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Cryogenic hardening? #755052
11/04/18 7:56 pm
11/04/18 7:56 pm
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 107
Oklahoma
T
Tracey Spear Offline OP
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Oklahoma
The other day I called a local shop who claimed to know vintage bikes. While discussing bore job and pistons he recommended hard anodizing and cryogenic freezing of rods and pistons. He said he has it done to his race motors and also recommended for street motors. Researching on the web I found vendors that claim it also improves heat transfer in cylinders and head resulting in cooler running engines.

For those more learned than I, does any of that make sense? Especially for a old A65?

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Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #755134
11/05/18 11:53 am
11/05/18 11:53 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,557
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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West Yorkshire
for all my 2c are worth but I never fit old rods (least not to my bikes) a good pair of rods from the likes of Thunder engineering for alloy or MAP rods for steel will do you better service than playing voodoo with your old rods and give better insurance. I nearly said if you want to spend more money get some decent pistons from Ed V, however I priced up some B44 pistons for my Big cc A65 project, and the Ed V JE pistons were not much difference in price than the GPM ones and whilst GPM make good pistons, they make dreadful rings. I have the JE's for my racer project and in my road bike, they've done over 8000 miles in that engine, and continues to go well.


beerchug
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: NickL] #755196
11/05/18 10:40 pm
11/05/18 10:40 pm
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 107
Oklahoma
T
Tracey Spear Offline OP
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Oklahoma
Originally Posted by NickL
GPM rings are not that bad, i have used them plenty of times over the years.

If you want to run around at 7500 rpm all the time, it's cheaper (and more comfortable) to buy a japper.


Blasphemy!!!

Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #755205
11/05/18 11:47 pm
11/05/18 11:47 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,521
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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argyll. scotland, uk
I have no experience of this, did some googling, hmmm, thought this was interesting.

Clipped off one of the many sites offering this service, most of it looked like snake oil, read one paper on a thorough test on steel conrods, it showed some definite improvements, might be worth an hour or so of further study.

"When scientists at The Jet Propulsion Laboratory and the Johnson Manned Spacecraft Center first began examining hardware and material brought back from long stints in space, they made a startling discovery. Material that was subjected to the extreme low temperatures of space were stronger than when originally manufactured! This led to an in depth research program resulting in new standard procedures. Today, cryogenic treatment is standard practice for all materials and hardware destined for the heavens above us."

If this is true, and its not stupid expensive , then why not.?
It appears the process is a slow soak to -300 C rather than a quick dip, takes about 24 hours and then a day settling.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #755210
11/06/18 1:25 am
11/06/18 1:25 am
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,035
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
Having read through some of the posts found on Google relating to cryogenic hardening, the process does sound plausible.

However whats not clear is any beneficial effect on used alloy conrods potentially 50 years old.

I don't know much about failure modes on alloy but I believe micro cracks can build up over the years which can cause problems. Also elongation and ovaling of the big end hole can happen which could make the rod scrap. I would get the rods checked for cracks and check all dimensions are correct before proceeding.

Also given all the talk of stress relief in the metal, I would also be interested to know whether a used rod subjected to cryogenic hardening would come out of the process with the same dimensions as before.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #755305
11/07/18 10:43 am
11/07/18 10:43 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,557
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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West Yorkshire
Just because something is harder doesn't mean that it is less brittle, often hard compounds are more brittle as they are less ductile.


beerchug
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: gunner] #755330
11/07/18 4:54 pm
11/07/18 4:54 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,360
Bolton Lancs UK
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Andy Higham Offline
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Bolton Lancs UK
Originally Posted by gunner
Having read through some of the posts found on Google relating to cryogenic hardening, the process does sound plausible.

However whats not clear is any beneficial effect on used alloy conrods potentially 50 years old.

I don't know much about failure modes on alloy but I believe micro cracks can build up over the years which can cause problems. Also elongation and ovaling of the big end hole can happen which could make the rod scrap. I would get the rods checked for cracks and check all dimensions are correct before proceeding.

Also given all the talk of stress relief in the metal, I would also be interested to know whether a used rod subjected to cryogenic hardening would come out of the process with the same dimensions as before.


There is only one sensible treatment for 50 year old rods, REPLACEMENT


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
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Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #755335
11/07/18 5:16 pm
11/07/18 5:16 pm
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 51
CALIFORNIA
S
slow learner Offline
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CALIFORNIA
I had an A65 rod let go while riding down the freeway at a sedate pace. It did not seize on the journal and the timing side bush was still good: the rod just broke. The motor kept running on the other cylinder sectioning the cases and even bending the frame. If I had a A65 still I think I would replace the rods.


Laurence Luce
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: slow learner] #755380
11/08/18 2:47 am
11/08/18 2:47 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,557
West Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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West Yorkshire
Originally Posted by slow learner
I had an A65 rod let go while riding down the freeway at a sedate pace. It did not seize on the journal and the timing side bush was still good: the rod just broke. The motor kept running on the other cylinder sectioning the cases and even bending the frame. If I had a A65 still I think I would replace the rods.


Precisely. When I accidentally ran my motor dry of oil, it destroyed/ melted the shell, got so hot that the ARP. Bolts turned blue/rainbow and made a real bad run job on the cheeks of the big end of the rod, as the shell squashed itself between th rod and cheek of the crank. The crank was fine with a polish up (I nitrided it after that) fit another new rod for insurance but at no point did the rod break. Just locked itself to th crank.

These motors don’t like to be logged in a high gear though, the dynamic compression is massive and because of slow air flow for the throttle position needed to hold it at speed, the vacuum drawing fuel from the jet will also be lessened (usually will get pinging) and that’s the biggest cause of them going bang.... but in my case I’m certain that an original rod would have gone the same way as “slow learners” bike did.


beerchug
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #755469
11/08/18 10:52 pm
11/08/18 10:52 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 197
Kristiansund. Norway
A
Arnstein Offline
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Kristiansund. Norway
The main reason for a connection rod to fail is usually metal fatigue and in a four stroke motor it will break almost every time in the exhaust stroke..when it is stressed the most.. same reason the big end is getting oval.
If a cylinder accidentally gets filled with petrol and an hydraulic lock develop when trying to start, one rod gets bent but rarely breaks. Happens to Honda cbx sixes sometimes.


Arnstein

BSA Spitfire MK3.800cc (also engine 850cc 90degree)
Honda CB450T -71
Laverda RGS 1130cc -85
Ducati 1098 -08
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #755480
11/09/18 12:53 am
11/09/18 12:53 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,521
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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argyll. scotland, uk
At -300 you are much further from ambient than + 150 -200 or so typical tempering annealling temperatures.
I wouldnt be surprised if theres something in it, if it stopped the crank getting ovalled by the ds main that would be good. My conrods are 1970 vintage, stop making me feel bad about it. They are Y alloy Hiduminium, forged and shot peened. Its pretty cold here most nights , maybe that keeps them fresh?

Last edited by gavin eisler; 11/09/18 12:58 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #755517
11/09/18 11:18 am
11/09/18 11:18 am
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,360
Bolton Lancs UK
A
Andy Higham Offline
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Posts: 1,360
Bolton Lancs UK
Gavin, you cannot give the rods a soak at -300C.
Absolute zero is -273C, the common cryogenic medium is liquid nitrogen which has a boiling point of -196C. Liquid helium as used in superconducting MRI scanners has a boiling point of -270C but is very expensive


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #755518
11/09/18 11:23 am
11/09/18 11:23 am
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,360
Bolton Lancs UK
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Andy Higham Offline
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Bolton Lancs UK
Alternatively components can be treated by leaving them on my bench at work in winter without the heating on


BSA B31 500 "Stargazer"
Greeves 200 "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500 sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500 "Llareggub"
Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 & '36 OK Supreme
Kawasaki ZZR1400 "Kuro no senshi"
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #755520
11/09/18 11:36 am
11/09/18 11:36 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,521
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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gavin eisler  Offline
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Posts: 4,521
argyll. scotland, uk
presumably the -300 was in F, getting my units mixed , sorry.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #755527
11/09/18 1:49 pm
11/09/18 1:49 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,412
Finger Lakes
Hillbilly bike Offline
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Finger Lakes
Aluminum and steel have different properties ........I have the stock crankshafts in my Triumph racers nitrated...the exterior becomes more wear and fatigue resistant...It's commonly done on high performance auto cranks.Often along with shot peening....Drag racers have transmission gears treated by a cryogenic process..


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ,2001 Sportster....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #755530
11/09/18 2:08 pm
11/09/18 2:08 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 771
Ewing. NJ
E
edunham Offline
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Ewing. NJ
I just have my wife look at a piece after I tell her that I bought another bike. Much colder than -300 degrees!

Ed from NJ

Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #755607
11/10/18 2:24 am
11/10/18 2:24 am
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 561
.
Les P Offline

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Les P  Offline

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Originally Posted by Tracey Spear


For those more learned than I, does any of that make sense? Especially for a old A65?


I would be more curious to know if folk chamfer the oil feed holes on the crankshaft especially after being ground under size..


More bikes and projects than you can shake a stick at but they should be done in two shakes of a lamb's tail.
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: NickL] #756728
11/21/18 12:04 pm
11/21/18 12:04 pm
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 156
bac o burk qld
dommie90 Offline
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bac o burk qld
is the marmalade home made or store bought ? we must know

Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #756741
11/21/18 1:46 pm
11/21/18 1:46 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,521
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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argyll. scotland, uk
only works with home made, using seville oranges finely cut.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: NickL] #756785
11/21/18 11:03 pm
11/21/18 11:03 pm
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,815
OZ
Triless Offline
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OZ
Good grief.................!!

Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: NickL] #756790
11/21/18 11:57 pm
11/21/18 11:57 pm
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,815
OZ
Triless Offline
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Not at all, Nick, I'm just totally astounded by the things one learns on Britbike !
Did Capt. B. Lastem get his " decorations" through getting into a bit of a jam in his marmo tank?

Last edited by Triless; 11/22/18 12:08 am.
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Tracey Spear] #756802
11/22/18 3:19 am
11/22/18 3:19 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,032
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Online content
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Sydney Australia
As for cryo treatment.
Just remember whatever cold does heat & time will undo.
The FACTS can be found on the TIME-TEMPERATURE-TRANSFORMATION diagrams for THE EXACT SAME ALLOYS
ALL HEAT TREATMENTS ARE REVERSIBLE

Yes I am screaming

And tiny variations in impurities, let alone major alloying elements can equate to drastically different outcomes.
The metals used in space craft are generally double vacuum melted ( if not triple or quadruple ) as is much of the general avaition metals.
BTW BSA made furnaces for vacuum melting steels.
Vacuum melted metals have extreamly low levels of dissolves gasses and in particular atomic ( not molecular ) Hydrogen and thus behave in a totally different mannar to the metals plebs like you & I get our hands on.
Also most of the structural metals in space craft are titanium alloys and what apples to tiatanium does not necessarily translate to the same effect in steel or aluminium.
We all know the stories of the tiatanium framed B44's

Cracks in steels & some aluminium alloys actually happen because the stresses force the dissolved hydrogen atoms into spaces in the lattice that are low energy.
The discreet hydrogen atomes then bump into each other and form H2 molecules which force the layers of the metals atoms apart.
This is what we eventually see as cracks and cracks contine to grow till the cross secdtion of the metal is too small to sustain the load applied when the rods exit the engines with vengeance .

Diffusion of atoms within a lattice is temperature dependent. we all know this because we all anneal our copper head gaskets.
Now super cooling the metal will lock the lattice thus preventing the dissolved atoms travelling through the lattice and there is a residual effect of this when the metal returns to room temperature.
In a race engine this can be an advantage, particularly in top end racing where an engine will only be required to do a single race then get stripped down & rebuilt.
Now does this translate to one of our old bangers that we all hope will do 50,000miles or better between bottom end rebuilds, highly unlikely.
If I was building engine for street draggers then cyro would be good insurance because by the time the effect had reverted the engine would be well out of warranty and as it did not blow up the first time you dropped the clutch at 11,000rpm then it is not my fault if it dose it 3 months latter at 9,000 rpm.

There is no substitute for nice new rods.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Cryogenic hardening? [Re: Hillbilly bike] #756803
11/22/18 3:28 am
11/22/18 3:28 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,032
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Online content
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Aluminum and steel have different properties ........I have the stock crankshafts in my Triumph racers nitrated...the exterior becomes more wear and fatigue resistant...It's commonly done on high performance auto cranks.Often along with shot peening....Drag racers have transmission gears treated by a cryogenic process..


Nitriding or carbo nitriding is totally different to plain cyro treatment.
In your case you have changed the chemistry of the steel by adding N ( & C in some processes ) which has a physical effect on the crystal structure which is almost impossible to reverse.
In cryo you are not changing the chemistry. just trying to alter the physical state or in some cases the phases present.
Because of this the effects of cryo are easily reversible.


Bike Beesa
Trevor

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