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Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #757993
12/03/18 7:33 pm
12/03/18 7:33 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,251
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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I reckon the Charlies filter market is/was mostly as an insurance policy for folk who foolishly got their frames blasted with beads/ shot whatever.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 12/03/18 7:34 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
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Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #757999
12/03/18 8:29 pm
12/03/18 8:29 pm
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Posts: 3,902
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DMadigan Offline
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To help prevent running cavitation you could do what H*rley did and pressurize the oil tank by rerouting the breather back into the tank then adding a residual pressure valve (as sometimes used on brake systems) to the vent line. But, yes, the filter would have to be primed. Just put a syringe on the feed line and suck the oil through.
I made a double filter bottom plate fot the OIF using a Boxster filter inside and spin-on. Generated no interest.
[Linked Image]
I mentioned using two flanged bushes, one from each side. That way the thrust pushes againt the bearing into the case. Pushing against the full width bearing could move it in the case.
Still, if the recess is already there in the A70 case the thrust washer could be smaller in diameter and the thrust washer would clear the pump.
The gap between the bushes can be small, certainly no more than 0.062" and an annular groove can be put into the case so the oil feed is fed through all the way around the gap.

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758008
12/03/18 9:23 pm
12/03/18 9:23 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,620
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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Personally I prefer the return oil filter to be the type that uses the standard Trident filter.
This to me blends in to the bike frame more than the canister type filter as it is more "tubular" in appearance.
I have never come across a problem attributable to the Charlies filter.
I know of a couple of people who feared blockage of the filter unit so much that they used an extended stud through the center of the filter and stacked two B25 filter units one on top of the other.
However this strikes me as not just belt and braces but belt, braces and baling string.
Just my two cents worth of course.

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: DMadigan] #758025
12/03/18 10:19 pm
12/03/18 10:19 pm
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
England
Servodyne Offline OP
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It's interesting that you mention the Boxster. Being a dry sump engine Porsche elected to place the filter on the return side and not place any restrictions between the oil tank and feed pump. So I guess if that design is good enough for Porsche then it'll do for me. SRM also warn against this in their instructions when you purchase one of their oil pumps.

I like the idea using two flanged bushes with an oil gap in between aligning with the drillings in the crankcase. The outer one would require some form of locking to prevent rotation, but it would allow a plain shaft or sleeve to be used with just an oil hole to feed the big ends.


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758027
12/03/18 10:27 pm
12/03/18 10:27 pm
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NickL Offline
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Myself, being a lazy sod, i like to use a return filter that i can change easily, obtain easily, buy cheaply and
not get covered in oil when i change it. It must of course do the job properly.
I use the norton type heads with a small 20/16mm adapter made up so i can use the Z79A filter which is available
for less than $10 at any auto store here, or on eBay, amazon etc etc. Standard on heaps of jap/korean/yank badged cars.
Using a large exhaust type clamp on the oily frame bikes means you can fit the filter in a vertical plane, so easy to change.
On my 69 triumph a smaller exhaust type clamp allows fitting the filter behind the left hand toolbox cover again vertically. Easy.
A simple bent bracket allows vertical fitment to the dry framed a65 off the RHS engine plate. Easy.

Human nature, if a job is easy, you are more inclined to do it. Simples eh?


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758061
12/04/18 2:24 am
12/04/18 2:24 am
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DMadigan Offline
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Servodyne, I am not sure which Porsche your were thinking about but it was not the Boxster. I have a '73 911 and '99 986, both have the filter between the pump and oil system. The 986 does not have an oil tank. The oil sits in a deep sump.
A peg like the Triumph 500 timing bush can be used to keep the bush from turning.
The spin-on filter is what is used on the T595 Daytona and several makes of Japanese manufacturers.

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: DMadigan] #758082
12/04/18 8:48 am
12/04/18 8:48 am
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
England
Servodyne Offline OP
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Ok it must be the earlier 911/916 I was thinking about then.

[Linked Image]


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: DMadigan] #758116
12/04/18 4:16 pm
12/04/18 4:16 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,135
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
To help prevent running cavitation you could do what H*rley did and pressurize the oil tank by rerouting the breather back into the tank then adding a residual pressure valve (as sometimes used on brake systems) to the vent line. But, yes, the filter would have to be primed. Just put a syringe on the feed line and suck the oil through.



But does harley have they filter in the oil tank or further down the system? I can’t remember how much the oil tank holds but say it’s 3 litres then your looking at around 2kg weight of oil head pressure pushing its way through the filter, as air has a lower density than oil this should be displaced by the oil itself. If that filter is down the pipe by any length then you will need pressure above it to force it down and through the filter (I believe SRM’s refrence to a filter is the canister type)

You could pressurise the tank though, blanking off the cam breather and using a rocker breather linked into the frames top tube. However you will need to know the max pressure you could get away with and have a bleed off valve, as well as a one way valve between the engine and the frame.

If you have a filter of the triumph internal the, you could do a flow rate test by fitting it without the filter, and seeing how much oil flows into a beaker over a set time. Then drain off and refit with the filter and run the test again. You could just use the drain bolt which some have fitted to save messing up any pipe work. Course if there is a difference you need to know what the flow rate is required by the pump. But further restriction by the smaller oil holes through the engine will probably still be the biggest restriction.


beerchug
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758119
12/04/18 4:37 pm
12/04/18 4:37 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,667
Scotland
kommando Offline
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The amount of oil in the tank does not create the pressure but its the height above the oil pump, the tank could be a 55 gal drum but if its at the back wheel then there will be no pressure, an egg cup full of oil with a pipe to the pump held at head height will create a lot more pressure. That is how I worked out the minimum strength of the spring needed in a non return valve to stop wet sumping, it was 18" column of oil, volume did not come into it.

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758125
12/04/18 5:47 pm
12/04/18 5:47 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,135
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
I was referring to it quenching the filter

Once the filter is quenched your at the same point as if you were running through a strainer. However most of the oil in the rear tunnel is above the height of the pump.

Last edited by Allan Gill; 12/04/18 6:32 pm. Reason: Second paragraph added

beerchug
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758131
12/04/18 6:34 pm
12/04/18 6:34 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,251
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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How did the filter get on fire?
Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick, and apologies for swerving off topic, but why does the Charlies type filter need to be primed ?, its sitting at the bottom of a pipe full of oil, its an open cartridge , oil will flow through it as soon as its submerged, there might be some air trapped in the feed pipe between the frame and the pump, that will bleed out through an old pump, a new pump might need the frame pressurised to push through but that would happen whether a filter was fitted or not.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: gavin eisler] #758136
12/04/18 7:03 pm
12/04/18 7:03 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,135
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Joined: May 2013
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
How did the filter get on fire?
Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick, and apologies for swerving off topic, but why does the Charlies type filter need to be primed ?, its sitting at the bottom of a pipe full of oil, its an open cartridge , oil will flow through it as soon as its submerged, there might be some air trapped in the feed pipe between the frame and the pump, that will bleed out through an old pump, a new pump might need the frame pressurised to push through but that would happen whether a filter was fitted or not.


Fire? Lol I’m assuming your referring to my saying quenched?

Regarding the Charlie filter, my point exactly. I’ve primed an engine in seconds by starting the bike up
(The journals being coving in assembly line designed for no oil at first start up) it primes a sh*t load faster then 100 kicks on the kicker with the plugs out.


beerchug
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758167
12/04/18 10:55 pm
12/04/18 10:55 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,171
Aus
N
NickL Offline
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NickL  Offline
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Aus
Talk about unnecessary complication and BS.......................

Why not go the whole hog and have a new timing cover die cast with fittings for a filter between the pump and either end feed or
radial feed? (or both as a few of you would probably like!)
Why not just chuck the a65 motor in the bin and fit a honda or kwaka motor?

About 99% of cars have the filter in the return line. Most do 150k+ miles these days with no problem.
How many miles do you blokes expect from one of these old crap motors before rebuild? How many miles do you do in a year?
The sludge trap should be checked at 30k really so the motor's got to be stripped for that.
I ride my bikes quiet hard, frequent use to 7k and expect and get 30k out of them between overhauls.
What advantages/gains are you actually looking for?


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758175
12/04/18 11:43 pm
12/04/18 11:43 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 747
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Online content
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Isle of Wight, UK
Why that level of hostility NickL?

If the subject is irrelevant to you, why involve yourself in it?

If you are so experienced and beyond these matters, why waste your time junking other folks thoughts?

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758201
12/05/18 4:53 am
12/05/18 4:53 am
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,171
Aus
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NickL Offline
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NickL  Offline
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Sorry, i take it all back, no offence intended. I wasn't trashing anyone intentionally.
Not being hostile just asking what benefits they are trying to achieve, messing about with stuff that already works.
Any mods to these old crates should be done to improve them in one way or another, for instance Dave came up
with a brilliant design for a good oil pump, yet no-one took that up, a real positive improvement. Modification to the
cylinder head oil feed has been done and proved but no-one took that up either.
If you are racing these things then uprating stuff progressively is sensible as stresses increase, but most blokes
are plodding these around the houses for maybe 1-2000 miles per year. What possible benefit can a dual oil filter
setup be? Many owners are changing the oil before it's done anything anyway. The bottom ends of these bikes
are far more than adequate for general use why piss about modifying and complicating them unless forced into it
due to failures or excessive wear. Build them properly as standard and they last. I sited my own bike as an instance, that's all.
The engineer in me always ask's 'why change this?' what is the benefit? Any development must be an improvement
or it's not worth doing. I could have spent half my working life changing components on working systems to use
more modern technology with absolutely no benefit at all, i f i chose to. I see these in the same way, i cannot help it.

Last edited by NickL; 12/05/18 5:01 am.

No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758203
12/05/18 7:01 am
12/05/18 7:01 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 345
Forfar, Scotland
J
JER.Hill Offline
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Forfar, Scotland
Hi

Well said Nick. Based on realism and common sense as every. I totally agree with you, in that if you can't make an improvement why waste your time.

Look forward to your next posts as always.

John

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: NickL] #758357
12/06/18 3:05 pm
12/06/18 3:05 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,135
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Originally Posted by NickL
Sorry, i take it all back, no offence intended. I wasn't trashing anyone intentionally.
Not being hostile just asking what benefits they are trying to achieve, messing about with stuff that already works.
Any mods to these old crates should be done to improve them in one way or another, for instance Dave came up
with a brilliant design for a good oil pump, yet no-one took that up, a real positive improvement. Modification to the
cylinder head oil feed has been done and proved but no-one took that up either.
If you are racing these things then uprating stuff progressively is sensible as stresses increase, but most blokes
are plodding these around the houses for maybe 1-2000 miles per year. What possible benefit can a dual oil filter
setup be? Many owners are changing the oil before it's done anything anyway. The bottom ends of these bikes
are far more than adequate for general use why piss about modifying and complicating them unless forced into it
due to failures or excessive wear. Build them properly as standard and they last. I sited my own bike as an instance, that's all.
The engineer in me always ask's 'why change this?' what is the benefit? Any development must be an improvement
or it's not worth doing. I could have spent half my working life changing components on working systems to use
more modern technology with absolutely no benefit at all, i f i chose to. I see these in the same way, i cannot help it.



I didn't intend on fitting a filter in the return line, I can't see the point. However a filter in the frame is a much neater solution than having one clamped to the frame, my pre OIF uses the 2CV filter, it generally works fine and there is nothing restricting its removal, also if it does drop oil im not cleaning up crank cases/ frame etc. The pre filter in the OIF does the same job, its clean! I'd also filter my oil before it goes around the engine than aftrwards.


beerchug
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758363
12/06/18 3:47 pm
12/06/18 3:47 pm
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Posts: 3,902
ca, us
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DMadigan Offline
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Putting a filter inside the OI frame is cleaner than a Norton style filter sitting horizontal above the swingarm pivot bolt but the oil picks up dirt from the engine so putting the filter in the feed dumps the dirt in the frame. There are alternatives to the horizontal Norton filter that do not dump oil on the frame. A spin-on filter can be fit behind the frame base plate or even centered on the plate with a little extra work.
I can see your desire to keep it looking stock. I would like to know what you meant by "it generally works fine"?

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: DMadigan] #758426
12/07/18 12:51 pm
12/07/18 12:51 pm
Joined: May 2013
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Originally Posted by DMadigan
I would like to know what you meant by "it generally works fine"?



The filter in the return line does its job as it should, however I feel it puts more back pressure on the system which dumps more oil to the rockers. Then there is more oil in the crank cases. I know you can T off after the filter in the return line to feed the rockers and whilst I don't doubt that it does work, its more pipe work that I'm trying to keep down. My 68' already has a cooler and a thermostat (however with the thermostat fitted it isn't making the situation any worse than before they were fitted)

If riding the bike at normal casual riding then it doesn't use a drop of oil, If im pushing the bike then it will use oil. It doesn't burn any and has total seal rings, none coming down the guides and it doesn't leak either! however if the bike has been pushed some then you will find that when its cooled down in the garage there will be a small puddle from the timed breather, if I have not been accelerating hard etc etc then there won't be any oil beneath it, but it won't have dropped lower in the tank either. (As i say it was the same before I used the oil cooler).


beerchug
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758498
12/07/18 7:57 pm
12/07/18 7:57 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,251
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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argyll. scotland, uk
I have an " Anglo bike " IIRC spin on filter mount , cast with an off set so the canister hangs down approx 3" to the TS fro rear wheel centre line to allow rear wheel clearance,these were made specifically for OIF early models and the oil lines marry up very well, it mounts with a typical U clamp and brace, its easy to change 5 minutes tops.. Just googled it , seems they are no longer available or quite probably I have miss remembered the name , I purchased it around 1990 ish. Once my frame sump is boxed up it stays that way till the next major teardown, maybe 10- 15 years, I hate messing with that stuff, changing that internal thing looks like a real chore, personally , i am way too lazy for that.

The required T off for the rocker line after the filter is easily hidden between the carbs, I trimmed the hard tail on the rocker cover union a little to get a neater fit.. With the stock routing you have more pipe on display with the long rocker feed from the manifold.

any additional filter is probably a "good thing" so it boils down to laziness versus aesthetics I suppose.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 12/07/18 8:07 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758543
12/07/18 11:19 pm
12/07/18 11:19 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,171
Aus
N
NickL Offline
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I spy an 'oil filter' thread.............................................................


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758553
12/08/18 12:36 am
12/08/18 12:36 am
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Posts: 3,902
ca, us
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DMadigan Offline
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... and now for something completely different.

Re: BSA A10 to A70 A65 crank conversion [Re: Servodyne] #758624
12/08/18 8:06 pm
12/08/18 8:06 pm
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
England
Servodyne Offline OP
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Servodyne  Offline OP
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England
As my closing comment on the subject of OIF oil filters. Due to the woefully marginal capacity of the OIF oil tank, the only thing I would put into the oil tank is oil. An external oil filter on the return obviously helps, not only with capacity but also vital cooling. The feed to the rockers is taken off the return feed banjo so doesn't effect oiling of the rockers. This is my firebird filter which I've adopted onto the A70.

[Linked Image]


1957 BSA A10 Spitfire
1971 BSA A65 Firebird
1971 BSA A70 Lightning
1975 Norton Commando
1961 Norton 99
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