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Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #749089
09/14/18 12:15 am
09/14/18 12:15 am
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NickL Offline
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If you can get bigger than a 2 thou feeler gauge into the bush/crank journal when cold, the clearance is too big.


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Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #749099
09/14/18 1:19 am
09/14/18 1:19 am
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,370
Magnolia, TX
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See page 40 in this mag for an article on how to check the clearance. Very easy to do and will give you peace of mind that it is correct. But if you would rather spend days debating with people on here that's your option.
https://books.google.com/books?id=g...amp;q=measuring%20bsa%20bush&f=false

Last edited by htown; 09/14/18 1:22 am.

1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #749276
09/15/18 3:00 pm
09/15/18 3:00 pm
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eelmgren Offline OP
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In all fairness, the dirty oil pump was on me. My engine guy only had the case halves, crank, cam and con rods.

I don't have the time now so this project will get pushed to the back of the garage once again. I'm putting it back together and will run it to see if cleaning and reassembling the oil pump made any difference at all, but I am starting to suspect the bush wasn't reamed correctly.

I put the pump and inner timing cover back on yesterday. Today I opened the timing hole on the front of the engine case and oil flowed out. Does this mean the oil pump check valve didn't seat?

Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #750835
09/28/18 4:54 pm
09/28/18 4:54 pm
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 6
south Ga.
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rweb Offline
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A friend Has the same problem with his 69 Lightning. When he first rode it after a rebuild by a reputable builder (in another state) the oil light would come on at 3,000 rpm and below. The builder had replaced the ball type BSA pressure relief valve with one from a Triumph, piston type, which I was told is a common thing to do. After measuring the return hole depth behind the relief valve it is so deep that only one thread reaches past it, not enough to stop hot thin oil from getting past back to return. When comparing the BSA ball type valve to the Triumph piston type valve the BSA valve has one more thread than the triumph and is about 1/8'' longer, goes deeper past the angled return passage. This change brought the problem down to where you are with problem only at hot idle. Later tried a SRM relief valve, seemed to help but the weather had turned cooler and when summer came around again same problem, has to rev above 1500 RPM's to put the light out when hot. He is using Rotella T6 5w40 oil, I suggested he try Mobile 1 V-Twin 20w50. We shall see....

What kind of thread sealer did you use and did it do any good?

Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #750840
09/28/18 6:08 pm
09/28/18 6:08 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,370
Magnolia, TX
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Yep 5w/40 is too thin.


1978 Bonneville T140E
1974 Trident
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
1971 Norton Commando
1972 Norton Commando
1973 Norton Commando
1974 Norton Commando
2004 XL 1200R Sportster

Everything will be alright in the end. If its not alright, its not the end.
Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #750850
09/28/18 8:39 pm
09/28/18 8:39 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,706
Mississauga, Ontario.
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Adam M. Offline
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Mississauga, Ontario.
I'd use LiquiMoly 10W60 and see what's going on.
This is the oil for BMW engines, helped my Trident a lot.

Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #750986
09/30/18 8:20 am
09/30/18 8:20 am
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Posts: 5,082
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Using thicker oil to extinguish an oil light doesn't mean its the right oil for the engine. If the viscosity is too thick it won't lubricate the bearings sufficiently and oil flow will be poorer also. this is why you don't put a 5w-40 in a car which is designed for 0w-30 engine oil. oils viscosity level has no bearing on the heat stress it receives/can cope with.

Most the problems people face is:

1) air cooled engines run much hotter than modern water cooled engines

2) mineral oils will deform their molecular structure "easier" than semi or fully synthetic (and all of which will deform before an ester based oil)
Once the molecule is destroyed, it will remain the 10 or 20 grade oil which is started off as, the additive pack will no longer function and that 10w-60 is purely a 10 weight oil. Synthetic based oils will reform under a higher stress load than the mineral oil, the quality or type of oil will determine how many times the motor can stand this....Also don't forget the oils for our bikes were originally listed out as 40 weight for the twins.... (side note a straight engine oil will hold its viscosity under more stress than the multigrade)

I switched to running 10w-40 ester based engine oil designed for motorbikes (id prefer a 20w-40 if i could get it) I run the motor with an oil cooler and a oil thermostat. And not once has this caused me any problems, unlike the mineral oil of any grade would start letting the engine get noisier on a very hot day.


beerchug
Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #751002
09/30/18 2:33 pm
09/30/18 2:33 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
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Mississauga, Ontario.
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Adam M. Offline
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Above mentioned oil is full synthetic 4 stroke oil with very good viscosity stability in wide temperature range, something what I've been looking for.
You can compare it with another full synthetic oil I used before :

http://www.liquimoly.co.il/wp-conte...Synthoil-Race-Tech-GT1-SAE-10W-60_EN.pdf

https://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/769A8EA5686329E280257E8A0053AC3A/$File/BPXE-9YWGAL.pdf

Somehow the last link is not "live", but if you right click it with instruction "go to" it will take you to Castrol pdf.

Last edited by Adam M.; 09/30/18 2:37 pm.
Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #751087
10/01/18 12:00 pm
10/01/18 12:00 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,082
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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This is what im using....

https://www.silkolene.com/motorcycle/4-stroke-engine-oils/comp-4-10w-40-xp/

The semi-synthetic is also very good (super 4)


beerchug
Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #751106
10/01/18 3:11 pm
10/01/18 3:11 pm
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Mississauga, Ontario.
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Adam M. Offline
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Not a bad oil as well with viscosity index at 163 and viscosity at 100 C on level with Castrol Edge.

http://www.fuchsnet.gr/data/PID/117413_PID.pdf

Better pouring point.

Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #751112
10/01/18 3:56 pm
10/01/18 3:56 pm
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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several componants are irrelevent to our engines as what they can do, or rather to a point they are, a -36C pour point is irrelevent in the UK as if the heights of Yorkshire reached that temperature then I wouldn't even leave the house. I doubt our engines will have any bearing with density either, although density is quoted at 15C it will change with temperature but the result is linear, but many products are somewhere between 0.750 and .850 Density (specific gravity) so as long as its not as heavy as water per unit of volume (1.000 SG)

Most oil companies quote oils at around 40c and 100c, the oil in the tank is around 40 when warm (or higher on a really hot day and if no filters, coolers etc are fitted) and at sheer temperatures your looking at possibly 100 or higher. unfortunately a viscosity on a multigrade (unlike density) isn't linear as the molecules will react and have a higher viscostiy at a higher temperature than they would at 40.

The viscosity comparisons at 40 and 100 are interesting though, comparing the 10-30 to the 10-40 show a different viscosity at 40C, so the molecules are already at their full potential viscosity at this point, if not the viscosity whilst might not be the same (10w) would be similar.

Umfortunately you seldom see sheer strength and oxidation values...


beerchug
Re: Oil Pressure [Re: DMadigan] #751286
10/02/18 9:48 pm
10/02/18 9:48 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,212
Lancaster, California
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
Not surprising you have no pressure. 0.004" of clearance on the timing bush is twice the limit. You only had pressure at warm up because the oil was thick.




This is a good point..

Can you confirm what the clearance is between the bush and crank journal? Stated both where .004?

Re: Oil Pressure [Re: Allan Gill] #751304
10/03/18 12:21 am
10/03/18 12:21 am
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Posts: 3,877
Sydney Australia
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Sydney Australia
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
several componants are irrelevent to our engines as what they can do, or rather to a point they are, a -36C pour point is irrelevent in the UK as if the heights of Yorkshire reached that temperature then I wouldn't even leave the house. I doubt our engines will have any bearing with density either, although density is quoted at 15C it will change with temperature but the result is linear, but many products are somewhere between 0.750 and .850 Density (specific gravity) so as long as its not as heavy as water per unit of volume (1.000 SG)

Most oil companies quote oils at around 40c and 100c, the oil in the tank is around 40 when warm (or higher on a really hot day and if no filters, coolers etc are fitted) and at sheer temperatures your looking at possibly 100 or higher. unfortunately a viscosity on a multigrade (unlike density) isn't linear as the molecules will react and have a higher viscostiy at a higher temperature than they would at 40.

The viscosity comparisons at 40 and 100 are interesting though, comparing the 10-30 to the 10-40 show a different viscosity at 40C, so the molecules are already at their full potential viscosity at this point, if not the viscosity whilst might not be the same (10w) would be similar.

Umfortunately you seldom see sheer strength and oxidation values...


Are you sure about that ?
Perhaps it is the cooler climate but down here an oil tank temperature of around 80c is closer to the mark.
The oil coolers that were fashionable ( yes I had one or two fitted ) in the 70's & 80's had bypass valves that were set a lot higher than 40c
Some long a very infromative post from Gerry Bristow ( ex BP & Duckhams ) on Britiron convinced me their only real benefit was the 150ml increase in oil volume.
From what I was taught about oil fortifiers, they do not actually get thicker as the temperature rises but the viscosities get lower slower.
Thus a 10w40 only thins down the same viscosity as a strait 40w @ 100 c which while being higher than a strait 10w @ 100 c but not higher than a 10w at 40 c

The hot 10w40 I pump out of mower engines is nowhere as thick as the cold oil at room temp ( which can be 40c ) that replaces it .
This becomes very apparent when in a fit of absent mindedness an engine gets its 1800 ml of oil added twice so the excess cold oil has to get pumped out.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #751395
10/03/18 4:45 pm
10/03/18 4:45 pm
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Posts: 5,082
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Based my findings on oil tests on a hot engine on a hot british day after a good brisk ride, pre fitting the oil cooler was around 48C and post was closer to 40C, However I do agree that the extra volume of oil will do more for its cooling than the cooler itself, how fast the oil is allowed to flow through it will also make a difference there. The bypass valve on mine is much higher than 40, possibly 80 or 90 like yours, but the filters/cooler/etc are post engine, so the oil is cooler in the tank and not being cooled before it flows into the engine.

I see what your saying about the viscosity/flow rate getting slower, however when subjected to extremes and the additive pack breaks down it no longer returns to its original state...


I've pinched this from the net...

Quote
"VISCOSITY INDEX IMPROVERS
The VI parameter is improved by deliberately adding some chemicals known as additives. Many additives are used in any lubricating oil. One of these additives is VI improvers (VII). These additives are basically organic polymers precisely blended with the base oil to improve the viscosity-temperature characteristics of the lubricant. These polymers are soluble in the base oil. Their molecular weight varies from 103 to 106. These polymer molecules swell in the oil.The increase in viscosity of the polymer is directly dependent on extent of swelling of the polymer by the oil. This swelling increases with the increase in molecular weight of the polymer. These polymers are in the form of a long chain and remain tightly coiled and suspended in the oil at low temperature. As the temperature increases the coil unfolds, volume increases as a result of expansion and the oil gradually becomes thick. This means that thinning effect of the oil is nullified at higher temperature by the addition of VI improvers. Some of these polymers are shown in Figure 2.
These polymers basically tend to improve the viscosity-temperature property of the lubricant as shown in FIG.1. The loss of viscosity with temperature is less pronounced compared to a monograde oil. These polymers are found to be more effective with the increase in molecular weight. However, it is also true that these high molecular weight polymers breakdown under high shear stress. Hence, a performance balance must be very carefully sought out in selecting these polymers. A very high or very low molecular weight polymer may not be the most suitable candidate."


Full article

It might be prudent if I state that when a multigrade reaches its optimum operating temperature, it doesn't actually become a 40wt etc but remains a 10/20 (its initial wt) but having the viscosity characteristics of a higher grade oil.

I'll find something on oil recovery also...


beerchug
Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #752818
10/15/18 4:08 am
10/15/18 4:08 am
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NickL Offline
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I like to see oil at above 60 deg C, that way i know it's flowing and cooling the motor well.
But then, all of my engines should have blown up years ago as i only ever run cheap mineral 20/50 oil.


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Re: Oil Pressure [Re: NickL] #752845
10/15/18 10:04 am
10/15/18 10:04 am
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Posts: 5,082
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Originally Posted by NickL

But then, all of my engines should have blown up years ago as i only ever run cheap mineral 20/50 oil.



Taking it a bit too far Nick, I was discussing using too high a viscosity is not a cure for an oil which will break down at temperatures above its limit.

Originally Posted by NickL
I like to see oil at above 60 deg C, that way i know it's flowing and cooling the motor well.


Thats the bit i was reffering to.

If mineral oil was totally shite then think of the law suits the oil companies would be facing. Regardless of which modern oils are better than what was produced 50 years ago, regardless of the brand. How long it lasts under certain stress and level of lubricity, componant protection and oil life are all down to the quality and oil type.

But personally I'd rather use the best I can for my engines.


beerchug
Re: Oil Pressure [Re: Allan Gill] #752852
10/15/18 11:25 am
10/15/18 11:25 am
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Posts: 258
Monclova
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Good God, talk about complicating the obvious. This thread has become so convoluted who would bother to read this let alone keep changing his own oil after this. I have heard it all on BSA's Change this, do this, change the relief valve. Ive said it before and I'll say it once more. Turn the crank to true tight specs, and tight on the bush. Later D or DD pump, new spring in the relief valve, no galling or marks. Correct oil pressure every time. Just finished one up over the summer, nothing elaborate in the bottom end, just clearances that aren't a tad loose that it'll get by. Make them up to specs on the tighter side. Try it, you'll like it.

Re: Oil Pressure [Re: eelmgren] #752940
10/15/18 10:10 pm
10/15/18 10:10 pm
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NickL Offline
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No offence meant chaps, just me being me. (You should know that by now.........)

This gear is what i'll use now as valvoline have changed their cheap classic gear to an SJ from SG.


TYPICAL DATA semi-syn 10w-50
Density at 15°C, kg/L 0.865
Viscosity, Kinematic, cSt at 40°C 133
Viscosity, Kinematic, cSt at 100°C 19.1
Viscosity Index 163
Cold Cranking Viscosity, cP at -25°C 6270
Ca content, Mass % 0.242
Zinc, Mass % 0.111
Phosphorus, Mass % 0.1
Sulphated Ash, Mass % 0.98
Total Base Number (TBN) 9.7

Last edited by NickL; 10/15/18 10:55 pm.

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