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Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #754626 10/31/18 3:01 am
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Mark Z Offline
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I just went through this recently on my A65. I had a BS/W socket that fit, but all of my BS/W sockets are 12-point, and that bolt head is so shallow that if it's really tight, a 12-point socket won't do the job. It turns out that 13/16" is a good fit, so I bought a six-point 13/16" socket and that did the trick.

My drain plug was in there really tight and with no washer. I don't know if there's supposed to be a washer there, but I put one in, fiber if I remember right. The plug only has to be tight enough to not leak.



Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
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Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #754799 11/01/18 11:04 pm
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70BSABobby Offline OP
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Appreciate the help! It actually ended up being a 15/16 but it did the trick. Now I’m about to pull the inner timing cover off, I printed a pattern and glued it on some cardboard so I could place the screws in as I take them off for easier assembly. What all can stay on this plate when I remove it? This bike has a Boyer ignition, do I need to remove the stator plate from the cover or can cut the leads up by the battery and crimp those again when I reassemble? I know I’ll have to retime the ignition but anything I can do to keep the timing intact as much as possible would help. Please keep in my mind I am a COMPLETE beginner and frankly don’t know what I’m doing but I’m willing to learn. Just want to avoid any mistakes that other people have run into in the past. So far I’ve gathered I’ll do these steps

1. Take appropriate screws out
2. Remove stator plate (if need be)
3. Remove shifter spring
4. Remove kickstart return spring
5. Tap seal with rubber mallet and carefully remove trying to avoid cam gears from falling out.

Bike is a 1970 A65T.


1970 BSA A65T

2017 Triumph Bonneville T120 Black

2006 Yamaha YZF-R1 Raven Edition
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #754804 11/02/18 12:24 am
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1. Take appropriate screws out .

Yes. If some one has fitted a rev counter remove the drive spindle as well. make sure you get the sneaky two on the under belly.



2. Remove stator plate (if need be)

Yes

and then remove the advance retard mech. look in the manual. it pushes off with a 5/16 bolt look up the thread for the year , could be UNF for a 70. DONT hit it sideways to break the taper

3. Remove shifter spring

leave that alone if you can
these things are weird, if it changed OK before dont mess.

4. Remove kickstart return spring

leave it alone if it isnt broken. The top rat trap part must be removed , watch yer fingers and keep the washer safe, the spring can stay fixed.

5. Tap seal with rubber mallet and carefully remove trying to avoid cam gears from falling out.

If you have removed the advance retard mech you can knock the idler pinion or have a helper lean on it while the case is knocked off , thus preserving the timing. Use a bit of soft wood 2x2 fore and aft on the case , teardrop tail and tach drive boss.

The unmentioned
6.

There is a tiny grub screw that locates the "Grannies tooth " for the gear selector, that must be released and the tooth removed.



71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #754806 11/02/18 1:03 am
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70BSABobby Offline OP
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Excellent, thanks so much, this helps a TON. It’s getting late here so will probably dive in this weekend when I have an extra hand to preserve the cam timing. I’m slowly learning but I’m having fun!


1970 BSA A65T

2017 Triumph Bonneville T120 Black

2006 Yamaha YZF-R1 Raven Edition
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #754813 11/02/18 2:11 am
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Question, it looks like there is a block off plate where the revolution counter mechanism would go in. I assume it’s because it wasn’t equipped with one originally but I actually do have a tach and would like to add it, is this possible? How would I remove this block off plate? It looks like the bolts are soldered or they have pieces of metal to prevent the bolt from backing out.

Thanks!


1970 BSA A65T

2017 Triumph Bonneville T120 Black

2006 Yamaha YZF-R1 Raven Edition
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #754834 11/02/18 9:39 am
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The screws may have a lock tab under them. Just carefully bend down the tabs and the screws will be free.

Last edited by Rich B; 11/02/18 9:40 am.

Never underestimate the human ability to elevate stupid to a whole new level!.
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #754913 11/03/18 2:58 am
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You don't need to remove the kickstart return spring. The kickstart quadrant gear with spring and retaining plate come off with and stay intact on the inner timing cover. I like to put a hose clamp on the kickstart lever shaft to keep the spring retaining plate from being inadvertently knocked loose while the cover is off.

Tbolts did not have tachometers, just speedometers. A tacho drive could be fitted, as long as the oil pump shaft is intact. The oil pump shaft is slotted on the end, and the "ears" at the end of the shaft are prone to breaking off, usually from a seized tach drive, cable, or gauge. But if that pump has never driven a tachometer, then it should be ok. You would also need the gauge bracket that holds two gauges. In general, I wouldn't recommend it. Mechanical instruments are expensive and prone to mechanical failures. There are good electronic instruments on the market these days. Smith's makes electronic gauges that are replicas of the original mechanical gauges.

It's easier to pull the ignition magnet rotor if you get the stator plate out of the way, but you can leave the stator plate and leads with the inner timing cover, just disconnect the leads at the other end.



Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #755084 11/05/18 12:53 am
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Thanks guys, I’ll probably just use a speedo and sell the tach/dual gauge mount later on.

Mark do you know if I don’t remove the stator plate do I need to remove the screw underneath it? It appears to have an Allen head. Also, will I be able to have someone lean on the idler pinion to preserve the cam timing if I keep the stator plate on like Gavin suggested? This bike has a Boyer EI.

Thanks again everyone, I’m sure I’ll have a million more questions, this is all new but I’m having a blast learning.


1970 BSA A65T

2017 Triumph Bonneville T120 Black

2006 Yamaha YZF-R1 Raven Edition
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #755091 11/05/18 1:48 am
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You must remove (or at least pull loose) the magnet rotor to get the inner timing cover off. I believe the Allen head screw you're talking about is the screw that holds the magnet rotor to the idler pinion. You must remove that screw, and then find a bigger screw that threads into the end of the magnet rotor. Then pull on that screw and the magnet rotor will pop free from its taper on the idler pinion. The "bigger screw" will be 5/16" diameter; I'm not sure of the thread density. If you can find a long enough screw, you can clamp a vise grip loosely around it under the head, and use the vise grip as a makeshift slide hammer. It usually doesn't take much to pop it free.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #755726 11/11/18 4:09 am
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Good evening! So the mystery has been solved! Sheared kickstart ratchet pinion. Looks like it finally gave out after 48 years of abuse, have the parts on order right now.

I did have a question about the cam timing, I successfully removed the inner case without any of the gears falling out. After talking to a friend and reviewing the manual, it looks like they are not lined up correctly? The bike had quite a bit of work done to it before I bought it and apparently was running great according to the mechanic I talked to and the paperwork I have so I'd be surprised if this was off but obviously want to make sure before I put everything back together, thoughts?

Also, any other tips on replacing this part or anything else I should do while its open I'd appreciate.

Thanks guys! I feel so much better knowing exactly what it was now.





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1970 BSA A65T

2017 Triumph Bonneville T120 Black

2006 Yamaha YZF-R1 Raven Edition
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #755732 11/11/18 7:00 am
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If you turn the engine until the crank and the idler pinion marks line up, then turn it again until the idler pinion and cam pinion marks line up then they should in turn align. They won’t ALL meet their marks at the same time but rotating enough so that that the teeth have meshed a couple should show what your looking for.

However 3 beers in and counting the teeth engagements, I’d say that the can timing looks fine, with standard setup you can move the can a tooth either way without anything connecting, but from what I can see all looks good.... doesn’t mean the cam is any good though, just that’ll the teeth are aligned correctly


beerchug
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #755733 11/11/18 7:03 am
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To add, if you put the slotted part in the crank In the 12 o’clock position, then the idler pinion and cam pinion dots should instantly align. If you have to move the crank so the slotted part is in anything but the 12 o clock position then you have the wrong cam idler pinion.... been there and it puts the cam 20 degrees advanced..... and yes it will still run!


beerchug
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: DMadigan] #755791 11/11/18 9:49 pm
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"Starting with the bike on the centre or side stand is for people with no balance or too short to stand astride the bike and lift your leg high enough to bring the lever to the top."

Or if your left-footed!


1971 BSA A65 Lightning "Bitsa"
1966 BSA A65 "Beezuki" with GT550 two-stroke engine
1974 Triumph T150 830cc
1975 Suzuki GT550
1975 Laverda 1000 3C
1986 Yamaha SRX 600 X 2
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #755816 11/12/18 3:19 am
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Mark Z Offline
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Cam timing: I've always done it as shown in my Chilton service manual, where, when the marks on the crank and idler pinion line up, the mark on the cam pinion is about three teeth away from the opposite mark on the idler pinion.

I understand (now) that turning the cam pinion 180 degrees (as it appears in the above picture) makes no difference, but method 1 seems more straightforward, and doesn't require a complete turn of the crank to insure that the cam & idler pinion marks line up.


Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #756631 11/20/18 4:32 am
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HI Bobby,
I came home late September from a trip to the Colorado mountains with a low mileage but very dusty '68 BSA Royal Star, barn find.. I found a shop in Ashley, Ohio, not far from you that got the bike on new tires, de-varnished the fuel system, cleaned it up and blessed it as road-worthy. John and Dain Schumacher have guided me through my many questions regarding the foibles of old Brit Bikes. I've had great service at what I consider fair prices.
Ashley is a quaint Ohio village and Mobile Cycle Works has a storefront and unexpected classy polished wood floor, brick walls, nice lighting and a display area with a vintage Yamaha TZ road racer, a Triumph Bonneville, a 1930s restored Velocette, and my Royal Star among other neat old bikes.
I suspect John and Dain could help you with your Brit Bike issues.
Oh, and there is a Pub across the street.
Inspector Bob

Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #759483 12/16/18 6:22 pm
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70BSABobby Offline OP
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Thanks Bob! That is very close to where I live so I will definitely be reaching out to them if I hit a wall and can't figure it out on my own. I finally got the kickstart gears back in and the original issue seems to be resolved, I also was able to confirm that the cam timing was spot on once I turned the motor. Unfortunately I snapped a stud on the sump trying to replace them as the originals were stripped, having a friend come over later this week to weld a piece to get it out and we were going to set the ignition timing as well. I did have a few questions before that happens.

1. This I'm sure is a dumb question (don't worry I will have many more lol) but when timing the Boyer ignition it states to "set the engine to full advance timing mark on compression". I know how to access the timing mark on the primary side however does someone have a photo or can explain where I need to turn the engine to put the magnetic rotor in/stator plate to set the static timing?

2. This I'm sure will get many responses but what oil/gear oil should I use? I have an autozone/advance auto parts by my house so hoping I can buy what I need there.

3. The sump is empty as I will be replacing the old one with one with a magnetic drain plug. Do I need to put some oil into the sump for the first start up? If so, how would I go about doing that? This bike has been drained completely and has not ran for about 6 months.

4. Finally, is regular pump gasoline fine to use? I've heard mixed opinions on how I should try and run a non-ethanol mix. I know it will run on pump gas but for longevity is that ok?

Thanks again guys

Last edited by 70BSABobby; 12/16/18 6:23 pm.

1970 BSA A65T

2017 Triumph Bonneville T120 Black

2006 Yamaha YZF-R1 Raven Edition
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #759486 12/16/18 6:50 pm
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gavin eisler Online Content
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Q 1. This I'm sure is a dumb question (don't worry I will have many more lol) but when timing the Boyer ignition it states to "set the engine to full advance timing mark on compression". I know how to access the timing mark on the primary side however does someone have a photo or can explain where I need to turn the engine to put the magnetic rotor in/stator plate to set the static timing?

A , Take the plugs out, take the primary side timing plate off, take the TS "points" cover off, lift the back wheel, engage 2nd gear, use the back wheel to nudge the engine round, put a thumb over a spark plug hole , feel for compression stroke, look at the strobe pointer , nudge wheel so that fixed pointer aligns with rotor slash mark, paint the marks white, check the piston is near the top of the stroke . The engine is now set at the full advance mark. Double check by removing the timing plug , front of crankcase below the front engine mount. Poke a 3/16 allen key end in it should engage with a notch in the crank and lock it, dont leave it in and try to kick over the motor.
Now go to the timing side, the Boyer rotor should be loose on the taper to start with, loose fit the rotor centre screw, fit the pickup plate at the mid range of the slots, paying attention to which small hole ( there are two) in the pick up plate is marked BSA or CCW , mark this with white paint on the outside. Check the strobe point is still aligned, go back to timing side, with a pair of needle nosed pliers turn the loose Boyer rotor until the magnet screw head is directly under your marked hole, carefully nip up the centre bolt to fix the rotor, check again, make sure this as good as you can get it. Your static timing is done. You MUST strobe time to complete the job , generally the static timing comes out a little retarded, there should be enough range in the slotted plate to fine tune this.


2. This I'm sure will get many responses but what oil/gear oil should I use? I have an autozone/advance auto parts by my house so hoping I can buy what I need there.

EP 90 gear oil.

3. The sump is empty as I will be replacing the old one with one with a magnetic drain plug. Do I need to put some oil into the sump for the first start up? If so, how would I go about doing that? This bike has been drained completely and has not ran for about 6 months.

Yes, fill from the rocker cover or the timing plug front crankcase. So long as the oil tank is filled a day or two before start up the feed side should be OK, the return side needs oil in the sump to give the pump something to do.

4. Finally, is regular pump gasoline fine to use? I've heard mixed opinions on how I should try and run a non-ethanol mix. I know it will run on pump gas but for longevity is that ok?

Dunno, Petrol in Scotland seems to be OK.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #759521 12/16/18 11:58 pm
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The octane of the gas you use is more important than whether it has ethanol in it or not. You want to use the highest octane you can find. In the US it's very hard to find high octane ethanol free gas. You can sometimes find ethanol free but its mostly 87 octane. I've been riding these old crates for over fifteen years and I have always used 93 octane premium with nominal 10% ethanol from a known brand with absolutely no issues. I do use ethanol compatible petcocks, fuel line and the stayup floats. Some people do run high octane AVgas but that's a hassle to get. To me it makes sense to upgrade the fuel system components for around a 100$ and have access to gas anywhere I travel.

Last edited by htown; 12/17/18 3:21 am.

1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2018 Kawasaki Z900RS


Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #759529 12/17/18 1:35 am
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Thanks everyone, Gavin how much oil should I pour into the timing plug hole? This is the bolt that’s on the front of the engine right behind the front tire?


1970 BSA A65T

2017 Triumph Bonneville T120 Black

2006 Yamaha YZF-R1 Raven Edition
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #759538 12/17/18 3:37 am
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Aviation fuel does not work well in motorcycles. It is high octane but is made for high altitude so the volatiles are different. A friend tried it ih his race bike it would not start. Put in the track side 95 octane fuel and it ran fine.
There is no need to put oil in the sump. Oil will get there after going through through the bearings. pull the plugs and kick it over until the oil light goes out. Then replace the plugs and start it.
If you want to get rid of the ethanol, put the gas in a jug with methanol or "gas dry", shake it and let it settle out. Then drain off the water.

Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #759539 12/17/18 3:43 am
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Bobby,

I also always put 93 octane in. Have never had an issue. Just listen for knocking on uphill climbs. If so, you may have to adjust your timing just a bit.


1961 BSA Super Rocket
1968 BSA A50
1969 BSA 441 VS
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #759556 12/17/18 8:42 am
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One tea cup full.

" This is the bolt that’s on the front of the engine right behind the front tire?" , correct, on earlier models it is a small plate held on with two screws, later models got a 1/2" UNC plug. I have a small oil can for this job.


if the bike is nearly ready to go, make sure all cycle parts are roadworthy , have your riding gear ready , and ride it within minutes of starting if all is OIK. DO NOT leave it idling for ages and video it, that does no good at all. if new piston rings are fitted there is about a 20 minute run time from start in which to seat these correctly, idling for long periods does nothing towards this.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 12/17/18 8:52 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: DMadigan] #759560 12/17/18 10:57 am
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Allan Gill Online Happy
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Originally Posted by DMadigan

If you want to get rid of the ethanol, put the gas in a jug with methanol or "gas dry", shake it and let it settle out. Then drain off the water.


Problem is how do you replace the octane value which has been lost by removing the ethanol ?

I hear that you can mix upto 10% avgas with fuel before having any detrimental effects although I have never tried it myself.


beerchug
Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #759586 12/17/18 3:13 pm
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The problems that I have had with ethanol mostly stem from all sorts of nasty muck forming in the carbs when the bikes sit for any period of time. Cleaning the carbs all the time gets old. Draining the the carbs is helpful. Draining the tank is helpful for the ethanol issues, but condensation here in the NE often results in rust in the gas tank. Stabil prevents various issues with gas getting old, but I have not had any luck with it preventing ethanol from mucking things up. Here in NJ we do not have any gas stations selling non-ethanol gas. I used to remove the ethanol the same way that Dave Madigan refers to, and would boost the octane back up with octane booster. It was dirty and you end up with gasoline tainted water to dispose of. I tried buying racing gas. Works great, but it was more than $10 a gallon. Started buying aviation gas at about $5 per gallon. Its illegal to use on the road, but it works great and lasts without mucking things up.

Ed from NJ

Re: New guy and off to a rocky start.... [Re: 70BSABobby] #759595 12/17/18 3:35 pm
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Dang! I didn't know how lucky I am. In OK 100% gasoline is in, I'm guessing 30-40% of the local market. Away from the cities it's harder to find, so occasionally I have to settle for 10% ethanol. ALL of my vehicles and equipment run better on 100% gasoline. Especially the '03 Yukon. On 10% ethanol with the cruise on 65 it bogs on hills to the point of a hard downshift as the cruise tries to maintain speed. Annoying as hell. But on 100% it pulls over right over the hills. And it gets much better mileage on 100%. Hopefully, in a few months, I'll get pull up to the pump on a freshly rebuilt BSA.

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