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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747651 09/02/18 3:51 pm
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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: C.B.S] #747663 09/02/18 6:24 pm
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Originally Posted by C.B.S
Based off what I see in regards to Hepolite oil pumps, I see a very high quality part. If I had an A65 engine that I was building I would put a new Hepolite oil pump in but that's my personal opinion.


Have you had one in your hands?


beerchug
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747800 09/03/18 7:53 pm
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I was delighted to spot the Hepolite pumps on sale, even if my wallet wasn't keen on parting with £300+
What a pity that they come from a source with a questionable quality record.

Noting that the retail price isn't any cheaper than the tarted up SRM unit, wouldn't it be possible for someone with a good quality control regime to produce a good iron body pump for the same sort of money ?

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Allan Gill] #747885 09/04/18 3:01 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Originally Posted by C.B.S
Based off what I see in regards to Hepolite oil pumps, I see a very high quality part. If I had an A65 engine that I was building I would put a new Hepolite oil pump in but that's my personal opinion.


Have you had one in your hands?



I stated I have one... and took photos



[Linked Image]
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: ferretjuggler] #747980 09/05/18 1:00 pm
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Originally Posted by ferretjuggler
Noting that the retail price isn't any cheaper than the tarted up SRM unit, wouldn't it be possible for someone with a good quality control regime to produce a good iron body pump for the same sort of money ?


Like who? Who else is actually investing hard cash into the industry these days, and prepared to put stock on the shelf? You can't buy a pump from SRM today, because they don't have any. Same applies to buying a 930 Premier from AMAL, or a new Chrome Rim from Central Wheel....it's just the way it is, unfortunately!

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: TripleTown] #747992 09/05/18 3:23 pm
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Understood, IME the always changing demand for and the limited numbers of sales has brought companies like SRM or Burlen to a point where they produce parts in batches that will have to be sold off prior to the new batch to be produced. That's fair enough from point of view as stock on the shelf is expensive.
This is more straightforward for BSA unit twin pumps. Btw. SRM state on their homepage that a new batch is on its way and should be available in September.
I do not fully understand Burlen's policy as the Premier carbs are suitable for more bikes than just BSA twins. IMHO they opened up a market for Wassell with their AMAL clones due to the fact that some people were fed up by waiting for the AMAL carb to be available/produced by Burlen. I once waited 4 months for a set of 930 Concentrics. At that time Wassell Evolution carbs more or less equivalent to Premiers were readily available at various dealers. Due to my own experience with their carb-related products I'll stay away from them for sure. But an awful lot of people are hesitating less also taking the significantly lower price into account.

FWIW

Cheers!

Ph.



Best regards
Phil
Duesseldorf/Germany
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'62 A 65 Star (disassembled)
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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: TripleTown] #748000 09/05/18 4:35 pm
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Originally Posted by C.B.S
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Originally Posted by C.B.S
Based off what I see in regards to Hepolite oil pumps, I see a very high quality part. If I had an A65 engine that I was building I would put a new Hepolite oil pump in but that's my personal opinion.


Have you had one in your hands?



I stated I have one... and took photos



Sorry didn't depict that from what you wrote, assumed you had seen other sellers web links... As you have one, who else would be better to fit one to their bike and give a road test performance....


Originally Posted by TripleTown
Originally Posted by ferretjuggler
Noting that the retail price isn't any cheaper than the tarted up SRM unit, wouldn't it be possible for someone with a good quality control regime to produce a good iron body pump for the same sort of money ?


Like who? Who else is actually investing hard cash into the industry these days, and prepared to put stock on the shelf? You can't buy a pump from SRM today, because they don't have any. Same applies to buying a 930 Premier from AMAL, or a new Chrome Rim from Central Wheel....it's just the way it is, unfortunately!



Noted also as fettetjuggler, with VAT the SRM pump is around £350 GBP, however this does include a gasket (which actually fits without blinding any holes - thanks to DoubleDiamond there) tab washer and new worm drive, I'm told they supply the worm drive as like all gears they should be replaced in pairs... Taking that into account the price is probably identical to the Wassal version for the pump alone. I'd have thought Wassel would have entered with a lower - more competitive price to capture sales over the SRM unit confused however personally I'll keep my money and give it to SRM for the time being, had plenty good service from the current unit and have another for the racer project already.


beerchug
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748010 09/05/18 6:38 pm
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Quote
I'd have thought Wassel would have entered with a lower - more competitive price to capture sales over the SRM unit


Totally agree with that Allen, the SRM is a proven unit whereas the Wassel is something of an unknown quality at the moment.

If anyone does buy one, it would be interesting if they could disassemble it, check the tolerances and general build quality etc. This might then help others in deciding which pump to buy.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Allan Gill] #748031 09/05/18 9:12 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Originally Posted by C.B.S
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
[quote=C.B.S]Based off what I see in regards to Hepolite oil pumps, I see a very high quality part. If I had an A65 engine that I was building I would put a new Hepolite oil pump in but that's my personal opinion.


Have you had one in your hands?



I stated I have one... and took photos



Sorry didn't depict that from what you wrote, assumed you had seen other sellers web links... As you have one, who else would be better to fit one to their bike and give a road test performance....


Nope, those where my links

I'm sure someone building an A50 or A65 would be delighted to try a new oil pump. Cheers


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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748104 09/06/18 9:57 am
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Originally Posted by NickL
Originally Posted by gunner
Quote
I'd have thought Wassel would have entered with a lower - more competitive price to capture sales over the SRM unit


Totally agree with that Allen, the SRM is a proven unit whereas the Wassel is something of an unknown quality at the moment.

If anyone does buy one, it would be interesting if they could disassemble it, check the tolerances and general build quality etc. This might then help others in deciding which pump to buy.



If i was coming into the market with a pump made of the correct material for the job, i'd ask the going rate at least for the product.


I'd suggest that the material cost of close grained cast iron, would be far higher than alloy, which is probably why SRM went the alloy route in the first place. That being said, I like the SRM pump.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748132 09/06/18 3:34 pm
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I cannot think (do not take that out of context) of any Japanese motor that uses a cast iron pump body. They are all cast aluminum and mostly with steel gerotors. They have many more pressure fed plain bearings than an A65.
The last time this pump discussion came up I made a higher volume gerotor pump with spur gear drive from stock components which brings the cost down. There was little interest in it.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: DMadigan] #748151 09/06/18 6:43 pm
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
I cannot think (do not take that out of context) of any Japanese motor that uses a cast iron pump body. They are all cast aluminum and mostly with steel gerotors. They have many more pressure fed plain bearings than an A65.
The last time this pump discussion came up I made a higher volume gerotor pump with spur gear drive from stock components which brings the cost down. There was little interest in it.



did you give a price though, i thought the interest was there..


beerchug
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748206 09/07/18 3:23 am
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True Nick, I think you were the only one interested in buying one. I do not have a price for producing them, I only made a test piece. I do not have a running A65 to test one on and I cannot sell them without it.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: TripleTown] #748214 09/07/18 7:26 am
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Quote
I'd suggest that the material cost of close grained cast iron, would be far higher than alloy, which is probably why SRM went the alloy route in the first place. That being said, I like the SRM pump.


Grey cast iron is the cheapest engineering metal on the planet about 1/4 the price of aluminium
The casting method for grey cast iron ( green sand moulding ) is also cheaper than for aluminium.
Grey cast iron also machines much easier ( thus cheaper ) than aluminium.

So the metal is cheaper to buy, the casting is cheaper to do and the machining is cheaper so one could only gues that either they are all made 1 at a time by a 1st class machinist or Wassel are making a massive profit.


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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: DMadigan] #748216 09/07/18 7:31 am
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The last time this pump discussion came up I made a higher volume gerotor pump with spur gear drive from stock components which brings the cost down. There was little interest in it.


Yep every one want to whinge & bitch about oil pumps till you ask them to open their wallets , then they go crawl off into the corner.
Many times I have noted that British bike riders are the most myserable tight fisted motorcyclists on the planet & BSA riders are the worst of them.

25 year as Club Secretary and not once did a single person ask "who has the best……….?" or even "is there a better ……….?"


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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: BSA_WM20] #748221 09/07/18 7:55 am
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Ah , Trevor, would love to have a beer or three with you over a yarn one day ! Would you be attending the International BSA Rally at Halls Gap ? Near where I live.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: BSA_WM20] #748235 09/07/18 10:45 am
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To BSA_WM20:

Trevor, If you think BSA owners are "cheap " when it comes to money, you never met USA Harley riders.

All the money in the world to waste on chrome do-dads to overload and disfigure their "Milwaukee Vibrators," but how they whine and cry when it comes into the shop for repairs!

Often their solution to this is to buy a new hammer, a cheap screwdriver (of the wrong size), an adjustable wrench, a case of cheap beer, and begin "fixing" it themselves, usually with disasterous (and EXPENSIVE) results.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: BSA_WM20] #748264 09/07/18 6:41 pm
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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Quote
The last time this pump discussion came up I made a higher volume gerotor pump with spur gear drive from stock components which brings the cost down. There was little interest in it.


Yep every one want to whinge & bitch about oil pumps till you ask them to open their wallets , then they go crawl off into the corner.
Many times I have noted that British bike riders are the most myserable tight fisted motorcyclists on the planet & BSA riders are the worst of them.

25 year as Club Secretary and not once did a single person ask "who has the best……….?" or even "is there a better ……….?"


Nick wasn't the only one, I am not one to skimp on a project, either it doesn't get built or it gets built in the best way possible/best materials etc... the subject became inconclusive and like most things drifted into the ether. Unlike Wassel, who are notorious for selling sh**e, I have yet to hear a bad thing about Davids mechanical offerings... The starter motor for the Triples has a lot of people talking and from what I have seen starts a rocket 3 like a breeze. (unlike the OEM Lucas type)


beerchug
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Triless] #748327 09/08/18 6:55 am
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We have a van booked on site plus one at the Halls Gap down the road plus a "villa" cause Pete the Prez can't live without expresso coffee.

But on the subject of cheapness.
When Halls Gap was first confirmed as the destination, I did a search to see what was available there as the actual grounds had not been announced.
There were 48 booking that day at the Halls Creek Van Park, so I booked a van there assuming it was the venue.
The ParkGate OTOH only showed 1 booking that weekend so the assumption that the venue was the Halls Gap Van park looked good.
But no there were 48 bookings at Halls Gap park cause it was $ 500 cheaper over the full week.
AFAIK Halls Gap park sold out well before the Park Gate.
BSA riders cheap ?

So yes we will be there I will be coming with Shane ( see the Who Is In, thread on the international board ) and we will be there Thursday for dinner , we hope.
Originally he was expecting 4 or 5 riders from the USA & Peter another Budwiser drinker but that is down to 2 now so we actually will have some spare beds.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 09/08/18 6:57 am.

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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748329 09/08/18 7:14 am
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Quote
I doubt the SRM pump is cast, it's more likely machined from bar stock. There is a fair bit of work in an oil pump however it's made
especially in small numbers so i've never thought the price was all that high for the unit complete with gears and all. It's just
that being a stupid idiot, i take the time to rebuild old ones. If i worked out the hours spent, a new one is much cheaper.


never having had one in my hands , no idea if they are machined from wrought stock, from a cast billet or from a forged or cast blank.
Casting is the cheapest method of forming metal.

Maching from a forged blank is the most expensive.

Modern multi axis CNC maching is quick & good but very expensive in both materials & machining, particularly when you are maching a part to replace a casting, you are spending a lot of time & money to turn solid metal into swarf and that is just for the body . People forget these machines cost millions so are generally leased and the maintenance costs are horrific.
We ssee a vidoe of them turning a $ 200 lump of steel into a crankshaft is 15 minues and think gees that was quick & cheap without realizing the machine costs $ 100 / hr sitting on the fllor doing nothing & another $ 300/ hr when being operated.
Much more efficient to start with a hollow bodied casting then machine to size.
That is why they were cast in zinc in the first place.
Zinc castings hold dimension much better than aluminium so can be virtually cast to size


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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748371 09/08/18 4:24 pm
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When I had to start making new triple clutch housings for fitting the starter I had two choices, machine from solid or cast and machine. Sand casting was out because of the low numbers and probably because I wanted to make the mold myself ( I think they make much more from the mold than pouring metal) so it was investment casting. The quote for the mold was $12k and $200 each piece. Although they would have let me make the mold the cost of the casting plus machining cost the same as machining from solid (12" round, 3-1/2" thick), plus I could have smaller batches made. Making large quantities by sand casting and machining it cheapest but not for small quantities. Material cost is small compared to machine time (aluminum was around $2.50/lb before our brilliant leader decided to tax imports so, of course, all the american sources raised their prices. Capitaism at its best.).
I doubt the volume is there to justify casting the iron pump. From the pictures the SRM pump is machined from solid as there is no advantage to machining a casting all over relative to machining from solid.
I bought the CNC mill used and refurbished it so it does not cost anything to sit there. The shop that produces my parts gives me a good rate.
Nick, if you want to test one I can make another and send it, I only ask that you report your findings here or by PM. I will try to make a cold test rig so it is not a complete unknown.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: DMadigan] #748480 09/09/18 11:48 am
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You got fleeced with that quote.
Pattern making was up untill a few years back a highly skilled trade.
Now days it is a desktop CAD job followed by a 3D print .
A blank for the oil pump would be treed 4 to 10 per the pattern if not more
So done commercially it is not all that expensive.

Done as a one off the costs per unit go through the roof.
A student of mine was put in charge of an early CNC machine and I was going to have him turn up fork legs ( no threads ) as a try out for the machine.
I supplied the tube & he did the machining, then management stepped in and wanted $ 2000 for him writing the machining code.
Back then a graduate was on $10,000 to put it into perspective, so the forks got tossed into the furnace & they reimbursed me the cost of the tube ( after some pushing ).

But yes it is a volume thing.
The SRM pump looks like a machined from solid job, particularly as they anodised them.


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Trevor
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748519 09/09/18 5:05 pm
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No, it would not have been a 3D print, this was for a metal mold to produce waxes for investment casting. I later simplified the design which could have been a two part mold, plus they would have let me machine it which very few casting shops would do. I might change to a rubber transfer mold off a 3D print for the waxes with the price of aluminum going up. Investment casting still takes hand labor to add the runners and reservoirs so the cost will not come down with quantities much. I have sold over 500 triple starters but they average about 10 per year. How many A65 oil pumps do you think would sell, 2 per year? Just making 10 would have parts (and money) sitting on the shelf for a long time.
Just buying a Norton starter motor is twice my triple starter and all they do is buy it from the source and hand it to you, not buy the basic starter then disassemble and reassemble on a custom adapter. So I do not make a huge amount of money on these parts.
Your example shows how production has changed and much cheaper. It would take me 15-20 minutes to draw and write the CNC program, including threads, for the fork tubes. However, if you are going to make good tubes a CNC will only get it rough. The outside has to be centreless ground and the inside honed which is usually another shop, then hard chromed (or better, one of the newer coatings), another shop.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748590 09/10/18 5:11 am
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IT was way back when I had hair & teeth.
However the sort of prices you quote make me feel the foundries just do not want to do the job.
Over on the M20 site a chap was looking to have an iron casting done.
The difference in quotes ranged around 300% when he found a small foundry who wanted the work.
Most now days are hooked on high volume turn over because that is all management can understand.
Back in my foundry days we used to get ingot moulds made at a local iron foundry.
As composition of an ingot mould s not particularly important I told them we would buy castings from bad melts or from low wash pours, at an appropriate price.
The cost of the moulds went down 1/2 because we basically ending up paying process scrap plus melt cost for them which was better for the foundry than pouring out dilution pigs.

OTOH I remember when CNC machining was as exotic method only able to be used in high profit defence work.
Now every 1/2 decient back yard workshop has one and as for 3D printing, 10 yeas ago it was research lab stuff now you buy them at Walmart, never seen a technology advance as quickly.

I saw a 3D cope & drag sand casting pattern printing machine on one of the AFS video links from their on line journal.
Amazing technology prints both sides of the base board at the same time adding runners & risers as needed for single platten moulds.
What they were pushing was it would be cheaper to make new patterns for each run rather than store hundreds of not thousands of patteren you might only ever use twice a decade.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 09/10/18 5:13 am.

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