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Clutch slip #755464
11/08/18 10:13 pm
11/08/18 10:13 pm
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 629
NJ USA
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Mori55 Offline OP
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I replaced my clutch plates and friction disc with MAP no slip disc and bought their alloy pressure plate. Using atf in the primary. The bike is a 67 tr6c.
I adjusted the spring screws flush , then adjusted with a pointer to get it true.
Adjusted clutch rod ran the screw in and backed off a quarter turn.
Clutch slips.
Took it apart turned the spring screws in a half a turn
Readjusted the clutch now backing off a half turn on the clutch rod adjustment. Still slips.
Ready to ditch the alloy pressure plate, old clutch never slipped. Should of left well enough alone.
And I did loosen the clutch cable so I had all slack.

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Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755465
11/08/18 10:17 pm
11/08/18 10:17 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,634
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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scotland
Put the old friction plates back in.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755470
11/08/18 11:06 pm
11/08/18 11:06 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,236
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Online content

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Posts: 10,236
Boston, Massachusetts
IMHO It's not the plates. They will hold 50-60 hp with stock springs, more if using PM springs. I never run the springs out past the bottom of the screw driver blade slot. The material is made by Alto, who make high performance Harley plates.
Take them out, wash them off with alcohol and use a 20/50 motor oil rated SG with a JASO rating of MA2

Last edited by John Healy; 11/08/18 11:15 pm.

Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755472
11/08/18 11:15 pm
11/08/18 11:15 pm
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 629
NJ USA
M
Mori55 Offline OP
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NJ USA
I’m sure it’s not the plates they are brand new. After spending this money I done want put the old plates in.
I’ve been running atf in it before and didn’t have problems. Could it be the billet pressure plate ?

Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755479
11/09/18 12:50 am
11/09/18 12:50 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,503
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

DOPE
kevin roberts  Online Content

DOPE

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ohio, usa
try the oil first.


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: Clutch slip [Re: John Healy] #755485
11/09/18 1:58 am
11/09/18 1:58 am
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 629
NJ USA
M
Mori55 Offline OP
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Mori55  Offline OP
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NJ USA
Originally Posted by John Healy
IMHO It's not the plates. They will hold 50-60 hp with stock springs, more if using PM springs. I never run the springs out past the bottom of the screw driver blade slot. The material is made by Alto, who make high performance Harley plates.
Take them out, wash them off with alcohol and use a 20/50 motor oil rated SG with a JASO rating of MA2

I do have red line primary oil that I use in me Harley , would this work ?
If not what brand oil ? I don’t see anything sg rated.

Last edited by Mori55; 11/09/18 2:01 am.
Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755489
11/09/18 2:27 am
11/09/18 2:27 am
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 7,520
Back on the mainland!
JubeePrince Offline

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Back on the mainland!
Originally Posted by Mori55

If not what brand oil ? I don’t see anything sg rated.



4-stroke, wet-clutch motorcycle motor oil.

I have been using this for a number of years now. No slip. https://www.amazon.com/Valvoline-20...keywords=valvoline+20w-50+motorcycle+oil

https://www.valvoline.com/en-ecuador/our-products/motor-oil/valvoline-4-stroke-motorcycle-oil

Meets or exceeds JASO MA2, API SF/SG/SJ

Cheers,

Steve

Last edited by JubeePrince; 11/09/18 2:28 am.

'77 T140J
"Vintage Bike". What's in your garage?

"The paying customer is always right."

Fitting round pegs into square holes since 1961...
Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755492
11/09/18 3:10 am
11/09/18 3:10 am
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Posts: 629
NJ USA
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Mori55 Offline OP
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But I still don’t understand why it slips. I had called MAP and the recommended atf.
I’ll try the oil but really not sure if that’s it.

Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755493
11/09/18 3:14 am
11/09/18 3:14 am
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reverb Offline
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...I have MAP plates, all other stock in this 79 clutch., no drag and no harsh for sure.
I dismantled the clutch three times these past months due to change oil seals behind, triplex chain adjusters etc; every time I had the plates dry and that is what you need, the oil is for the chain mainly.
Possible you have too much oil; you do not need too much.
If you have the springs within the manual specs try to adjust them a bit more; I did that the last time because the clutch did me an impression of slipping at some higher rpm s

I think that you need to let between half and one full turn the rod adjuster. then 1/8 play on the handlebar.
I use German Liquimoly SG API JASO MA2. Cheap and good. A friend with a 93 Yamaha 1200 changed for this one and the clutch changed; he was using an automotive one previously.

Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755497
11/09/18 3:52 am
11/09/18 3:52 am
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NJ USA
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Mori55 Offline OP
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I have the right amount of oil measured then pulled the bolt to make sure I didn’t have to much.
After the first time I put it together and it slipped I took it apart and readjusted the springs.
The springs are new heavy duty. When I take it apart I’m taking out the billet pressure plate and putting the stock one back in.

Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755504
11/09/18 4:37 am
11/09/18 4:37 am
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,236
Boston, Massachusetts
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John Healy Online content

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Posts: 10,236
Boston, Massachusetts
I have seen a couple of alloy pressure plates where the bolt circles do not match the hub. When this happens the tin cup that hold the springs drag in the holes in the central hub. This can lead to the clutch slipping. If the heavy duty springs you are using are Barnett, they are not "heavy duty" , but the standard spring pressure for the 650 clutch (57-1830). If you want to use Heavy Duty springs in your 650 use 750 twin springs (57-4644). These will hold all the HP you will find with a 650. If you are getting up in the 70 plus rage you might try HD springs made by Kibblewhite.


Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755544
11/09/18 3:24 pm
11/09/18 3:24 pm
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Posts: 629
NJ USA
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Mori55 Offline OP
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I had just thought I’d replace my springs , so that’s why I bought those springs. Not worried about horse power and all that.

Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755567
11/09/18 8:18 pm
11/09/18 8:18 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 439
Kent, UK
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Nick_Smith Offline
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Kent, UK
As other have said, try SG-rated oil. In the UK, Silkolene Super4 comes in a 10w40 grade, which I use.
I ended up changing my friction plates after an ATF experiment - slip and drag.

Otherwise, I found that the stated primary capacity (350cc) is far more than the level plug drilling gives you.
Last time I filled mine, I did it incrementally, and oil came out of the level plug between 225 and 250ml.

Otherwise, can we assume correct pressure plate and cable/lever adjustment?

Nick


"1967 TR6R"
Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755571
11/09/18 9:44 pm
11/09/18 9:44 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,091
Maui Hawaii
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Maui Hawaii
Funny, my friend bear stopped by after getting his bike back on the road. He had the who primary off to fix some stripped threads. He complained that his clutch was slipping. I asked him if he adjusted his clutch.
"I have to do that?"
"Yeah, you have to do that!"

I popped off the plug and adjusted the push rod. I haven't heard back from him, yet.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Clutch slip [Re: Nick_Smith] #755593
11/10/18 1:06 am
11/10/18 1:06 am
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 629
NJ USA
M
Mori55 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Nick_Smith
As other have said, try SG-rated oil. In the UK, Silkolene Super4 comes in a 10w40 grade, which I use.
I ended up changing my friction plates after an ATF experiment - slip and drag.

Otherwise, I found that the stated primary capacity (350cc) is far more than the level plug drilling gives you.
Last time I filled mine, I did it incrementally, and oil came out of the level plug between 225 and 250ml.

Otherwise, can we assume correct pressure plate and cable/lever adjustment?

Nick

Pressure plate and lever adjusted correctly. I’ve done this before with the old clutch.

Re: Clutch slip [Re: HawaiianTiger] #755596
11/10/18 1:11 am
11/10/18 1:11 am
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 629
NJ USA
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Mori55 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
Funny, my friend bear stopped by after getting his bike back on the road. He had the who primary off to fix some stripped threads. He complained that his clutch was slipping. I asked him if he adjusted his clutch.
"I have to do that?"
"Yeah, you have to do that!"

I popped off the plug and adjusted the push rod. I haven't heard back from him, yet.

Cheers,
Bill

I e adjusted the push rod a couple of times.

Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755599
11/10/18 1:16 am
11/10/18 1:16 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,503
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

DOPE
kevin roberts  Online Content

DOPE

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Posts: 4,503
ohio, usa
i went through the shelves at my local advance auto, and they sell several SG 20-50 oils labelled for wet clutches.

expensive, but they're there.


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755603
11/10/18 1:28 am
11/10/18 1:28 am
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,863
Bishop, Calif.
D
desco Offline
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Posts: 2,863
Bishop, Calif.
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Valvolin...tional-20W-50-Motor-Oil-1-Quart/16879750

Used to be 3.90. Buy enough of it and they will deliver it to your door for free. Been using it in both bikes for years. No problems.


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755617
11/10/18 4:54 am
11/10/18 4:54 am
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 537
Pleasant Hill, California USA
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TR7RVMan Offline
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Pleasant Hill, California USA
Hi Morri, I have experimented with a few different oils on the '69 Bonnie. I have not seen ATF cause slip. I've never heard of ATF causing slipping. I do not think ATF is the problem. If using motor oil, I only use oil that says on container for wet clutch motors. None have slipped. Many car oils will absolutely cause slip.

I've soaked every new plate I've installed with the oil I will use in primary. Never had a problem. Every clutch I've taken out will have oil on plates so it doesn't matter dry or wet assembly. Hyde recommends to oil soak plates before installing.

I've never used an alloy pressure plate. The real advantage is they may let more oil into clutch with the open construction?? Most have a smaller pressure circle than the stock steel pressure plate so the wider foot print is in the inner circle if the friction material which doesn't seem to be what we'd want. But I have not personally installed or evaluated one.


I have used JRC 650 springs several times to good results. They have the same pressure as 650 springs. 750 springs are way stronger & result in much greater lever effort & are hard on clutch cables, making the ends tend to pull off.

How are the grooves in the basket & hub? If notched, that for sure can cause slipping if plates hang up. I've seen that several times.

Exactly what is the stack height of the new clutch plates, steel & friction together? Measured with micrometer or Vernier caliper.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755622
11/10/18 6:28 am
11/10/18 6:28 am
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 712
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
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Isle of Wight, UK
I've never gone for the stock settings myself. While looking at even-ness of plate lift, I tighten the springs gradually until the clutch starts to turn the engine. I then tighten evenly ~3 more turns. Then a re-balance to level the plate if necessary.
Mine is a 4-spring, using a Devimead alloy plate. I don't know about yours, but mine is a different height to a std plate, so you have to get used to how springs work in it.
If you have the radial bearing, it will help a lot!

Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755634
11/10/18 12:52 pm
11/10/18 12:52 pm
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Posts: 883
QLD, Australia
R
RetroRod Offline
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QLD, Australia
Morri, I have not seen your reason for swapping out the old clutch?

If it was slipping also, then you might need to consider if the hub might be slipping on the chamfer. Just saying.... RR


'72 Bonneville
"He who praises you for what you lack wishes to take from you what you have." - Don Juan Manuel
Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755637
11/10/18 1:52 pm
11/10/18 1:52 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,107
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
In a perfect world a Triumph would have 6- 8 springs or a diaphragm spring...Three springs close to the center isn't a good design...but it does ok..Unlike most, my land speed racer Triumph uses a stock primary set up...6 Taiwanese inexpensive cork plates (recommended by John Healey), 750 springs cranked down just short of coil bind and ATF..It does not slip with 55 RWHP, about 60-62 at the flywheel..Hand effort is high but smooth with replica AMAL alloy levers...In my opinion,the stock steel levers are an issue in themselves...On my 79 750, I swapped the master cylinder for a smaller diameter Brembo knockoff along with the clutch lever and perch.Stock clutch with 750 springs .The clutch pull is easier and smoother despite the distance between cable and fulcrum is more than the stock levers...


I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions
Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755660
11/10/18 5:45 pm
11/10/18 5:45 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,225
South cone
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reverb Offline
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South cone
...if you put the right oil and a small quantity, the clutch elements are in good condition the only things that let you slip are the springs not too tight and/or the clutch nut loose.
The lifting of the pressure plate would not be too much, if you have too much distance there is a symptom of springs not enough tight.
As you said that you do not mind about HP or rpm s seems that you use the bike at not so much speed, normally the clutch never slip within that range of rpm s
Again, as mentioned, I had an impression of slipping at 120km/h or more so I screwed in the springs.

Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755673
11/10/18 7:01 pm
11/10/18 7:01 pm
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 629
NJ USA
M
Mori55 Offline OP
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When I pull the primary cover I’ll check the clutch nut. That’s the only thing I can think of as I’ve done everything else twice.
But I do remember torquing to 50lb.

Last edited by Mori55; 11/10/18 7:39 pm.
Re: Clutch slip [Re: Mori55] #755687
11/10/18 9:51 pm
11/10/18 9:51 pm
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 537
Pleasant Hill, California USA
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TR7RVMan Offline
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Pleasant Hill, California USA
Hi Morri, Hmmm clutch slipping on main shaft. The key would have to be sheared also. I know it was torqued so doubt if it's a problem, but worth a look. I would remove nut & have a look at key way & feel if it's loose with nut off. With nut off it should be very tight on taper.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
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