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Another Triumph opened up #751130
10/01/18 7:52 pm
10/01/18 7:52 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,181
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
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Running from demons in WNY
That would be my 79 T140D I bought in June....I have other bikes to ride....This is the engine that would smoke blue out the exhaust after a cold start for a few minutes and also smoke after taking off from a traffic light...I did the hillbilly Bon Ami trick and then ran it hard...It stopped smoking...Since then I ran the bike about 500 miles of sporty riding,,
This was the NYC bike that was used as daily transportation....All bolts came loose normally...except for the exhaust pipe retainers, they were a fight
The engine was pulled as a complete unit

[Linked Image]

I noticed the head has the original smaller head bolt washers in the four inners but no indentation...I removed one intake valve and there are newer aftermarket guides but way too sloppy.. The combustion chamber shows a few spots of heavy carbon from the oil burning...

[Linked Image]

The spark plugs as they are from riding ......

[Linked Image]

The cylinder walls do appear glazed but not worn, no ring wear at the top, zero wear ridge... The pistons don't rock in the bore. It measures 76MM using a caliper. I believe they are Triumph replacement pistons.... I will use a bore gauge later...The bike idled very rich when I got it because of a cold start enrichener problem That I did fix...Probably glazed the cylinder walls.. The engine timed at 38 degrees never pinged on 90 octane non ethanol and the pistons don't show detonation erosion..

[Linked Image]



I'll check the cam timing and then split the cases....



I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions
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Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751184
10/02/18 3:37 am
10/02/18 3:37 am
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,253
South cone
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reverb Offline
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South cone
...does not look too bad Tony. Leaked by the pushrods?

The 5/16 s look positioned the other way around.

With all those rusty hardware some body could think that the engine never have been opened but if the guides are not factory ones...how a NYC bike is so rusted?

Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: reverb] #751195
10/02/18 10:12 am
10/02/18 10:12 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,181
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Running from demons in WNY
The head and cylinders were removed at some time in the past because of the sealer used on the push rod tubes and cylinder base...The bike had no oil leaks...The bike was most often parked outside on the street by the previous owners.... The speedometer shows 14,250 miles but wasn't working when I bought the bike..



I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions
Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751229
10/02/18 3:10 pm
10/02/18 3:10 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,576
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

DOPE
kevin roberts  Online Content

DOPE

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ohio, usa
the piston markings are 180 degrees apart.

are the intake and exhaust cutouts the same size?


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: kevin roberts] #751236
10/02/18 3:31 pm
10/02/18 3:31 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,181
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
the piston markings are 180 degrees apart.

are the intake and exhaust cutouts the same size?

They appear to be the same... I believe they are the original pistons...My bore gauge says the cylinders are less than .001 wear or out of round, actually, .0005-.0008. The piston skirts look good....I think honing and a new set of rings...good to go..The head needs guides and probably do Kibblewhite valves.
I checked the intake cam timing, 5 times because it's goofy....The intake lobe centers are 88 degrees.The timing at .020 lift is like 55 and 57....that's insane advanced and no wonder the engine wouldn't pull beyond 5500 rpm in 4th or 5th gear and had a choppy idle..Setting the intake cam on the gear dot instead of the dash is 101 degrees, much better and where I'll run it...This 79 engine still has the oil feed to the exhaust tappets that supposedly was deleted ??? I just broke my cheapo Charlie Chan pinion gear puller...


I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions
Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751277
10/02/18 8:43 pm
10/02/18 8:43 pm
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 659
San Rafael, Ca.
BikeVice Online content
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BikeVice  Online Content
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San Rafael, Ca.
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike

I checked the intake cam timing, 5 times because it's goofy....The intake lobe centers are 88 degrees.


That's only a few degrees more advanced than the 1973 T140V and TR7 I've measured.


Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike

..This 79 engine still has the oil feed to the exhaust tappets that supposedly was deleted ???


My 1979 T140E still had the exhaust oil feed as well.


Eric


1971 T120RV (R.I.P.)
1973 T140V/TR7
1993 Ducati 900 SS
Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751291
10/02/18 10:31 pm
10/02/18 10:31 pm
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,818
OZ
Triless Online content
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OZ
Tony, "Original Triumph Bonneville", by Gerard Kane , "Triumph Motorcycle Restoration Guide ", by David Gaylin, "The Triumph Trophy Bible " by Harry Woolridge, and "Bonnie" by JR Nelson all say 1981 was the year the exhaust tappet oil feed was deleted. Also, at this time, the tappet guide blocks were now the same, and the tappets, IN and Ex were 3/4 radius .

Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: BikeVice] #751292
10/02/18 10:41 pm
10/02/18 10:41 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,181
Running from demons in WNY
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Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by BikeVice
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike

I checked the intake cam timing, 5 times because it's goofy....The intake lobe centers are 88 degrees.


That's only a few degrees more advanced than the 1973 T140V and TR7 I've measured.



Eric


Yup, you did mention 91 or 92 degrees...I had heard stories of 107 degrees from several sources on this site...


I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions
Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751300
10/02/18 11:41 pm
10/02/18 11:41 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,576
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

DOPE
kevin roberts  Online Content

DOPE

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Posts: 4,576
ohio, usa
kevin thinks 107 degrees for a 650 is just dandy.

but i guess i've changed other stuff too.


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751348
10/03/18 10:55 am
10/03/18 10:55 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,181
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Running from demons in WNY
Kevin, just stop it...LOL

Here's an article from John Healy's Vintage Magazine magazine written by the late respected Pete Russell.....Read down to this section ,
Quote
Standard T140 Camshafts
Average standard timing measurements show Intake cam timing opening of 40° BTDC and closing of 74° ABDC (lobe center 107°), and Exhaust cam timing of opening 50° BBDC and closing of 29° ATDC (lobe center 100.5°). These figures are given at 0.020 inch tappet lift. All early T140 engines had “R” radius (1 1/8 inch) exhaust cam followers while all intake cam followers were standard (3/4 inch) radius.

Do read the whole article.....

Looks like Bike Vice found 92 on early 750's and myself found 88 intake lobe center on a 79 750 and Pete says 107.....??? Perhaps US market bikes were timed different than Australian market bikes?

T140 Cam timing


This is the bike my friend was riding and using the power..he then noticed the oil pressure light was on and rode back home...A gauge showed zero oil pressure..The engine was run for at least several minutes like this...There are the drive side rod bearings showing no damage from the lack of oil pressure......Think about that...

[Linked Image]


I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions
Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751359
10/03/18 12:25 pm
10/03/18 12:25 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,576
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content

DOPE
kevin roberts  Online Content

DOPE

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,576
ohio, usa
ive given up trying to figure out your motorcycle guardian angel.

you build a race bike from a pile of parts and bump the records 15 mph, off the trailer. you ride bikes with no oil pressure and then it comes back by itself. when you take them apart you discover your bikes dont need oil pressure.

i wouldnt be surprised to find that your stuff doesnt even need oil and would run with buffalo piss in the fuel tank.


"Are bikes so nice as all that?" asked the mole, shyly...

"Nice? They're the only thing," said the Water Rat Solemnly, as he leaned forward on the handlebars. "Believe me, my young friend, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- half so much worth doing as simply messing about with bikes."
Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751365
10/03/18 1:07 pm
10/03/18 1:07 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,253
South cone
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reverb Offline
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...1- 2T does not need oil (barely) is like parts put together that perform incredible (but sound horrible)
2-Luck is the only important thing in the world.
3-Pristine cleaned engines are way more important than many other stuff regarding rebuilding.
4-The valves clearances in mine did not changed (or could changed 0.001 how can I measure that?) after the re torque (with a copper gasket)
5-Assumed that these engines can work with no matter the timing and type of rebuild; no doubt that the finesse in all the departments turns an engine in a better one providing more HPs etc where you need it, but seems (included the factory) that not so many require those specs.

Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751399
10/03/18 5:16 pm
10/03/18 5:16 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

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J

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,251
Boston, Massachusetts
If the pump fails you will seize the rod bearings from lack of oil. But there are conditions with a Triumph where the gauge could read no pressure and still not seize the rod bearings. This when either the oil seal feeding the crankshaft inverts, someone puts non-timed tappets in an engine set up for timed tappets or the oil pressure relief valve sticks open.

With oil presented to the end of the crankshaft a center fed crankshaft will deliver enough oil in these conditions to prevent the bearing from seizing. At least until the area heats up from lack of oil flow. There will be enough oil to allow the dynamic wedge to form, but not enough flow to cool the rod, and its bearing.


Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: John Healy] #751401
10/03/18 5:26 pm
10/03/18 5:26 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,181
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Thanks John..I inspected both the pump , seal and OPRV after the incident...Saw nothing wrong but given what you say it had to be the OPRV since the tappets were not touched..I will check it out again...And like my other Triumphs, it will get an oil pressure gauge....

the front engine seal inverted on my dual engine racer...But it did show about 20 psi on the gauge off idle...There was no damage...


I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions
Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: John Healy] #751462
10/04/18 7:37 am
10/04/18 7:37 am
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 896
Skudeneshavn Norway
S
Stein Roger Offline

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Skudeneshavn Norway
Originally Posted by John Healy
If the pump fails you will seize the rod bearings from lack of oil. But there are conditions with a Triumph where the gauge could read no pressure and still not seize the rod bearings. This when either the oil seal feeding the crankshaft inverts, someone puts non-timed tappets in an engine set up for timed tappets or the oil pressure relief valve sticks open.

With oil presented to the end of the crankshaft a center fed crankshaft will deliver enough oil in these conditions to prevent the bearing from seizing. At least until the area heats up from lack of oil flow. There will be enough oil to allow the dynamic wedge to form, but not enough flow to cool the rod, and its bearing.

According to Kevin Cameron (probably in Vintage Bike), an engine like the Triumph twin will run fine with oil just gravity fed to the crank. The centripetal forces in the sludge tube cavity will create much more pressure than the oil pump ever could, and it's the oil escaping through the bearings that creates the flow. Many a Triumph twin racer has worried over the oil pressure dropping at sustained high rpm's, which could be caused by the oil escaping faster than the oil pump can deliver.
I confess to having thought about this before I read Cameron's article, but the great man made it sound so obvious.

Let me add that it's in no way suggested to run an engine this way! There's cold oil and low rpm's to contend with too.
It has made me think about the oil feed bush vs the garter seal though. I no longer convert P/U timing covers to take the seal, I use the standard, or a custom made bushing.
No way a bush will flip...

Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751465
10/04/18 7:54 am
10/04/18 7:54 am
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,707
Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
D
dave jones Offline
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Emsworth, sunny south of Engla...
I had a crank feed seal (SDA make) fall to pieces on my bike some time ago. I didn't strip the big ends but just tried them for up and down movement and they seemed ok so I left them. I have done over 25, 000 miles since. I would hear a knock if they were bad? Hope all ok.

Dave

Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: dave jones] #751467
10/04/18 8:14 am
10/04/18 8:14 am
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 896
Skudeneshavn Norway
S
Stein Roger Offline

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Skudeneshavn Norway
Yes you'd hear them knocking, and if they don't knock after 25000 miles I'd say you're OK...

Horror story: I overhauled a Commando Combat engine where the owner claimed the only issue was with oil scavenging. Otherwise it ran fine according to him.
It turned out both crank journals were so worn that a .030" grind barely cleaned them up, and he had ben running standard size shells!
I didn't hear it run before so I can't say if there was any knocking, before but I would have thought there was...

Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751469
10/04/18 9:58 am
10/04/18 9:58 am
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 672
Great Southern Land
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Great Southern Land
^^^I did a 500 Triumph twin like that, owner was convinced the knock sound was from the primary...but when I stripped it down I honestly couldn't find a reason for a big knock [the primary was bad, but I've see worse]. I tried to talk him into letting me take the head and barrels off and he wouldn't let me. In the end I said that I would take them off and if I didn't find anything I would personally pay for parts and labour was free. Once the head was off I could see the pistons rocking in the bore, and when I took the barrels off I could grab the primary side piston/conrod and move it up and down about 1/8" without the crank moving. I told him that he wouldn't have ridden it 5 miles before it all went to hell!!! Suddenly he found a newfound belief in my assessment of the bike and let me completely rebuild the motor.
TBH I couldn't see how hr rode it around as much as he did without disaster striking. He admitted riding it 100km from one town to another with the knock being very loud!!!
And the best part....the bike was recently purchased as a 'completely rebuilt', he was robbed. The bike hadn't had anyone with any experience or knowledge work on it in decades.

Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751497
10/04/18 2:14 pm
10/04/18 2:14 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 2,253
South cone
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reverb Offline
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...I had a broken shell bearing (oversized one due to the older con rods are smaller than the 1950s ones so I needed to go oversize but may be the material was not good enough) in my 500cc so you heard a knock but the engine continued to run but after may be 800kms I decided to stop the engine and fix all. That shell bearing was in pieces, the other and all the other stuff was good.

Also with this 750 with rotary pump, for some reason the pump starved and let me without pressure, I did not noticed until I saw the needle of the gauge in zero; so may be I did 1km or more without pressure but since that I put around 3000kms and seems ok, never heard any knock sound.
May be all that volume of oil that these pumps move was what saved the bearings?

Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751723
10/06/18 10:44 am
10/06/18 10:44 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,181
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Running from demons in WNY
I'm starting to throw some money at the engine....Saw a set of NOS Triumph .020 pistons on eBay for a good price and then a set of Riken rings....So no worries about .001 cylinder taper on this fine machine..I cleaned the crank sludge trap, half full, the crank journals look and measure like new...So...a late 650 nitrided exhaust cam,rod bearings ,right side trans main bearing, seals and the bottom end is good to go...The head has minimal valve seat recession, the valves look ok but a new set of uncoated Kibblewhites and new springs...And of course new guides...Around here a bore and hone is about $100...and 150 bucks to grind the valves and hone the guides to size...


I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions
Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #751730
10/06/18 12:49 pm
10/06/18 12:49 pm
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,962
Elburn, Ill. USA
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Irish Swede Offline
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Elburn, Ill. USA
Please post total cost of the engine rebuild. This will be helpful in planning costs of my current project.

I'm working on a '70 TR6R that I have been "fitting" all the chassis parts to make sure they DO fit,
and now have to budget for the engine and gearbox work. Engine is still together, and in the frame at this time.

Re: Another Triumph opened up [Re: Hillbilly bike] #752336
10/11/18 3:34 pm
10/11/18 3:34 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,181
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
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Running from demons in WNY
So far it's rod bearings,set of NOS 750 pistons, Riken rings,valve guides, seal kit, pushrod seals, sludge trap plug, $380 total. There's other parts not included that are not needed for a normal rebuild....Machining costs yet to come...

When I disassemble, I take notice of unusual wear marks..I noticed the rod bearing shells has marks on the back that could be from fretting....or just less than ideal machine work on the big ends.The connecting rod caps were rotated 180 degrees from what they should be...The rod big ends were not round when measured....I rotated the caps and just like that the big ends are round....The case sealer looked like brown goo Permatex..I doubt Triumph used it in 1979...So I might not be the first man inside...


[Linked Image]


I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions

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