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Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #750650
09/27/18 12:36 am
09/27/18 12:36 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,412
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline

DOPE
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ohio, usa
[Linked Image]

that's a possibility. there's a couple of ER-6s around for sale, no ER-5s. but this area is full of the little ninjas. clearly i need to spend some time with a tape measure.

i'll have to source another motor. the extra one i have now is going into into a period track bike this winter.


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Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #750852
09/28/18 9:18 pm
09/28/18 9:18 pm
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 871
Skudeneshavn Norway
S
Stein Roger Offline

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Stein Roger  Offline

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S

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Skudeneshavn Norway
I saw a Triumph T140 engine in the same type Suzuki frame as Mark’s on the Isle of Man maybe 20 years or so ago.
It was featured in a bike magazine later, but I couldn’t say how the engine was mounted. I’ll look for the magazine l when I get home. As I recall it was a standard engine, nothing fancy.

Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #751586
10/05/18 7:13 am
10/05/18 7:13 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Online content OP
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Mark Parker  Online Content OP
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Bega NSW Australia
This is a video of what the BSA does. Still waiting on leaner needle jets, hopefully that's all it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6hos12a3lE&feature=youtu.be


mark
Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #751918
10/08/18 10:43 am
10/08/18 10:43 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Online content OP
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Mark Parker  Online Content OP
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Bega NSW Australia
Fitted leaner needle jets but its more or less the same though with much less fuel stand off. CDI units are here so might set them up and see if it's the same. And after that try my carbs.


mark
Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #752031
10/09/18 7:47 am
10/09/18 7:47 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Online content OP
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Mark Parker  Online Content OP
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Bega NSW Australia
Well there you go. Two DC CDIs, two coils, two pulse coils, big fat sparks and it's alive, once we put the richer Needle-jets back in. Timing light works at all revs and we can probably open the plug gaps a little. If we added wiring plugs and terminals the total cost of the ignition was less than $100. Advance looks good. It will just be a matter of seeing how it is on the road. Sounds crisp and good.


These are tiny little coils, is there a down side to using this type of set up?

Last edited by Mark Parker; 10/09/18 8:01 am.

mark
Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #752035
10/09/18 8:30 am
10/09/18 8:30 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Online content OP
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Mark Parker  Online Content OP
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Bega NSW Australia
This is the type of coil and DC CDI. What it looks like, may not be the exact same one.

[Linked Image]


We have instruments, headlights and blinkers and taillight to wire in, and some paintwork to do. Ben likes the idea of blue and white, and it would look good, even if not exactly BSA colours.

[Linked Image]

Very happy the thing is now revving up and down as it should. And so glad I didn't mess with the cam timing trying to get it running right. I wonder what I had wrong with the Honda ignition? Wonder if the 883 would start and run better with this type of ignition? Would running a bigger plug gap give more hp I wonder?


The ignition on the 883 does not have enough energy to fire the timing light very well at higher rpm, the CDI does.


Last edited by Mark Parker; 10/09/18 8:34 am.

mark
Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #752156
10/10/18 6:55 am
10/10/18 6:55 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 340
Forfar, Scotland
J
JER.Hill Offline
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JER.Hill  Offline
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J

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 340
Forfar, Scotland
Hi Mark

Good to hear you got to the bottom of the issue. Where does that ignition unit come from!

regards

John

Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #752165
10/10/18 1:06 pm
10/10/18 1:06 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Online content OP
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Mark Parker  Online Content OP
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Bega NSW Australia
The units are like this, possibly a different brand, I'll find out, but it would be good to see how they work. Ben ordered the wiring plugs to go with them and we found a wiring diagram. It has a bit of a miss after mounting them properly, so I'll check and solder the connections. Crimp terminals on light wire isn't great. Actually I'll replace the light wire going part way to the triggers. Even on a 360degree twin two of these may be good, where you place the triggers on the points plate determines the firing angles. They need to think they are crankshaft triggered so two screws sitting up on where the old auto adv sat are needed otherwise it won't advance when required.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Hig...vid=63f8f085-6c35-41a9-8274-191b1007cf62


mark
Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #752279
10/11/18 7:19 am
10/11/18 7:19 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 340
Forfar, Scotland
J
JER.Hill Offline
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JER.Hill  Offline
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J

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 340
Forfar, Scotland
Hi Mark

Thanks for the information.

regards

John

Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #752288
10/11/18 9:01 am
10/11/18 9:01 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Online content OP
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Mark Parker  Online Content OP
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Bega NSW Australia
Still not right, has a missfire. Might check and ensure there are no air leaks in the intake rubbers or manifold joints or balance tube,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYSaYt51WNg&feature=youtu.be


mark
Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #752320
10/11/18 1:41 pm
10/11/18 1:41 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Online content OP
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Bega NSW Australia
The DC CDI I posted was what he got. These make things much easier:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/CDI...ml?shortkey=zMbuyQNb&addresstype=600

I've ordered some trigger/pulse coils that should be easier to mount on the points plate. I'll give an update when I get them. They should be more accurate I think when face down. Triggers are further out and lass disturbed if it wobbles being on a flat plane. I have pulse coils mounted outside the points plate area on the 883, having them on a moveable plate would be much easier for adjusting timing. We never tried adjusting timing with the 883 on the dyno, and it's quite possible that where its set is not optimum. If I have a moveable points plate I can see incremental adjustment, pulling the rotor and moving it makes it more difficult. As does not having a hole in the primary cover.


mark
Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #752425
10/12/18 9:37 am
10/12/18 9:37 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,999
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Is it still possible that the cam is too lumpy for the capacity of the motor?

I always remember the twin carb A50 that ma friend had, with a 473 lightning cam it went like S**T off a shovel, but I find them quite tame on the A65, there was nothing special about that A50 either. Also (and probably mentioned earlier) that I had retarded a 473 cam on my lightning so that the lobe centres were equal, (I cant remember the values, but they could have both had an LCA of about 105 for inlet and exhaust) the bike went well, accellerated a treat and top end was good too, but somewhere in the middle about 4000 RPM it was flat, completely flat!! wouldn't accelerate for anything, and this was over a 1000RPM window, a better coil improved it and gave it a 500RPM window but still a pain in the butt having the change to a lower gear, to rev it to a point where I could drop it back in above the flat spot.

If your cam allows it, you could advance the cam a tooth, or with a modified pinion, half a tooth (8 degrees) without clipping the valves on the crowns. but if the over lap is too much, for how ever well flowing the head is (it'll only pull in 375cc per cylinder) are you loosing vacuum (dynamic pressure) becasue the overlap is too much, so your not pulling as much fuel/Air through as you need?

All that said I never did work out why the lightning cam in that position was poor at those revs, advanced from that it was fine, and either side of that flat spot it went like stink....


beerchug
Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #752427
10/12/18 9:48 am
10/12/18 9:48 am
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Online content OP
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Mark Parker  Online Content OP
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
When you retard them you are relying on gas speed forcing the mixture in past the later shutting inlet valve as the piston is coming up, so exhaust and ports and I imagine compression all play a part in what happens when. Generally the slightly later shutting inlet enhances top end, but really that's minor compared to what can be done with the head and ports.


mark
Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Allan Gill] #752515
10/12/18 11:13 pm
10/12/18 11:13 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,000
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
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Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Is it still possible that the cam is too lumpy for the capacity of the motor?

I always remember the twin carb A50 that ma friend had, with a 473 lightning cam it went like S**T off a shovel, but I find them quite tame on the A65, there was nothing special about that A50 either. Also (and probably mentioned earlier) that I had retarded a 473 cam on my lightning so that the lobe centres were equal, (I cant remember the values, but they could have both had an LCA of about 105 for inlet and exhaust) the bike went well, accellerated a treat and top end was good too, but somewhere in the middle about 4000 RPM it was flat, completely flat!! wouldn't accelerate for anything, and this was over a 1000RPM window, a better coil improved it and gave it a 500RPM window but still a pain in the butt having the change to a lower gear, to rev it to a point where I could drop it back in above the flat spot.

If your cam allows it, you could advance the cam a tooth, or with a modified pinion, half a tooth (8 degrees) without clipping the valves on the crowns. but if the over lap is too much, for how ever well flowing the head is (it'll only pull in 375cc per cylinder) are you loosing vacuum (dynamic pressure) becasue the overlap is too much, so your not pulling as much fuel/Air through as you need?

All that said I never did work out why the lightning cam in that position was poor at those revs, advanced from that it was fine, and either side of that flat spot it went like stink....


Reversion flat spot...sometimes it can be remedied somewhat with exhaust tuning...I have found on Triumphs and a Norton, longer exhaust length, as in long mufflers, can worsen reversion. On a Trident with a huge flat spot from a aftermarket header, a one inch balance pipe between the pipes about a foot from the head completely eliminated reversion for a slight loss at top end..There are other factors at play like intake length, carb mixture and obviously cam timing and I believe the shape of the piston dome in hemi head Brit engines


I ride dinosaurs that eat money
Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: JER.Hill] #753103
Yesterday at 10:30 AM
Yesterday at 10:30 AM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Online content OP
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Mark Parker  Online Content OP
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
John, these trigger pulse coils seem the go. I cut the right angled mounting pieces off and drilled mounting holes in the flat part left either side. I'm making an alloy points plate which needs two 20mm holes for the things to sit down in, the wiring terminals will be on the outside hanging over the points plate which on the BSA motors doesn't matter. It's simple to make, they need spacers or bosses under the mounting screws. I should be able to fire the Honda ign with them or try the DC CDI.


https://www.aliexpress.com/item/In-...tml?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.62174c4dvNs96s


mark
Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #753152
Yesterday at 06:22 PM
Yesterday at 06:22 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,106
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
Thanks for posting this stuff Mark, these coils are amazingly small. Who would have thought? I used to believe size was everything with coils, sjust another thing i had wrong.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: gavin eisler] #753183
Yesterday at 10:55 PM
Yesterday at 10:55 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,019
Aus
N
NickL Online content
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NickL  Online Content
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Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,019
Aus
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
Thanks for posting this stuff Mark, these coils are amazingly small. Who would have thought? I used to believe size was everything with coils, sjust another thing i had wrong.


Remember Gavin, these are CDI units NOT inductive or HEI types. The very short energy pulse gives very little heating and if the core material is good then transfer ratios are good too.
Unlike HEI or Inductive setups, effectively the energy is not stored in the coil but in a charged capacitor, the coil serves as a transformer more or less.
If you look at the small replacement 'Energy Transfer' type coils around now, they are similar in construction.

Also, consider the 'Coil on Plug' type that are used now, they are very small too. Systems govern/control the stack time so well now.

I hope these work out ok for you Mark, my own thoughts are that with only a single plug head and a bore that size you will have ignition energy problems
causing flat spots and incomplete combustion. with those setups. They are designed for small capacity engines. Every manufacturer of CDI setups for
aftermarket use on 'hot rods etc' uses a multi spark system to overcome the CDI shortcomings. You may find a larger plug gap, say 45 thou will help
if the coils will fire it.
I may be talking crap but it's worth noting that both Bosch and Lucas abandoned CDI ignition designs in the '70's for similar reasons. Hitachi, Nippon-Denso, Mitsubishi
carried on with them for use on 2-stroke and small bore motorcycle and similar engines.

Last edited by NickL; Yesterday at 11:40 PM.

No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: Cam timing question with A65 750 [Re: Mark Parker] #753217
1 hour ago
1 hour ago
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,422
Bega NSW Australia
Mark Parker Online content OP
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Mark Parker  Online Content OP
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Bega NSW Australia
Thanks for explaining that Nick, I will let you know how it goes.


This is just the trigger system which will work with my honda ign as well and it fits nicely on the points plate.


[Linked Image]

two bolt heads to pulse them, to mimic crank triggering, so the advance works properly.

[Linked Image]

How it fits.

[Linked Image]


I'll cut a big hole in the plate so I can see the bolt heads and get a feeler gauge in to set the clearance.


mark
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