BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
The Bonneville Shop JRC Engineering dealers
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Member Spotlight
Woolly
Woolly
Co Durham, England
Posts: 38
Joined: May 2008
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
45 registered members (AML), 262 guests, and 443 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
blayde54, Davenz13, Sean65, Rerock, pkuzyk
10477 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
NickL 83
franko 76
Triless 61
Popular Topics(Views)
748,142 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics68,838
Posts670,500
Members10,477
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 #752158
10/10/18 9:24 am
10/10/18 9:24 am
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content OP

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content OP

Parts Dealer

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
I own a 1946 Royal Enfield J2 that I have resurrected over the past 2 years. It's a real sweet bike and a joy to ride. I have rebuilt the entire motorcycle except the bottom end.


Recently I performed a top end job to fix my "smoking issues". I installed new guides, valves, 3-angle cut, etc. Barrel was bored to +.020" and mic @.0002" which is round..


I installed my cast rings dry (like I normally do) with a 180 grit finish.


Start the bike for the break in procedure, still smokes...


At start up, the smoke is very relevant.


This is what I "suspect" is happening.. I believe I have a case of a wet stumping problem.


The breather has all the correct parts, and every passage has been blown out. Oil is showing signs of return, nice flow to the head. I notice when I come back from a ride, oil will be shown on my rear tire and on the ground. I though at first it was blow by pressuring the cases.. not the case. I check my pump and noticed some "high and low" spots. Plungers offer a nice "suction. (waiting for lapping tool). I had another complete timing cover in nice shape to test out, still the same problem. Blowing smoke...


I again blew all passages with no effect. Compression is strong where it should be. I can only assume I have a wet sumping issue causing the crankcase to fill with oil...


I am very close to pulling the engine out and doing a rebuild to insect this problem. Could it be a debris trapped inside causing oil not to return? Worn bottom end clearances? Weak scavenge?


At this point I have exhausted my resources and I'm seeking some advice from those that may have experienced this.. What do you guys think? Cheers!

Last edited by C.B.S; 10/10/18 9:27 am.
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752229
10/10/18 9:32 pm
10/10/18 9:32 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 908
newcastle australia
trevinoz Offline
BritBike Forum member
trevinoz  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 908
newcastle australia
Lapping the pumps will help greatly, I have had a fair bit of success on a friends bikes.
Another source of oil entering the sump is via the timing side bronze bush.
I would lap the pumps and see what the effect is.

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: trevinoz] #752244
10/10/18 11:37 pm
10/10/18 11:37 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content OP

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content OP

Parts Dealer

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
Originally Posted by trevinoz
Lapping the pumps will help greatly, I have had a fair bit of success on a friends bikes.
Another source of oil entering the sump is via the timing side bronze bush.
I would lap the pumps and see what the effect is.




I appracite the tips, I will lap them and report. I'll check the bushing / crank for any lateral movement when the cover is off. Thanks again

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752359
10/11/18 7:29 pm
10/11/18 7:29 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content OP

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content OP

Parts Dealer

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
Something is lodged in the sump... engine will have to come down. I started the bike, remove the bottom plug to verify oil and there was a very small amount coming out the sump

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752364
10/11/18 8:21 pm
10/11/18 8:21 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 908
newcastle australia
trevinoz Offline
BritBike Forum member
trevinoz  Offline
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 908
newcastle australia
You probably won't find any lateral movement as the bush is not a bearing, it sits outboard of the roller bearing. I think that it is just a crude seal.

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: trevinoz] #752416
10/12/18 4:16 am
10/12/18 4:16 am
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content OP

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content OP

Parts Dealer

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
Originally Posted by trevinoz
You probably won't find any lateral movement as the bush is not a bearing, it sits outboard of the roller bearing. I think that it is just a crude seal.




Alright, I'll do some inspecting

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752509
10/12/18 10:54 pm
10/12/18 10:54 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
R
Rohan Offline
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
Have you drained the sump at any point while this smoking is going on, and measured how much oil is in there ?

I'm not sure I like that idea of dry ring startup, old type rings aren't used to that sort of treatment ?
Fine if you are going racing with modern stuff....

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: Rohan] #752513
10/12/18 11:10 pm
10/12/18 11:10 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content OP

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content OP

Parts Dealer

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
Originally Posted by Rohan
Have you drained the sump at any point while this smoking is going on, and measured how much oil is in there ?

I'm not sure I like that idea of dry ring startup, old type rings aren't used to that sort of treatment ?
Fine if you are going racing with modern stuff....



Yes, I checked that, very little oil... I will be taking the engine down

For the rings, Ive oiled rings before and installed them dry before.. No problems

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752523
10/13/18 1:19 am
10/13/18 1:19 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
R
Rohan Offline
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
Have you checked that the rings are installed the right way up - dot or mark uppermost.
The oil ring in particular....

If I had a persistent problem like this, I'd consider blocking the oil flow to the head for a bit,
and see where that takes you. For a short time, its not going to do any damage.
(early 30s bikes had no flow to the valve gear, and they weren't much less long lived)
(there must be some residual oil there though).

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: Rohan] #752540
10/13/18 5:14 am
10/13/18 5:14 am
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content OP

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content OP

Parts Dealer

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
Originally Posted by Rohan
Have you checked that the rings are installed the right way up - dot or mark uppermost.
The oil ring in particular....

If I had a persistent problem like this, I'd consider blocking the oil flow to the head for a bit,
and see where that takes you. For a short time, its not going to do any damage.
(early 30s bikes had no flow to the valve gear, and they weren't much less long lived)
(there must be some residual oil there though).




Positive.

I removed the sump, no oil comes out. When it's running very little oil shows on my pan. The case is filled with oil but is not "circulating" causing a major wet sumping problem.

I will lap the pump, if no avail, the engine will come apart.

I can only assume something (sludge, debris, etc) is blocking or clogged the sump.

Maybe that''s why the bike was "not used" for many years?

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752557
10/13/18 8:37 am
10/13/18 8:37 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
R
Rohan Offline
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
"The case is filled with oil but is not "circulating" causing a major wet sumping problem."

I hate to say it, but those 2 statements don't make sense.
Are you aware that the sump and the oil compartment in the J (and J2) are separate.
The oil compartment (with the filler cap) functions as an oil tank, the engine is dry sump like most brit bangers.

So, are you removing the plug under the sump, or under the oil compartment. ??
There are 2 brass plugs, one under each compartment.
If the sump is full and the oil compartment is empty, then the pump will have nothing to draw from,
and if the sump is filled with oil then the smoke is rather inevitable.

That seal around the end of the crank is rather vital, if its bad then maybe everything has escaped into the sump ??
You need to sort this out pronto, it can ruin the crank if its not getting its oil.
My J has a cork seal, which needs to be replaced every so often, they can fall apart.
I believe you can buy some sort of synthetic version of them these days, but some are better than others.

hopethishelps.

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: Rohan] #752583
10/13/18 10:59 am
10/13/18 10:59 am
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content OP

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content OP

Parts Dealer

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
Originally Posted by Rohan
"The case is filled with oil but is not "circulating" causing a major wet sumping problem."

I hate to say it, but those 2 statements don't make sense.
Are you aware that the sump and the oil compartment in the J (and J2) are separate.
The oil compartment (with the filler cap) functions as an oil tank, the engine is dry sump like most brit bangers.

So, are you removing the plug under the sump, or under the oil compartment. ??
There are 2 brass plugs, one under each compartment.
If the sump is full and the oil compartment is empty, then the pump will have nothing to draw from,
and if the sump is filled with oil then the smoke is rather inevitable.

That seal around the end of the crank is rather vital, if its bad then maybe everything has escaped into the sump ??
You need to sort this out pronto, it can ruin the crank if its not getting its oil.
My J has a cork seal, which needs to be replaced every so often, they can fall apart.
I believe you can buy some sort of synthetic version of them these days, but some are better than others.

hopethishelps.


Yes I am aware of that.

The plug under the sump is what I am removing. I would assume there should be approx a cup of oil when you remove the plug?

It's getting oil, that I do know.

I'll do more plugging away and dig deeper into this.

Thank you Rohan


Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752646
10/13/18 8:11 pm
10/13/18 8:11 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
R
Rohan Offline
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
Mmmm, it all sounds sounds normal and good there.
So I'm not so sure that wet sumping is involved, at all ?

I'll go back to my earlier comments about blocking off the oil supply to the head temporarily,
and see where it goes from there.

Does it continue smoking when you ride it, or is it mostly on startup ?

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752674
10/14/18 12:09 am
10/14/18 12:09 am
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content OP

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content OP

Parts Dealer

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
Continues to smoke at all times, start up is worse, but does clear up

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752705
10/14/18 5:10 am
10/14/18 5:10 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
R
Rohan Offline
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
I think you should try blocking the oil feed to the head.

If it stops smoking, you know its up top somewhere - getting down or around
the guide somehow, or maybe even a cracked head ?

And if it keeps smoking, you know it HAS to be the piston/rings/bore.

Is the piston coated in oil on top and the plug oily, or is it going straight out the exhaust port.

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752775
10/14/18 9:29 pm
10/14/18 9:29 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content OP

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content OP

Parts Dealer

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
Top dome of piston is very oily, I did the top end 2 times.... same results! Guides have about .0015" clearance so I do not think much oil can work its way down there.



Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752826
10/15/18 5:10 am
10/15/18 5:10 am
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 519
Wisconsin, USA
F
franko Online content

BritBike Forum member
franko  Online Content

BritBike Forum member
F

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 519
Wisconsin, USA
At some point in the heads life, could the guides been driven out cold? So as the clearance is between the guide and the head itself.

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752831
10/15/18 6:41 am
10/15/18 6:41 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
R
Rohan Offline
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
The head is iron, so they are supposed to be pressed out cold.
(?).
(Alloy heads are a different kettle of fish entirely, which is where you were going...)

Although I wondered about if the guides were now crooked, or gouged the walls when they were refitted,
so are no longer oil tight. (a wick-in loctite product may be able to fix this)
Or the head cracked, if the guide(s) were too big an interference fit.
(I've got an iron head like this, where someone fitted bronze guides and did a terrible job of it).
This pretty much renders them scrap.

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752865
10/15/18 1:28 pm
10/15/18 1:28 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content OP

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content OP

Parts Dealer

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
Well, I use a tool that removes and inserts the guide. I do not use a drift...

I take caution and time installing and removing guides.

Also, to answer the question, I use my bore gauge to measure the I.D. of the hole for the press fit.


Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #752866
10/15/18 1:37 pm
10/15/18 1:37 pm
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,134
Ottawa, Canada
gREgg-K Offline

BritBike Forum member
gREgg-K  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,134
Ottawa, Canada
Is it possible that you have interchanged the feed and scavenge pumps in the timing cover? Doing that would allow for oil feed, but not for enough capacity for adequate scavenging.

Note that the scavenge pump has about twice the capacity of the feed pump, to ensure adequate scavenging.

... gREgg


Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
magneto@spyder-it.com
Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: gREgg-K] #752895
10/15/18 5:16 pm
10/15/18 5:16 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content OP

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content OP

Parts Dealer

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
Originally Posted by gREgg-K
Is it possible that you have interchanged the feed and scavenge pumps in the timing cover? Doing that would allow for oil feed, but not for enough capacity for adequate scavenging.

Note that the scavenge pump has about twice the capacity of the feed pump, to ensure adequate scavenging.

... gREgg




I don't think one can interchange them, different sizes.

Last edited by C.B.S; 10/15/18 5:17 pm.
Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #753048
10/16/18 9:03 pm
10/16/18 9:03 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
R
Rohan Offline
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Offline
BritBike Forum member
R

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,359
Oztralia
So have you tried blocking off the oil line to the head yet ?

Something is very wrong in there.....

Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: Rohan] #753075
10/17/18 1:35 am
10/17/18 1:35 am
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,134
Ottawa, Canada
gREgg-K Offline

BritBike Forum member
gREgg-K  Offline

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,134
Ottawa, Canada
Originally Posted by Rohan
SNIP ... Something is very wrong in there.....

C.B.S.man : Given the wet sumping, have you checked the oil return to see whether a decent volume of oil is returning to the tank?
Have you confirmed if the return pump is even operational? Wouldn't be the first time a peg had snapped off the drive spindle.

Given the black and white symptoms you're reporting, there aren't all that many dark mysteries to delve into and resolve.

Last edited by gREgg-K; 10/17/18 1:37 am.

Spyder Integrated Technologies
Lucas, BTH, & Miller Magneto & Dynamo Restoration
SMITHS Chronometric Restoration
magneto@spyder-it.com
Re: The Quest Of Wet Sumping - J2 [Re: C.B.S] #753086
10/17/18 4:36 am
10/17/18 4:36 am
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content OP

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content OP

Parts Dealer

Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,223
Lancaster, California
Oil return into the tank was good, it would squirt onto the front fender. I split the cases today....

Crank rod is bent

Timing bushing is very worn

A lot of sludge in the bottom end

All passages are clear



Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.2