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Gasket or no gasket
#755294 11/07/18 4:58 am
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Denis J Offline OP
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Curious
I have tried it now a few ways

-The racer in me avoids gaskets as the metal to metal contact with a sealant seems much more reliable and easier to clean later (head gaskets still used of course)

-The refurb/resto side of me likes to use all the gaskets for originality and staying as true to the original design as possible.

Gaskets I like to avoid depending on machine use:
Cylinder base (all)
Rocker box (Triumph)
Timing cover (All Brit)
Primary cover (BSA/ Triumph, Enfield, Harley)

Gaskets I can’t avoid and tried
Clutch cover (Honda- causes shifter bind)
Valve cover (BSA Unit, anything Pre 1960 Italian)

Gaskets I convert to copper
- Head gaskets on all bikes...it’s great

I’ve never tried the copper rocker box gaskets
- I avoid the triumph rocker gaskets if possible to keep rock to a minimum and always check valve geometry to make sure it is still wrong, just like when new wink

I really like the idea of preventing cylinder rocking by removing the base gaskets and using only sealant

Copper head gaskets don’t fail like composite and help prevent hot spots. Heat transfer is excellent and consistent in my testing. I just tried MLS on Honda 305 Engine’s and CB750/900 twin cams with expected results being good. Time will tell.

Ok
Am I missing anything? Any tested advice is greatly appreciated.





Full time classic motorcycle mechanic and enthusiast to a fault
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Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #755304 11/07/18 10:34 am
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Don't know why you can't get by without a gasket on the valve cover on a BSA unit (I'm assuming twin??)

If on a unit twin, I always use a gasket on the timing case as the oil pump uses a gasket, its good for marrying up the taco drive with the oil pump.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #755311 11/07/18 11:52 am
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My AJS twin has 4 tappet covers, it would be a pain to clean and reapply sealant each time you take them off. The gaskets are stuck to the covers and have been there for 7 years now and don't leak.

Rob C

Re: Gasket or no gasket
Allan G #755322 11/07/18 3:40 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Don't know why you can't get by without a gasket on the valve cover on a BSA unit (I'm assuming twin??)

If on a unit twin, I always use a gasket on the timing case as the oil pump uses a gasket, its good for marrying up the taco drive with the oil pump.



Same here; haven't used a gasket on an A65 valve cover for years, and no leaks. Loctite 515.

On the inner timing cover, depending on the oil pump I'm using (some upgrade pump bodies BARELY clear the cover) I use a gasket if I need it to space the cover out enough so it doesn't contact the oil pump. Otherwise, Loctite 515.

Agree on copper head gaskets. Every composite gasket I've ever tried has failed at some point. I don't understand what they're for or why they're made that way, but properly annealed and torqued copper WON'T fail ....

Lannis


"Until it's safe" means "Never".
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #755323 11/07/18 3:57 pm
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My Greeves (Villiers engine) spat aluminiun head gaskets out for fun. I tried copper head gaskets, it spat them out too.
I then tried no gasket, just a smear of sealant. It kept most of the combustion inside but had a slight leak and a dribble of oil.
Finally I copied the method used on an Aprilia 125, I machined a groove in the head and fitted an "O" ring, perfect sealing.
My B31 (Goldie top end) has the head lapped to the barrel, an "O" ring and just a smear of sealant around the pushrod tunnel, again completely leak free


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #755340 11/07/18 6:30 pm
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In the 20 some odd years I've run my A10 I have NEVER been able to get the rocker boxes to seal properly. Tried various thickness gaskets and dressings to no avail. I've made sure both surfaces are flat and that the bolt holes in the head are not pulled upward. I've seen fully annealed copper gaskets on offer and was thinking of trying them. Not real sure how well just sealant alone would work as I've been told the trouble I'm having is due to the top motor mounts being attached directly to the rocker boxes. I just know I've used a lot of Brakleen over the years trying to keep the top end clean.


1960 BSA A10
2007 Suzuki Bandit
1957 A10
(Used to be a Triumph here)
71 Norton Commando
17 Triumph Bonneville

Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #755344 11/07/18 6:54 pm
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I like to fit a gasket to my A65 rocker cover, stuck to cover with Well seal greased the other side, this needs little to zero clean up when doin the tappets. The current gasket has re sealed at least 4 times using this method.
Same for timing chest and primary chaincase.
years ago I was a big fan of RTV for the chaincase, sometimes this works too well and can be a chore to release.
Its certainly cheap, but a pain to clean up.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Gasket or no gasket
gavin eisler #755348 11/07/18 8:38 pm
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Denis J Offline OP
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
I like to fit a gasket to my A65 rocker cover, stuck to cover with Well seal greased the other side, this needs little to zero clean up when doin the tappets. The current gasket has re sealed at least 4 times using this method.
Same for timing chest and primary chaincase.
years ago I was a big fan of RTV for the chaincase, sometimes this works too well and can be a chore to release.
Its certainly cheap, but a pain to clean up.



I have never tried the glue/grease method. I like the idea. Today I am buttoning up a T140. Going to use this method on the rocker covers and primary as I see this bike every 6 months for service. Friend/Customer will likely be ok with re-using the gaskets.


Full time classic motorcycle mechanic and enthusiast to a fault
Re: Gasket or no gasket
MikeG #755349 11/07/18 8:43 pm
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Denis J Offline OP
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Originally Posted by MikeG
In the 20 some odd years I've run my A10 I have NEVER been able to get the rocker boxes to seal properly. Tried various thickness gaskets and dressings to no avail. I've made sure both surfaces are flat and that the bolt holes in the head are not pulled upward. I've seen fully annealed copper gaskets on offer and was thinking of trying them. Not real sure how well just sealant alone would work as I've been told the trouble I'm having is due to the top motor mounts being attached directly to the rocker boxes. I just know I've used a lot of Brakleen over the years trying to keep the top end clean.



This is frustrating. I have had good luck on my personal A10 with Permatex 51813 same a Loctite 518. I went this way because of the engine mounts. I assumed any mounting needed a solid surface to work against or the vibrations would cause movement at the gasket surface.
..oh, don't forget the thread-locker!

If you go the copper route, annealing is paramount and cover the copper with "copper spray gasket"


Full time classic motorcycle mechanic and enthusiast to a fault
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Allan G #755350 11/07/18 8:45 pm
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Denis J Offline OP
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[quote=Allan Gill]Don't know why you can't get by without a gasket on the valve cover on a BSA unit (I'm assuming twin??)

- I seem to be blessed with warped covers. I use the gasket to take up the gap. Usually .010 or more and there is little time to dress the cover on a plate. The gaskets work with little issue.


Full time classic motorcycle mechanic and enthusiast to a fault
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #755374 11/08/18 1:33 am
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Denis J Offline OP
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Differential expansion..interesting. I am making some calls tomorrow to the manufacturers

Machine surfaces don’t seem to matter too much. After learning that you can close up a 1/4” gap (and this is preferred to the cork) on a small block gm manifold with RTV my life was never the same.

Loctite shows a .050” gap sealing. I’ve never gone that far but interesting


Full time classic motorcycle mechanic and enthusiast to a fault
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #755375 11/08/18 1:35 am
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I’ve never seen welseal...it’s horribly expensive to ship ($46 + the purchase price)

Is this different from Hylomar or 518?


Full time classic motorcycle mechanic and enthusiast to a fault
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #755378 11/08/18 2:33 am
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From the point of view of someone who doesn't race and doesn't really stress the bike much and just wants a reliable ride that doesn't leak:

Cylinder base - gasket, no sealant.
Rocker boxes - gasket, no sealant.
Inner timing cover on a BSA - gasket and sealant (using Three-Bond these days)

Anything that I expect to remove frequently, like sump plates, rocker box covers, and primary cover - gasket cemented to the cover only. For these I make my own gaskets out of rubber-fiber compound, as found in automotive supply stores. Thicker and more resilient than the typical pattern gaskets. Covers can be removed many times without disturbing or damaging the gaskets.

After a couple of re-do's, engines that didn't break in right for one reason or another and had to be torn down again, I've become more conscious whenever I'm putting something together that it may have to come apart again. And I've been faced with some hellish cleanup jobs - one in particular was a Triumph on which someone had used those wire-reinforced rocker box gaskets AND some sort of sealant or cement which no solvent in my shop would dissolve, and which would be removed only by hours of very careful scraping.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #755379 11/08/18 2:37 am
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Originally Posted by Denis J


If you go the copper route, annealing is paramount and cover the copper with "copper spray gasket"



I tried everything from welseal, copper coat, silver pint and anything else that has been mentioned on the copper head gasket, now I run it without any goop at all following what a rolls Royce R/D guy did on his A65, the only time it’s leaked since is when I’ve pulled threads in the barrel or used inferior fasteners. And with that it’s from having the throttle screwed right round for a period of time, never on a normal ride.

I glass/flatten every possible surface when building a bike, however I feel your pain with the time aspect, being an ex mechanic I know how fast you need to get vehicles back out and whilst your not doing a bad job. Your working as best you can with what your given.

The only oil that comes out now is a couple of drops from the breather, if that motor comes apart again I’ll look at fitting a reed valve breather and blocking the original.


Now let’s all have a beer beerchug

68’ A65 Lightning “clubman”
71’ A65 823 Thunderbolt (undergoing restoration)
67’ D10 sportsman (undergoing restoration)
68’ D14 trials (undergoing transformation)

Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #757750 12/01/18 8:01 pm
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Maybe just a slight side track to this thred, but I have a question about gasket sealer. I was given a couple tubes of Hermetite Silver by a friend and as I was planning on doing some engine work on my 73 Triumph Tiger I was thinking of using it on that project. I was planning on using 3 Bond but I have the FREE Hermetite. I have never used (or even heard of) Hermetite before, so is it any good or should I stick to 3 Bond? I hope I didn't just start a oil thred.

Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #757794 12/02/18 3:40 am
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Back in the 60s in the UK the only sealant widely available was Red Hermetite.
I used it and it was OK as a sealant--usually used with gaskets.
Then later Golden Hermetite was introduced and I used that for years--it was OK----seemed to be a bit thicker than the red and worked OK.
Your post was the first I have heard of Silver Hermetite.
It is not an anerobic sealant --curing in the absence of air --but rather goes off by the evaporation of the carrying solvent.
Use it by all means--but as Nick says--use it sparingly---excess has been known to block oilways etc.

Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #757801 12/02/18 6:11 am
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Indian Head gasket cement thumbsup


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V "Wotan"
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #757986 12/03/18 6:58 pm
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This is one of those personal preference items, and I come at it from a different direction. Although I am now just an hack old street rider, I raced Triumphs forever, since the late 60's on and off, dirt track, motocross, and in particular road raced a T140 in a Champion frame in AHRMA for almost 25 years. This bike saw 7200 rpm every shift for thousands and thousands of miles of racing, and it had a fairly high end spec, 11.5 :1 Arias pistons, Carillos, Nourish crank, etc. so the pressure on the gaskets was fairly high. Race bikes used that hard may as well have a zipper on them, they come apart so often, and to keep them going, they have to come apart quickly in the pits and go back together just as quickly, and they absolutely cannot leak. For example, until I put a Newby belt drive and clutch on this, I had the primary open every race or two working on the clutch and the primary chain and tensioner. In other words, the gasket sealer has to work well, and be opened and closed quickly.

To effectively seal this engine, I used copper base and head gasket. The base gasket is wiped with a thin, say .005 or less, coat of red hi temp silicone, no primary gasket with the same thin coat of red silicone (until I weent to a dry primary), and wire reinforced rocker box gaskets, and good quality valve cover and transmission gaskets (transmission seems to use the gasket thickness for end play), again, each wiped with a thin coat of red silicone. Zero leaks, and the silicone is very quick and easy to clean up and replace, unlike 3Bond, which takes quite an effort to fix--something you don't have any time for in the pits. Remove a thin coat of silicone by wiping the gasket surface with your finger and a shop rag, but remove 3 Bond with a scraper and carb cleaner and a bronze brush and a bunch of elbow grease--not much comparison there. Building a street bike I expect to say together forever, I do use 3bond on the base gasket, because it lasts longer, the silicone seems to extrude out of the base gasket joint after awhile, but even on street engines that stay together for long periods, silicone lasts fine everywhere else and is much easier to work with. I do not understand folks' dislike of red silicone, and my guess is people use way too much of it--if the coat of it is basically spread down with your finger thin enough to be semitransparent and the excess wiped off it has worked fine for me. I certainly can see if you use too much it will go everywhere in the engine, which is not good.

On the head gasket, I use a copper gasket, either standard thickness or .020 depending, I put it together dry, and to solve a persistent compression leakage problem between the cylinders, I had a machine shop machine a groove for an 0-ring--.040 stainless safety wire--immediately opposite the groove in the top of the cylinder. The o-ring pushes the gasket into the groove and it does not leak compression.

Someone above said it is hard to get things apart that are sealed with silicone--all I have ever done is tap the primary cover or trans case covers with a dead blow hammer, and they come apart easily--but 3Bond isn't nearly so cooperative.

I did put my Commando together with no base gasket and 3Bond on the joint to avoid rocking. It has been together a long, long time, and doesn't leak either.

Anyway, different strokes for different folks, I am sure people disagree with using a thin coat of red silicone, but I have put a lot of these engines together, many times, and that is what has worked for me for this application--silicone is very effective, and quick and easy to open, clean, and close, and absolutely does not leak.

Last edited by linker48x; 12/03/18 7:10 pm.
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #757990 12/03/18 7:27 pm
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"Someone above said it is hard to get things apart that are sealed with silicone"
That was me. Silicone RTV is essentially the same stuff that they stick glass aquariums together with, they have no clamping fasteners and do not come apart easily or leak. If you degrease gasket faces thoroughly then RTV sticks like cach to a blanket, if you dont degrease thoroughly then it is easily parted. A full degrease when building a fish tank means wiping down all sealing surfaces with Acetic Acid ( vinegar) and allowing to dry. Acetic acid is also handy for cleaning up overspill. Petrol/ Gasolene is also useful for clean up , it makes RTV expand to about 50 times its original volume, ever seen a Monobloc resealed with this stuff, hilarious!
Silicone RTV is good stuff, the problem with it is overuse . it will seal A10 and T140 rockerboxes, i know why folk are against it, if you are rebuilding a motor where someone thought a bit more sealer would be better it can be very disheartening.


71 Devimead, John Hill, John Holmes A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #757996 12/03/18 7:57 pm
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Some random thoughts on Brit Bike gasketing as follows:-
- there are some areas where you cannot use a gasket, this includes things like B44 inner timing covers where close shimming of the main & layshaft is essential for correct gear operation and also crank case halves for the similar reasons. Metal to metal contact is needed in these areas to ensure accuracy.
- although you can get away without a cylinder base gasket, doing so will increase the CR slightly, so worth considering if youre tuning etc.
- for oil tightness, its essential to ensure the surfaces are flat and any stud holes dont have pulled up metal, correct any imperfections by surfacing the flange against a glass plate with meduim grade sandpaper glued on, countersink any stud holes.
- I've used the dreaded red hermitite back in the 70's and it was hopeless, luckily there are much better alternatives these days. I use Blue Hylomar and Silcone RTV with equal success, Loctite 518 is also excellent and has gap filling properties.
- dont forget to check for oil leaking past fastner holes, a fibre washer under fastner heads is often useful to stop leaks


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #758037 12/04/18 12:50 am
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i still have a tube of red hematite. nothing left of the label. maybe i'll try it on pancakes

518 is working well on the cases, at least as good as blue hylomar did.

inner gearbox takes black permatex, outer takes white permatex

chaincase cover has a gasket glued on with brown permatex

i have some welseal now. i'll try it when i have it apart.

orange silicone works on the geabox too.

clear or black silicone seals the pushrod tubes from the outside when i mess up assembly.

JB Weld down the camshaft oil feed hole, around a threaded plug,


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #758039 12/04/18 12:52 am
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Strawberry flavor?

Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #758040 12/04/18 12:54 am
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the way i cook pancakes, anything would improve them.


every day you do not take a chance is a day of your life that you will never get back.
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #758148 12/04/18 8:28 pm
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Back on the subject of gasket compounds, as mentioned previously, I was a fan of red hermitite in the late 70's. I used this compound extensivley on my first bike a BSA C15SS80, attempting to seal the leaks which seemed to come from everywhere.

My attempts at making the bike leak free were not very successful, cleaning off the old gasket compound became tiresome until someone suggested using paint stripper. Turned out that Nitromoors paint stripper (methylene chloride) is very good at removing gasket compounds. Loctite sell a gasket remover aerosol (Loctite 7200) which I believe is also methylene chloride based, just dont use it near your paintwork or pancakes.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Gasket or no gasket
Denis J #758184 12/05/18 1:22 am
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For 35 years or so,,,IF somethings a problem,,, I make sure everything is just about antiseptically clean first. New hardware a must. Threads cleaned/chased. IF a head and a copper head gasket is to be used..even if new I aneal it twice. Hang it and just the lightest dusting of a copper spray and let it dry really good. A good quality, calibrated torque wrench and go for it.

For where regular gaskets are recommended , The same with the cleanliness, hardware, threads chased,, Then the lightest possible application of real Hylomar let it dry a bit [15 min or so] and torque it on there. IF still a problem I sometimes will make a gasket out of thinner material... IF possible lap the 2 mating surfaces,,,,,then the thinner gasket, the light coat of hylomar and again torque'er up..

IF a sloppy primary cover or something like that,,,well, a couple gaskets and plenty of hylomar,,ha ha.. - Good luck..,G.

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