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Norton big twin engine numbers. #756412
11/17/18 9:45 pm
11/17/18 9:45 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 26
Houston, Texas
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Samsmc1 Offline OP
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I have a question and I'm not sure how to phrase it, so please bear with me. I just bought what I believe to be an early P11. The serial number starts out 1229**. In a paper written by Paul G. Morin titled The Atlas Hybrids - Part 2, he states that P11 " Engine Numbers 121007 to 129145 - Total Approximately 2500". If you add 2500 to 121007, you come out with 123507 as the last serial number if the 2500 quantity of P11's produced is accurate. I have personally seen several P11's with later numbers (in the 129*** range). That means Norton obviously stamped their cases with the serial numbers without the initial prefix of P11, 20M, N15, G15 etc. prior to installation. The model prefix added when the engine was placed in a chassis.
Now we get to the question - How can I verify where my P11 was in the sequence of P11's produced or better yet, where can I find documentation and not speculation? My P11 has a Matchless Tank Badge on it. I was informed by someone in the Matchless Owners club that approximately 500 P11's had Matchless tank badges and were titled as MATCHLESS.
Again where can I document this?
Thanks
Sam

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Re: Norton big twin engine numbers. [Re: Samsmc1] #756420
11/17/18 11:02 pm
11/17/18 11:02 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,836
Norfolk, UK
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Norfolk, UK
Originally Posted by Samsmc1
Now we get to the question - How can I verify where my P11 was in the sequence of P11's produced or better yet, where can I find documentation and not speculation? My P11 has a Matchless Tank Badge on it. I was informed by someone in the Matchless Owners club that approximately 500 P11's had Matchless tank badges and were titled as MATCHLESS.
Again where can I document this?


VMCC, UK NOC or Andover Norton.

https://vmcc.net/Factory-Records
https://www.nortonownersclub.org/records-dating
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/factory-records/

Re: Norton big twin engine numbers. [Re: Samsmc1] #756441
11/18/18 2:12 am
11/18/18 2:12 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,361
Oztralia
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Rohan Offline
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Do the VMCC still have this stuff, I thought I'd read it all went to the NOC Norton Owners Club,
to stop rampant racketeering in numbers. And do Andover have any P11 records ?
The NOC charge a small fee for retrieving this, and less of a fee if you are a member ?

There is chat elsewhere that the P11/ancestors could arrive in a crate with the decals (badges) not fixed,
and several sets of badges supplied - the Dealer would fix whatever set as appropriate.
There are several eyewitness reports to this effect. Nortons sold better than Matchies, it seems ?
Exactly the same bike though, badges (and numbers) aside.
??

Re: Norton big twin engine numbers. [Re: Samsmc1] #757897
12/02/18 10:21 pm
12/02/18 10:21 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 26
Houston, Texas
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Samsmc1 Offline OP
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Houston, Texas
Rohan - every new motorcycle comes to the dealer with what's called an MSO (Manufacturers Statement of Origin). This is the document turned into the various states DMV's (Department of Motor Vehicles) here in the states upon the first registration of the new motorcycle. It has to have the brand name on it. If the information I received from an officer of the AJS/Matchless' club (U.S.) is correct and the P11's with Matchless badges were in fact titled as a Matchless, the dealer would not have had the option of placing whatever badge he wanted on the bike.
I know what year this P11 is, therefore what can the dating records tell me that I don't already know? Do you think the NOC can tell me where this bike was in the production line and verify the information I was given that this bike was titled as a Matchless?
Thanks
Sam

Re: Norton big twin engine numbers. [Re: Samsmc1] #757940
12/03/18 9:16 am
12/03/18 9:16 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,361
Oztralia
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Rohan Offline
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All I can suggest is that you try the NOC and see what they have - I know not....

I was talking what was happening back when the bikes were new - they didn't call it "badge engineering" then for nothing.
Both some dealers and some new owners reported they had a choice back then, all the badges were in the crate.

Is this MSO a 2018 type document, or was it a 1960s doco ?

by the by, just for interest, it was mentioned on the NOC forum that while AN can look up the details in their copy of the records,
the DVLA ( in the UK) do not list them as a acceptable source of info. Curious...?

Re: Norton big twin engine numbers. [Re: Samsmc1] #758170
12/04/18 11:32 pm
12/04/18 11:32 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 26
Houston, Texas
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Samsmc1 Offline OP
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MSO's have always been required by the various states, otherwise how would a dealer certify that this was a new vehicle being sold to the 1st owner.

Re: Norton big twin engine numbers. [Re: Samsmc1] #758528
12/07/18 10:08 pm
12/07/18 10:08 pm
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Rohan Offline
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Has anyone seen one of these MSO's ?
They would have been supplied by Berliners ?, since the USA is the only place with this system ?

Given that you appear these days to be able to purchase them with anything printed on them that you want,
they must be of limited security value ??

Re: Norton big twin engine numbers. [Re: Rohan] #758613
12/08/18 5:40 pm
12/08/18 5:40 pm
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Posts: 26
Houston, Texas
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Samsmc1 Offline OP
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Houston, Texas
I was Ducati and Moto Guzzi dealer in the late '70's thru about 1993. I have seen a number of these documents. For many years we were allowed to purchase other new Motorcycles from dealers who carried other makes, so I've seen plenty of MSO's in my time.
Let's flip the question back in your direction - what documents did a new bike dealer in the UK or Australia get from the manufacturer or importer to turn in to the local authorities charged with registering new motor vehicles for the first time?
In answer to the other part of your question, MSO's were stamped or sealed by the Manufacturer or importer with their registered trademark. If anyone ever duplicated this document (reprinted new MSO.s and forged this trademark), they were in deep S**t when the forgery was discovered.
Thanks
Sam

Re: Norton big twin engine numbers. [Re: Samsmc1] #758617
12/08/18 6:06 pm
12/08/18 6:06 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,667
Scotland
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MSO seems to be US/NAFTA requirement, it used to be a requirement of Cummins when I worked for a company that exported goods from UK to the US. But it has never been a requirement within the UK or Europe and I doubt it forms any part of the VMCC/NOC records.

Re: Norton big twin engine numbers. [Re: Samsmc1] #758703
12/09/18 7:13 pm
12/09/18 7:13 pm
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Posts: 26
Houston, Texas
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Samsmc1 Offline OP
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Houston, Texas
What do VMCC/NOC records have to do with new bike licensing registrations? I would assume their records show when the vehicle was made, who it was shipped to if exported, who the selling dealer was either export or local and also who the warranty was registered to. I once ordered a new Shrine Harley that the dealer paid me to not take He subsequently exported the bike to Saudi Arabia, but Harley still had the warranty registered in my name even though I never took possession of the bike. I threw this in to demonstrate that new bike warranty registrations don't always tell the story. Tell me what documents were turned to the taxing and licensing authorities in the UK, Australia or any other country to obtain the original license plate, disc, sticker or whatever showed the local police that the vehicle was properly registered?
Sam

Re: Norton big twin engine numbers. [Re: Samsmc1] #758711
12/09/18 9:29 pm
12/09/18 9:29 pm
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Posts: 2,361
Oztralia
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Rohan Offline
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I privately imported a bike into Oz about 20 years ago (not a new one), and all I needed to do this was to pay a fee to the Dept of Transport.
All I got was a plain looking sheet of paper with the J approval number. All I need to do to register it was quote this number.
Its the same for dealers and new bikes ? Its all prearranged - and based on extracting those fees....

The USA looks to have a layer of bureaucracy beyond what most other countries have.
Dunno why we are beating this to death though, the history of the hybrids is fairly well known and written up ?

https://www.nortonownersclub.org/history/atlas-hybrids-1
http://www.realclassic.co.uk/amcnortonhybrid01.html
https://walridgemike.wordpress.com/2015/05/07/anthony-curzon-p11-guru/

There was a useful article by the Hycam group, which currently seems to be non-findable

Re: Norton big twin engine numbers. [Re: Samsmc1] #758943
12/11/18 6:38 pm
12/11/18 6:38 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 26
Houston, Texas
S
Samsmc1 Offline OP
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Houston, Texas
The reason we're beating this up centers on the theory that the selling dealer could tag a new P11 as either a Matchless or Norton, which I can't see happened.
Rohan - you stated that you imported a used bike / that is an entirely different story. As yet, no one in this discussion can tell us what documents are presented to the licensing authorities in the UK or anywhere else except the US to register a NEW motorcycle.
Before we got sidetracked, my original question concerned "How can I verify where my P11 was in the sequence of P11's produced or better yet, where can I find documentation and not speculation". If I understand correctly, the NOC can only tell me what year this P11 is and probably who the selling dealer and original owners are.
Am I incorrect as to what the NOC can provide? Before I re title this bike here in Texas, I need to know how it was originally titled - Norton or Matchless?
Thanks
Sam

Re: Norton big twin engine numbers. [Re: Samsmc1] #758968
12/11/18 9:46 pm
12/11/18 9:46 pm
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Posts: 2,361
Oztralia
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Oztralia
There are several accounts of folks using one set or other of the badges that came in the crate with the bike, in the USA,
so maybe you need to find those folks and ask them how they did it !?

I understand the import approval number for the bike I imported is exactly the same process that the dealers use for new bikes.

Several ex-dealer folks here tell up of rocking up with a new bike under them to the motor registry and getting plates for it.
I'll quiz them next time if I see them, but it sounded like they had no paperwork, just the Dealers plate on the bike and the customers details.
When did the USA start that titles malarky ? My Indian was only titled in the 1950s, decades after it was made...

If you can't find how your bike was titled - and that would be a USA thing, nothing the NOC could know about - why does it matter ?
They didn't call it 'badge engineering' for nothing....


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