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Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746398 08/22/18 4:44 am
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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Gavin, I have a strobe light and got a face full of oil when I dynamically timed it, but that was when I rebuilt the bike a couple of years back and that was with the wrong sized pistons so it needed to be retimed. It was on my list of things to do along with balancing the carbs but it won't start at all now so I can't do any of that until I get it to run. I reset the pazon to the "get it running" spot in hopes that it would get it running, it has not. I checked the fuel level (hose on pilot jet leveled to the pip on the float cover) with the old style floats and it was a little higher than the pip. Installed the new floats after doing some clearance work to them so they didn't get stuck anymore but it was late and didnt check the float level. And since I tickled the carbs it won't be an accurate level until I drain some fuel out.


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Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746442 08/22/18 3:12 pm
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gavin eisler Offline
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If your carbs are out of whack to the point it wont start.

lets review the last changes.

This after lowering the needle one notch

"Took it out for a short ride tonight, it seemed to run much better until wot where it would spit and slug a little bit. I'm guessing I need to get a larger main jet? Digging through my random bag of parts I did find a 300 main jet, probably to big but it leads me to believe it was running a 300 main jet back in the 70s when it was last on the road before I acquired it. I think I may order a 280, 290, and 300 main jets and try them out. Or if I install a baffle of some sort will the stock jetting work?"

presumably lowering the needle cleaned up the middrange but left the top end weak, Bigger MJs needed to clean up top end.


"Went for ride the other night and when I got home she wouldn’t idle. I’ve only been able to get her to run for a few seconds before it dies, if I rev it beyond 2000rpm it will stay running but close the throttle and she dies. After it dies it just shoots flames out of the carbs or backfires out of the exhaust, but usually a from the carb. I’m lost as to why since it’s never had issues starting 1st kick even with pistons that were .020 under the bore. "

As other s have said , air leaks? Are you sure, if the carb bodies are old then its almost a cert that the flanges have been overtightened and bent at some point in their history. Google "Brit bike John Healy carb flange straighteming ", to get the lowdown.
its best to press these straight with a special tool, its all in JHs excellent info. If at some point in their histtory the carb flanges were warped then filed back to flat, they are going to warp again easily and the throttle chamber will remain distorted.

if its not leaking air, spitting back and flames suggests poor timing or low battery voltage, dying battery which comes alive when revs pickup . or when you messed with the carb screws the throttle stop screws were backed out to the point the slides are shut.
look in the carbs , there should be a "peep" showing beneath the slide. As a starting point try raising the slides two full truns on the screws from dead shut. Set your pilot air screws somewhere between 1 .5 and 2 turns out ( it did run with it at 2 turns out before you mentioned)

"Still not running. I had fuel flowing out of the pilot jets when I removed the cap so I didn't go any further, but since it isn't running tomorrow they'll come out and get looked over, maybe replaced if I have another set (probably not, will order some though.) The plugs are wet with fuel so I know fuel is going into the cylinder.

I have spark, I have compression, I have fuel, valve clearances are correct, timing is set per Pazons initial settings, carbs are tight with new gaskets and orings."

Fuel running out of the pilot jets is not proof they are properly clear, .
Monoblocs dont have handy float bowl drain like concs, but they do have MJ inspection hexes, when you remove the MJ cover ( carefully , dont spill) , pout their contents onto a white plate, tells us what you see. its the lowest point, water and muck gather there.
Remove the pilolt jets for close inspection under a glass, check they are clear , its OK to poke them with copper wire, a strand from a multi core wont do any harm if you dont have a correct # series drill., only do this with the jets removed, if done in situ the debris is still there just pushed back to re appear later. While the jets are out. with an air line and fine nozzle blow through the small holes in the front of the bell mouth lower lip, try to catch what comes out. My experience with old Monos is a bit out of date , but I remember finding blocked needle jet air ways, usually from Brass verdigris. Reverse flush again,, blow through the opposite way did some one say Ultrasonic cleaner, if so use it if available.
if you fancy stripping the carbs totally, be very wary of damaging the jet block gasket, best to leave the jet block in place, everything else is easy to get at / inspect.


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Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746724 08/25/18 6:36 pm
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Any progress?
I assume that no news means not.

I really think the focus on carbs so far may be a red herring.

Especially as it was performing badly, then you reset the ignition to its "get you started setting" and now it doesn't start at all.

I know yours is a Pazon, but when I first put a Boyer on mine, using the the similar initial start setup, it did start reluctantly, and ran very badly, with backfires and spits from the carbs.
I can easily imagine some bikes not even starting at this setting.

So I experimented by altering the stator position. In my case, advancing the timing resulted in the engine running well enough to be able to strobe it properly at high revs.

I can't emphasise enough how important it is that you set the timing right with EI, by ear or whatever just won't do.

Until the above is done, you're wasting time thinking about main jets, pilot jets, slides etc.

As I mentioned previously, as you're running EI, the voltage the system runs at must be maintained at 12V +/- 2V approx for the EI to be happy.
When the battery/system voltage drops significantly, the ignition unit behaves erratically and often causes the symptoms you have described.

If you can remember which way you moved the stator to return to the "start" position, try moving it back. Otherwise, it's trial and error!

Best of luck.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746890 08/27/18 5:41 am
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No real updates. Still not running but Ive been working a lot of overtime this week so haven’t spent much time on this. I did check the voltage, it’s at 12.75 resting and drops to 12.35 when I kick it over. I did pull out the pilot jets and they were clear, also checked the float level and it was spot on with the new floats. But that was as far as I got.

Koan I think your right on timing, it is spitting less now that I went back to pazons suggested start point. My plan is to drain the sump to look for metal (hope to find none) then set the trigger plate back to roughly where it was and see what happens. But that won’t be until later in the week.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747230 08/30/18 4:37 am
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Update -
Success and failure, possible bigger issue. After checking and resetting every carb setting and resetting the timing etc etc etc I was stumped because I couldn't get this thing to run but a few seconds. But it occured to me that it would run after I sprayed the plugs with carb cleaner and wiped them down. It then occurred to me that maybe I should get a plug cleaner and give these plugs a proper blast and clean. She started first kick and I was able to keep it running for a while, so long that I was thinking I'd dynamically time it since it was running really smooth and not walking about. That was until I stuck my hand behind the exhaust to make sure they were both kicking out the same pressure, and to my confusion the left cylinder felt cold while the right was pretty hot. Even more confusing was the big oil slick left on my palm from the left cylinder. Even more puzzling was the fairly good sized puddle of oil forming under the left side of the bike that appears to be coming from the joint at the slip on and from the connection of the pipe at the head. Also, there is oil bubbling up from the head stud in front of the spark plug.

None of this makes any sense, fouled plugs shoudln't have been spitting back into the carbs. There shouldn't be oil in exhaust and there definitely shouldn't be oil bubbling up from the head stud. I annealed the head gasket and sprayed a coat of copper gasket sealer before reassembly, installed new o rings in the little oil holes and torqued everything down to my manuals spec (30 something ftlbs). Head was rebuilt by E&V with no more than 300 miles on it. Guess I'm ordering a new head gasket and try that.

I'm about to kick this bike down the road.

Last edited by redmosquito1; 08/30/18 5:01 am.
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747277 08/30/18 1:33 pm
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Sounds like the sump is full of oil, ., drain it and measure the quantity that comes out.

Did you top up the oil tank before starting,? maybe the oil tank had drained into the sump and now the system is overfull.



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Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747331 08/30/18 8:48 pm
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It’s possible. I haven’t drained the sump since I changed the oil, which was before I started this thread. I really need to pick up one of those sump plates with a drain plug or modify the stock one.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747334 08/30/18 9:19 pm
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Just drained the sump, had a little over 4 ounces (150mL) I say a little over because there is a small amount of oil coating my drain pan and I spilled a small amount pouring it into the measuring cup. manual says to add 1/2 pint of clean oil added to the crank case, so I don’t think that’s my issue.

Next thought is maybe I didn’t anneal the head gasket well enough, but it was cherry red when I heated it and it was coated with copper coat spray. If not that then possibly I torqued the head down to the wrong setting. My manual says 3/8” bolts/nuts get torqued to 25 lb/ft which is what I did in 3 steps.

Last edited by redmosquito1; 08/30/18 9:24 pm.
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747374 08/31/18 6:53 am
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Never added oil to the crank case, but even still that wouldn’t be your problem, it should just smoke it out if too much.

Have you checked your head bolts don’t go all the way and bottom out?

Have you checked your head and cylinder gasket surface is flat, don’t be surprised if your cylinders aren’t.

Also I never had the best of luck with pattern head gaskets, I managed to source some NOS ones, they were a little thicker. Never had any head leaks from anywhere after that. Not even the notorious drain hole leaks.


beerchug
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747405 08/31/18 12:48 pm
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Cherry red is good, Allan makes good points , do a leak down test using compressed air, if the bolts and gasket are good you may have a broken oil ring. Its not unknown for a little oil to find its way up the cylinder head bolts, this usually clears up after a retorque.
However , it is unusual for oil to find its way into the exhaust system in such quantities.
Did you pour oil into the plug holes before start up? Some folk do this , believing they are being good to the motor, result, glazed rings and fouled plugs. The only time to pour oil in is to test for worn rings, comp will come up with added oil.


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Re: Carb setting help [Re: gavin eisler] #747552 09/01/18 3:40 pm
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No oil poured into cylinders. Followed the dry assembly procedure for breaking it in. I’ll do a leakndown test today and see what I find. Probably going to pull the head and re anneal the gasket and see if there is any oils moving between the gasket

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747554 09/01/18 3:56 pm
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Red Mosquito one, I live in Monclova Ohio, how far are you from Toledo? Monclova is a burb of Toledo. If you cant figure it out perhaps I can help. I am a teacher but restore and do rebuilds in the summer. DBA Vintage Restoration. I specialize in Triumph and BSA twins, If your not to far just something to consider. Thanks Tom PS look up Vintage Restoration up on facebook, I have a page and you can look at some of my work.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747566 09/01/18 6:43 pm
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Bit late to the stage, but how about removing the rocker cover and inspecting its underside. Any marks near where the tappets are indicate fouling, this frustrated the f**k out of me when I had it happen to me. Will prevent starting easily with only an exhaust valve not closing properly..


Gavin
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Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747613 09/02/18 6:00 am
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Update after poking around tonight. First while reinstalling the sump cover I managed to snap a stud off, I know how I did it but its still frustrating. I guess its time for a SRM unit with a drain plug and bolts instead of studs.

It is starting first kick again, I'm thinking that when I swapped the floats I was getting to much fuel in and subsequently fouling the plugs. Spark plug cleaner took care of that issue.

Still pissing oil out of the left cylinder, coming out of the header joint to head and where the slip on mounts. on the left cylinder I have 120 psi on cold compression test after 10 kicks, did a leak down test at TDC and was at 30% (in the green on my gauge) and I can't hear any air leaking. When I connect about 60 psi of air hose to the cylinder it rotates the motor. I didn't check the right side for leak down yet because that side seems to be running fine.

Interestingly when I pull the plug wire off the left side I barely notice, plug off the right side and I need to give it serious throttle to keep it going. Clearly the left side is either getting a ton of oil into the cylinder or the carb is way out of whack. At this point I'm thinking oil is getting in there.

Best guess I have is that the head gasket isn't sealing on the left side for some reason. I have a feeling the mass amount of oil dripping out of the pipe is from the return hole and its getting sucked into the cylinder and out the pipe. Unless the valve seal is not there and the guides are toasted I don't see any other way that much oil could possibly get into the cylinder and out the pipe. And since this head was rebuilt by E&V 2 years ago with maybe 300 miles I can confidently say that isn't the issue. I can also say that when I was running .040 over pistons in .060 over bores I never had oil drip out of the exhaust, just a ton of smoke. It has to be coming from somewhere, and thats the best guess I have.

So, off comes the head again for a little look in the coming days. Was really hoping to have a solid running bike for Battle of the Brits show next weekend, turns out the wife planned my daughters first birthday party for that day so I can't go anyways. Still bumming.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747615 09/02/18 6:04 am
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Sloppyoil - youre about 2 hours from me, I'm up in oxford so a quick shot over to 23 and straight down so I may take you up on that offer if I need to. Is your name Tom too?

WBAbojo - I had the valve cover off about a week ago but I didn't see any marks on it. I'm taking the head off probably tomorrow or the next day so I'll look closer and see if there are any there.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747636 09/02/18 2:30 pm
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yes it is. I will be at the battle of the brits too unless of course I get pulled away but I doubt it. I'm not riding though I'm driving, I will have a 97 red mustang SVT Cobra. You could text me and let me know where you are. My Number is on my face book page that I mentioned earlier. Good luck, check your oil pump to make sure it didn't loosen up too.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747664 09/02/18 6:35 pm
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Allan Gill Offline
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Interesting about the pump, if tightened up to the specified 7 ftlb of torque they will work loose( least mine did) so I lock wires mine in place :bigt

Red’: don’t forget to check the barrel face, also the head face... even though it may have been skimmed a barrel out of true will pull the heads face out again. A large (and preferable new) sharpening stone will quickly highlight any high spots, or some Stuart’s micrometer blue with a small piece of glass. But my guess to the problem is that it is sucking in oil under vacuum and very often the centre stud on the head becomes a low spot causing a poor seal.


beerchug
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747672 09/02/18 7:31 pm
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If you have EI its not a good idea to pull plug leads off with the motor running, theres a high risk of spark energy feeding back and disrupting the EI tiny bits. If the plugs are removed and clipped to the motor so they can spark, thats OK, but the spark must be able to jump somewhere.
Allan makes very pertinent points about the barrels.
For the head joint to seal all must be flat, at a push I have lapped the head to the barrel with lapping compound and a figure of 8 motion. plug holes with blue tack firstt to keep grit out. Clean thoroughly before reassembly.
last time I blued the joint and found raised areas around the barrel threads, scraped then re blued, did this a couple of times till the blue took all over.

Also check the head around the bolt / stud mounting holes where the washers bear against the alloy, these areas can distort , usually bellied to wards hole, my head needed 3 of the spot faces truing up, worst one was the centre bolt mount, it was cockeyed.
The only good fix for this is a man with a mill, spot face washer lands back to true level taking off just enough to clean up.
All head fastener washers should be thick types, normal washers wont cut it.
Make sure head bolt holes are not nipped around the top due to distortion, get a drill that fits the undistorted end and use it to clear the nipped top area, if tight this can trick the torque wrench, all going slack after a couple of heat cycles.

Do retorque after a couple of heat cycles, yes it means disturbing the exhaust rockers, , but I find that at least one bolt/ stud will settle , usually more, centre and front last time I did it.


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Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747710 09/03/18 5:28 am
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Sloppyoil - I won't make it to the Battle of the Brits this year, my Daughters 1st birthday party is the same day. Pretty sure I'd be looking for a new house if I skipped that, haha.

Good tip Gavin; I won't be pulling the wires off while running again, I've managed to avoid any damage so far but won't risk it again.

My plan is to check the torque value on all the head bolts/nuts to see if any worked themselves loose. I don't anticipate they did based on how little time was on the bike before it started this issue, if there are any loose I'll retorque and refit everything and run it to see if that fixes the problem. Again, I don't anticipate there being an issue there, so I'll pull the head and have a look at the head gasket and check the flatness of the head and cylinder.

Is it possible to flatten the cylinder in the bike? or am I looking at big problems with getting schmoo into the motor?

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747716 09/03/18 7:35 am
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Forget the head gasket, you are chasing shadows there. The chances of oil leaking into the cylinder in any quantity is almost zero.
You have proved the integrity of the cylinder sealing by a leakdown test.
You have stated one cylinder is cool
You stated pulling the plug lead on that cylinder made almost no difference
What you see leaking is unburnt fuel, that cylinder is either too rich, too lean or not getting a spark (try swapping plugs around)
Are your plugs new or just cleaned up old [***]? Put new plugs in


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Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747747 09/03/18 3:28 pm
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Andy I think your right here on the fuel and not oil. Went out to start tear down and fired it up to let a little fluid come out of header joint and it was marginally clear and went up in flames with a slight touch. I was thinking oil because the stuff coming from further down the pipe is black, but that might be old carbon and oil because it lit off very nicely

Ok, why is it dumping fuel into the cylinder?

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747748 09/03/18 3:33 pm
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As I stated earlier, try new plugs or at least swap the plugs right for left


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Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747756 09/03/18 4:06 pm
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I did that. These plugs have 1 ride of 20 miles on them before they fouled up. Cleaned with the plug cleaner and have swapped plugs with the old plugs and back and forth etc same result.

I lowered the needle to the first notch and it did get hot on the left cylinder and much less fuel/oil came out.

So frustrating

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747796 09/03/18 7:21 pm
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Could be the fueled up side carb has a dodgy float or float valve needle , flooding. have a good look at the float operation, new floats sometimes have left over flashing seems that can catch and prevent proper closure, needle seats can have dirt on them and prevent proper sealing, that sort of thing.


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Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747853 09/04/18 4:17 am
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Gavin that was the side that I checked the float level with the new style floats after reinstalling them and it was right on the pip. I was having issues with the new style as they seemed to be slightly larger than the old style and were getting stuck on the screw boss causing flooding and fuel to spit out the tickler. I removed the injection flash from the float and relieved a little material from the screw boss and that allowed it to work properly. At that point the fuel level was checked and it was on the pip.

I cranked out the air screw and set the needle to the top notch and it seemed to get heat into the cylinder but on idle there was fuel/oil coming from the header again. I'm going to pull that carb off and tear it apart, maybe something got stuck somewhere. I may swap everything over to my other 389 body and see if that helps. If not head will come off and see what I find. Based on my compression and leak down test I don't think there are any issues with anything but the carb, but I'm running out of things to look at.

Anyone know a competent mechanic around the Oxford, MI area? or Metro Detroit? I know about E&V but I'm looking for someone within an hour or less and hes 3+. I'm getting to the throw the towel in point after 2+ years of restoring and 3 years of trying to get it to run right I'm about done dicking with it. How reliable are those repop Concentrics from AMAL? maybe I should switch to those.

Last edited by redmosquito1; 09/04/18 4:20 am.
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