offline OP
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thanks guys. This has been real helpful. I had not thought about a home made body. If it is, someone did a good job. it has wooden floorboards and steel sides and top. It is a bit of a tight fit for me but I'm 6ft 5. Incredibly light to boot. I've seen similar suspension arrangement on other sidecars from the 1920s and 30s...

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #757034
11/24/18 10:23 pm
11/24/18 10:23 pm
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Rohan Offline
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If this bike came out of Australia like that, then it almost certainly would have been one of the aussie made sidecars -
there were dozens of makers, imported sidecars cost an arm and leg, because of the import duty.
So its very unlikely to be 'home made'.

Dusting and Goulding come to mind because of the shape, and boat shaped sidecars were popular at one time.
I've seen something like that before, let me ponder on it.
Goulding sold so many sidecars into the USA that they up and moved production there at some point.



Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: Rohan] #757119
11/25/18 10:25 pm
11/25/18 10:25 pm
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Posts: 822
Overland Missouri
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old mule Offline
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Didn't notice it was from OZ. One evening on the net I counted 23 Australian sidecar makers, from factories like Tilbrook to tin sheds in the middle of nowhere. A book about them needs to be written.

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #757272
11/27/18 8:01 am
11/27/18 8:01 am
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Melbourne, Australia
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Villiers Offline
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Two things
Firstly, back in the 70's the late Wal Maynard of the Victorian VMCC wrote a surprisingly lengthy series on Australian made outfits for the monthly Club magazine, one make at a time. As we were required to provide copies of each magazine to both State and Federal bodies it is theoretically possible to track these articles down and study them but as the paper we published the Club mag on wasn't chosen for it's archival qualities I wouldn't be too confident on it's current condition. But you never know.

Secondly, it was the sidecar BODIES that attracted hefty import duties, not the chassis. In horse drawn days the building of all the various horse and bullock drawn vehicles was a big industry here that rapidly went down the gurgler as the motor vehicle took over. They fought back hard and by the early 1920's had the Federal Government slap heavy import duties on all vehicle body work that could be done by local labour. Hence the great majority of all Australian motor vehicles across the board had Australian made bodies. Sidecar chassis were a different story. Few were imported as they failed in Australian conditions. They were invariably too stiff and inflexible and couldn't stand the battering given them by local roads. The whole point of early Australian made sidecar chassis was that they had a certain degree of flex built in. What they nowadays call 'compliance'. It's worthwhile having a good look at the common Oz Dusting chassis and comparing it with the English BSA one in the photo. You'll note the big Silentbloc bushes on the Dusting. Australian chassis didn't break.

It's not a big problem nowadays as the roads are so much better but it was when the sidecar was king. The BSA chassis won't be problem in Hawaii. You have good roads and short distances. It's be a lot of fun.
Cheers,

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: Villiers] #757307
11/27/18 4:13 pm
11/27/18 4:13 pm
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Overland Missouri
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old mule Offline
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Thanks for that information. I may try to contact the Vic VMCC.

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #757365
11/28/18 3:27 am
11/28/18 3:27 am
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Melbourne, Australia
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Villiers Offline
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Hi Old Mule,
I've done a little digging and have a little more info for you on the Wal Maynard articles. The club magazine is called 'Exhaust Notes" and a full set of copies is held by the State Library of Victoria. The Club started as the Motorcycle Collectors Club of Victoria but fairly soon renamed itself the Vintage Motor Cycle Club of Victoria. The Club magazines are held in the State Library under the original name. The State Library of Victoria has its own website with a good search engine of course and all you have to do is bring up the site, search 'Exhaust Notes" and up it comes. They then fetch them out of the archives for you. This is fine if you are a local but a bit tricky in your position. I would doubt very much the VMCCV itself would be of much help. All the old boys from that era are long gone with the young buck remnants like me now very much in old boy mode. I doubt they themselves hold a full set of Exhaust Notes. They didn't in my time. Nevertheless it may be worthwhile contacting them. There might be someone as curious as you who can spend the time looking in the library. I find the State Library dangerous. It's just got too much info. The more you look the more there is to see.

Our State Library occupies a unique niche. After Federation in 1900 the early Federal Parliament sat in Melbourne until 1927 when it moved to its present home in Canberra. In those days libraries performed the same research function as does the web today so having both State and Federal politicians using it meant it acquired a massive collection of Godwot. For early days motoring/motorcycling it takes a lot of beating. Unfortunately finding stuff requires physical searching page by page so it's slow and you keep finding other fascinating stuff.

Anyway, the information is there. It's just a matter of somehow digging it out.

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: Villiers] #757510
11/29/18 1:55 pm
11/29/18 1:55 pm
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Overland Missouri
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old mule Offline
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Well! I'm a retired librarian, so this is like putting the hare in front of the hound! Thank you very much!

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: Villiers] #757571
11/30/18 12:53 am
11/30/18 12:53 am
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Overland Missouri
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old mule Offline
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Asked at that great library via e mail about old periodicals, unfortunately one must have an Aus. telephone number to communicate with them. Curses!

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #757882
12/02/18 8:29 pm
12/02/18 8:29 pm
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Posts: 497
Cork Ireland
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Hi All,
I don't think the chassis is BSA, !
BSA chassis are 4 point mounting
The rear mounting of BSA chassis fit directly onto the mounting near the rear wheel axle, this mount is an integral part of the
frame lug, (there's a steel adaptor plate fitted from the frame mount to the rear sidecar mount visible in the photos)
The top front BSA mounting fits into the tapered hole in the head stock forging

Picture of BSA M series frame here

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbsa-a10.hailwood.com%2Fimages%2Fm20-21-33-ridged-frame1945-.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fbsa-a10.hailwood.com%2Fm20-21-33-ridged-frame1945.html&docid=csDJouWqYwg8wM&tbnid=q6OwysEEByjcRM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwiT7f7v-oHfAhUWUxUIHe7qAxYQMwhMKBEwEQ..i&w=700&h=708&client=firefox-b&bih=654&biw=1198&q=bsa%20M21%20rigid%20frame&ved=0ahUKEwiT7f7v-oHfAhUWUxUIHe7qAxYQMwhMKBEwEQ&iact=mrc&uact=8

BSA sidecar chassis pics
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fbsa2247sidecar%2F_%2Frsrc%2F1467890454929%2Fhome%2Fchassis-plan%2Fbsa-22-47_connections.jpg%3Fheight%3D293%26width%3D400&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fbsa2247sidecar%2Fhome%2Fchassis-plan&docid=DxLlmUAZ-i1RvM&tbnid=BVlWQWfqY3JWgM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwie1YWi_YHfAhX4ShUIHWDvCpUQMwg-KAAwAA..i&w=398&h=293&client=firefox-b&bih=654&biw=1198&q=BSA%20sidecar%20chassis%20drawing&ved=0ahUKEwie1YWi_YHfAhX4ShUIHWDvCpUQMwg-KAAwAA&iact=mrc&uact=8

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fbsa2247sidecar%2F_%2Frsrc%2F1467890454929%2Fhome%2Fchassis-plan%2Fbsa-22-47_connections.jpg%3Fheight%3D293%26width%3D400&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fbsa2247sidecar%2Fhome%2Fchassis-plan&docid=DxLlmUAZ-i1RvM&tbnid=BVlWQWfqY3JWgM%3A&vet=10ahUKEwie1YWi_YHfAhX4ShUIHWDvCpUQMwg-KAAwAA..i&w=398&h=293&client=firefox-b&bih=654&biw=1198&q=BSA%20sidecar%20chassis%20drawing&ved=0ahUKEwie1YWi_YHfAhX4ShUIHWDvCpUQMwg-KAAwAA&iact=mrc&uact=8

HTH
John

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #757903
12/02/18 11:21 pm
12/02/18 11:21 pm
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Melbourne, Australia
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Villiers Offline
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Well oddly enough I was browsing through the Barnstormers NZ site over the weekend and found they have put up the BSA 1939 catalogue for our pleasure. The BSA Special Sports sidecar Model 21-44 shown there is markedly similar to this one even down to the little bustle in the backside. In fact given the usual illustrators licence in prettying up things for catalogue use I'd say it was the same.

Go and have a look.

Cheers,

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: Villiers] #757963
12/03/18 4:44 pm
12/03/18 4:44 pm
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Posts: 168
Hawaii USA
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cas.vanderwoude Offline OP
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hi Villiers - I think you have solved the mystery! Sure looks like that sports sidecar from the 1939 catalogue - right down to the paint design. But why is there a steering wheel in the sidecar?

[Linked Image]

Last edited by cas.vanderwoude; 12/05/18 12:00 am.
Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #757968
12/03/18 5:36 pm
12/03/18 5:36 pm
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Cornwall
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DM Offline
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Not a steering wheel, it's a chrome plated hand rail.

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: DM] #758001
12/03/18 8:40 pm
12/03/18 8:40 pm
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Hi,
Yes I will agree about the sidecar body id.
But the chassis is what I was referring to and that is different, not BSA

John

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: chaterlea25] #758023
12/03/18 10:15 pm
12/03/18 10:15 pm
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Hawaii USA
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cas.vanderwoude Offline OP
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Hawaii USA
It seems to me to be a BSA chassis from pre ww2 and looks virtually the same as the one in the catalogue (21-44). your links take me to a '48 M21 frame and a post-war sidecar frame,

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #758171
12/04/18 11:33 pm
12/04/18 11:33 pm
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Hi,
Which catalog ? Is it the 39 one in Barnstormers NZ

I have had several BSA chassis's including a leaf spring "swing arm" one on page 20 of the Barnstormers NZ
They all come to a point at the front , the one one the subject sidecar does not
All BSA chassis's fit directly onto the mounting near the rear axle, again the subject chassis does not
BSA basic chassis design did not change very much from the 20's through to the late 50's save for body springing going from pram springs to transverse leaf spring at the rear
Again they are all 4 point mounting, subject one is 3

John

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #758180
12/05/18 12:36 am
12/05/18 12:36 am
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Melbourne, Australia
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Villiers Offline
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I agree with John. The body may be BSA but the chassis is different and a three point mounting chassis has never been popular in Oz.

It was never any drama to shuffle around various bodies and chassis. We're not exactly talking aerospace engineering here and a stylish sporting body was always something to hang on to even if the chassis was a wreck.

I'm more curious about it's Australian history. I doubt very much that it was an official import through a BSA agency. It would be both too expensive plus known to have a chassis not built for Australian conditions. It's possible an incoming migrant brought it with him. This was the classic 10 pound Pom days and quite a few bikes came in that way. I knew of a "Built like a Bridge" Fanny Bee that came in that way. Then again since the 90's there has been a steady stream of 'classic' imports and exports with people making a steady living from the practice. At least it seems to have found a good home now. Few M21 would have left the factory with the expectation of ending up in Hawaii.

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: Villiers] #758265
12/05/18 9:22 pm
12/05/18 9:22 pm
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Hawaii USA
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cas.vanderwoude Offline OP
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Hi Villiers,
Yes it's all very interesting for sure...

The motorcycle it was attached to was sold new in 1949 by a dealer in Adelaide according to the BSA dispatch records. It is remarkably stock with almost no later modification. The sidecar body is painted to match the motorcycle but in the original BSA pattern (apparently they were painted blue as standard, and another option of color matching to the mated motorcycle. I think they have been paired together for a long time. The wear in the fork stanchions and bushes is so bad there is around 1/2 to 1 inch play forward and aft, I'm assuming from many years of heavy sidecar work.

The chassis is still a mystery but on the weekend I'll try to tip it over and get a better image. The running light on the wheel is an Australian item (Hella, made in Aus) so would have been attached at some time after original manufacture. And yes, the chassis is attached to the motorcycle by adapter plates which Chaterlea tells us is not correct for a BSA chassis. However, I'm assuming that connection points differed depending on which model BSA the chassis was originally designed to fit. Also there seem to be three distinct BSA chassis designs (compare the 21-44 with 21-42 and 6B6).

This bike was probably already in Hawaii by the 90's as far as I can work out, so probably arrived here earlier.

All in all it's an interesting package for me. Factor in that I was born in Holland just a few dozen miles away from where it was built, immigrated to Australia in the 1960's, before moving to Hawaii, and it seems I'm chasing this old girl around the planet! It's the only M21 on this island although there are also 2 M20's (one of them mine). Not bad for a little island with 100,000 people.

Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #758741
12/10/18 2:21 am
12/10/18 2:21 am
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cas.vanderwoude Offline OP
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Here are a few images of the undercariage. It looks like someone has made some alterations to the front mounting points, removing one and to me, it looks like the stub was re-attached to where the front upper mount would have been. I could easily be wrong (as I have been for most of this thread).



[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Last edited by cas.vanderwoude; 12/10/18 2:25 am.
Re: can anyone id this sidecar? [Re: cas.vanderwoude] #758958
12/11/18 8:58 pm
12/11/18 8:58 pm
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Hi
It would appear that the chassis construction is modified to allow "spring" movement of the lean angle between bike and sidecar
Much as described in an earlier post to allow for flexing on poor condition roads ???
I have not seen such an arrangement before ?

John


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