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Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump #747233
08/30/18 5:14 am
08/30/18 5:14 am
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NickL Offline OP
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I see Hepolite are advertising an oil pump for the a65/a50 made from cast iron.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747237
08/30/18 6:08 am
08/30/18 6:08 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,594
Scotland
kommando Offline
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So a Wassell product then, who is going to be the tester?

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747241
08/30/18 6:36 am
08/30/18 6:36 am
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NickL Offline OP
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Good question.......... but these days it should be good even if it's sourced in the fear east, it's all sausage factory stuff now with nc etc.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747270
08/30/18 12:36 pm
08/30/18 12:36 pm
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 344
Forfar, Scotland
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JER.Hill Offline
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Hi

I would have thought that they would have printed some sort of test results, showing flow & pressure verses engine RPM along with the duration of tests!

my tuppence worth

John

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747271
08/30/18 12:40 pm
08/30/18 12:40 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,391
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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Wow, it looks nice in the photo. This should give the folks posting long threads on the topic of poor quality an alternative. IMHO, it is likely better than the SRM alloy replacement. I don't see a direct Hepolite sales link, but Here is one supplier.

https://www.britishbikebits.com/hepolite-oil-pump-bsa-a50-a65-1963-73

Last edited by KC in S.B.; 08/30/18 12:43 pm. Reason: Link

Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747275
08/30/18 1:22 pm
08/30/18 1:22 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,180
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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it certainly has a better finish than the OEM iron pumps externally, I would give it a go , but Ive just refreshed my OEM pump.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747279
08/30/18 2:00 pm
08/30/18 2:00 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,076
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Is it CNC machined billet or is it cast iron???? Didn’t know you could have a billet of a cast item????

KC have you used the SRM pump? There’s a lot of comments over the fact they are made from alloy but I’ve never had a problem. You never hear of A10 pump issues (which is almost identical to the A65 type) and the later pumps are located on Dowls like the SRM Pump.... considering cast iron will warp I feel the dowls make more difference.


beerchug
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Allan Gill] #747283
08/30/18 2:31 pm
08/30/18 2:31 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,110
Stone Creek OH USA
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If cast iron warps with the low flow and pressures involved in a BSA twin......it likely wasn’t very good material to start with.


Never underestimate the human ability to elevate stupid to a whole new level!.
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747296
08/30/18 3:42 pm
08/30/18 3:42 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,874
ca, us
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DMadigan Offline
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"Billet" only means new material, not sourced from some unknown scrap. I do not know of any iron that is not cast unless possibly sintered. Even if the pump were cast in a mold it would have to be machined since it could not be cast to the required tolerances.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747298
08/30/18 3:55 pm
08/30/18 3:55 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,210
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747308
08/30/18 6:20 pm
08/30/18 6:20 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 254
Duesseldorf/Germany
Phil in Germany Offline
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Duesseldorf/Germany
Hmmmmm... IME the SRM oil pumps for the A 65 are absolutely brilliant. My Lightning does not wet sump at all over winter, pressure is great.

At least in my experience Hepolite aka Wassell is a company with a questionable quality management resp. quality control.
I myself, I shall not buy a core engine element like an oil pump which in case f***ed up the engine completely from a maker that has proven to be unable to produce a simple thing as needle jets. I had a set of them and returned them to my BI dealer as the bike pinked like crazy after installation. On a basic measurement it turned out that all of his wonderful Wassell needle jets differently stamped from .105" to .107" had a diameter of a tad under .100".

There is nothing wrong with the New Hepolite Pistons, all Wassell does is buying JCC Pistons and AFAIK rings from Hastings and pack them in a funky yellow cardboard box. Manufacturing an oil pump is of course no rocket science but more complex than packing pistons and rings or boring needle jets to size.


FWIW

Cheers!

Ph., who has had his share of experience with a MCA pump which was not brilliant either


Best regards
Phil
Duesseldorf/Germany
'62 A 65 Star (disassembled)
'69 A 65 Lightning
'71 A 65 Firebird
'75 T 160
'84 Yamaha SR 500
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747344
08/30/18 11:04 pm
08/30/18 11:04 pm
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NickL Offline OP
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I have recently worked on a bike with an SRM pump fitted and yes, it is a nice bit of kit, good pressure etc.
I acquired the old pump off the bike from the owner and rebuilt it. It was a DD pump and works very well, no need to change it really, just a bit of elbow grease.

My own preference for material though would be cast iron for an oil pump, just a personal thing,
i'll reserve judgement on the Wassel unit until i've actually seen/used one, which may be never.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747348
08/30/18 11:47 pm
08/30/18 11:47 pm
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,898
Elburn, Ill. USA
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Irish Swede Offline
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Cast Iron needs to "cure" after coming from the mould box.
It either has to be annealed for a certain time in a red-hot atmosphere (an oven),
or left standing in open air for a while.

Henry Ford used to "cure" engine blocks by piling them out in the weather for a period of time
before allowing them to be machined.

My understanding is that the "curing" process is a way to relieve stresses within the castings.

This may not be a problem with castings as small as BSA oil pumps,
However.....
Who knows?

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: DMadigan] #747378
08/31/18 8:35 am
08/31/18 8:35 am
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Sydney Australia
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
"Billet" only means new material, not sourced from some unknown scrap. I do not know of any iron that is not cast unless possibly sintered. Even if the pump were cast in a mold it would have to be machined since it could not be cast to the required tolerances.


Billet means absolutely nothing.
You can make a cast billet full of gas holes from primary alloy or a top quality one properly degassed from scrap and grain modified or even double vacuum melted and inoculated one.
Basically what they are saying is it was machined from a solid lump of material which in may caes produces a product substantially inferiour to a cast & machined product.
Metals are very much like timber, the strength is all in the direction and size of the grains

A billet can be forged
A billet can be cast
A billet can be extruded.

Each one will have vastly different properties even if made from identical alloy.

If an iron casting is moulded properly you can knock them out today , machine them tomorrow and they will give you a long & trouble free service life.
It is all in the art of making a proper pattern with chills & shuts in the right places then pouring good clean metal at the right temperature.

However in a full on production situation, where time is money, a lot of short cuts get taken and work arounds are needed particularly if you are green sand moulding.
If you are shell moulding it is not imporant because you are not going to reuse the mounding sands in situ ( yes it does go out & get reprocessed ).


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Phil in Germany] #747379
08/31/18 8:41 am
08/31/18 8:41 am
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Posts: 3,876
Sydney Australia
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Originally Posted by Phil in Germany
Hmmmmm... IME the SRM oil pumps for the A 65 are absolutely brilliant. My Lightning does not wet sump at all over winter, pressure is great.

At least in my experience Hepolite aka Wassell is a company with a questionable quality management resp. quality control.
I myself, I shall not buy a core engine element like an oil pump which in case f***ed up the engine completely from a maker that has proven to be unable to produce a simple thing as needle jets. I had a set of them and returned them to my BI dealer as the bike pinked like crazy after installation. On a basic measurement it turned out that all of his wonderful Wassell needle jets differently stamped from .105" to .107" had a diameter of a tad under .100".

There is nothing wrong with the New Hepolite Pistons, all Wassell does is buying JCC Pistons and AFAIK rings from Hastings and pack them in a funky yellow cardboard box. Manufacturing an oil pump is of course no rocket science but more complex than packing pistons and rings or boring needle jets to size.


FWIW

Cheers!

Ph., who has had his share of experience with a MCA pump which was not brilliant either


I am with you on this one.
Wassel parts have been really on the nose.
If they were pumping out 1/2 million units a year then the number of failures that I have come across might just be considered acceptable
However the large number of failures indicated bottom drawer quality or zero developement and dubious quality control.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Irish Swede] #747380
08/31/18 8:52 am
08/31/18 8:52 am
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Sydney Australia
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Originally Posted by Irish Swede
Cast Iron needs to "cure" after coming from the mould box.
It either has to be annealed for a certain time in a red-hot atmosphere (an oven),
or left standing in open air for a while.

Henry Ford used to "cure" engine blocks by piling them out in the weather for a period of time
before allowing them to be machined.

My understanding is that the "curing" process is a way to relieve stresses within the castings.

This may not be a problem with castings as small as BSA oil pumps,
However.....
Who knows?



Iron castings have sort of evolved just a tad since the days of "yeah colour looks good tip it out"
Spectral chemistry has made control on chemical composition 100 times better than Henry could have dreamed of and I am talking Royce ( perfect vehicles ) not Ford ( cheapest vehicle )
Thermionics have allowed amazing control over the cooling so it is not uncommon to have a production line where the parts are knocked out, trimmed , blasted ( or tumbled ) then strait onto the machining line.
Back in the immediate post WWII days it was all about speed so castings would be knocked out of the mould while they were still liquid inside, they would then continue to solidify which puts a lot of stress into the casting.
Properly designed these shrinkage stresses add to the strength of the casting .'
At the worst a casting needs to be normalised or just left to sit for a while ( Ford case ) to allow them to shrink & warp so when machined the machined surfaces will remain true.

Malleable iron castings ( typically crankshafts ) are good to use right out of the mould


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747394
08/31/18 11:47 am
08/31/18 11:47 am
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,898
Elburn, Ill. USA
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Irish Swede Offline
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I worked in a malleable iron foundry. The castings came "right out of the moulds," and directly into the annealing ovens, where they were cooked for 12 to 24 hours, depending on size, to remove brittleness.

Out of the oven they cooled, then were inspected for cracks. Once, a crack was spotted in one of the larger hollow castings. Our boss handed two of us a sledge hammer and we took turns beating it until it was nearly flat.

The crack never expanded.


Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747401
08/31/18 12:29 pm
08/31/18 12:29 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,180
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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"There is nothing wrong with the New Hepolite Pistons, all Wassell does is buying JCC Pistons and AFAIK rings from Hastings and pack them in a funky yellow cardboard box. Manufacturing an oil pump is of course no rocket science but more complex than packing pistons and rings or boring needle jets to size."

recent experience at the LBS with new Hepolite rings for a T100R top end rebuild was not good, oil rings would not fit, spring expander was too long.

MCA valves were a thou oversize, wassels pushrods were the wrong length.
LF Harris to the rescue, buy cheap buy twice.
Even the AMAL premiers needed tweaking , the float SS hinge on one carb was too loose and prevented correct float operation.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 08/31/18 12:32 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747419
08/31/18 2:57 pm
08/31/18 2:57 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,076
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Interesting about the AMAL Prem' Gavin, the SS rod should be slightly proud of the bowl so that it is trapped by the gasket.... but im assuming you mean the curled over metal on the float itself?


beerchug
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747450
08/31/18 7:43 pm
08/31/18 7:43 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 806
San Luis Obispo, CA
Richard Phillips Offline
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San Luis Obispo, CA
I think its great, Wassel has done a great job of reverse engineering one of the most critical components of our machines and as it says on the package Made in England. Nothing against SRM I use their pumps along with original cast iron and DD pumps on my engine builds. If I didn't have enough pumps for my next four builds I would buy one of these pumps in a heart beat.
I also think its great this unit has hit our forum. All the experts get to weigh in with metallurgical factoids and figures, manufacturing techniques, volumetric statics questions, that impresses me to no end. We really have a cadre of real brilliance at our finger tips.

By the way, not to high jack the post any further than it is Wassel makes an excellent electronic ignition unit called The Vape. It takes less electricity to power, the unit is fully encapsulated and the ignition curve mimics a point set. Look into them, JRC has them

I was once a member of the Optimist Club in college. Their motto: "The Optimist moves forward, The Cynical stand still, the Pessimist reverts!'

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747452
08/31/18 7:51 pm
08/31/18 7:51 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,180
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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"but im assuming you mean the curled over metal on the float itself?"
Yes, the fit was too loose.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747455
08/31/18 8:10 pm
08/31/18 8:10 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,594
Scotland
kommando Offline
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Wassell do not make the VAPE, they have them made by a good company in Eastern Europe, Did they get lucky or have they improved is the question that needs answering.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Richard Phillips] #747458
08/31/18 8:25 pm
08/31/18 8:25 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,629
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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Originally Posted by Richard Phillips

By the way, not to high jack the post any further than it is Wassel makes an excellent electronic ignition unit called The Vape.

As already said, they are distributors for it.

Quote
It takes less electricity to power,

No it doesn’t. It uses over 2 amps.


Quote
the unit is fully encapsulated


Yes. The stator and the black box appear to be more robust than other systems I’ve seen.

Quote
the ignition curve mimics a point set.


You should be more cynical about sales talk. The curve mimics an analogue Boyer: you set timing at 5,000 rpm.

The Wassell/Vape system works well on my bike and it’s very cheap. Only done about 1,000 miles but it looks hopeful.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747460
08/31/18 8:55 pm
08/31/18 8:55 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 878
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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I think whats important here is to remember that Wassell are not actually a manufacturing company and everything they sell is subcontracted to other companies, usually in India, China, Taiwan etc. I can imagine that contracts would be awarded to companies already in the business of producing similar components such as JCC and Vape.

The main issue I see is how Wassell specify the requirement for new oil pumps, pistons & rings etc. to their suppliers and how these components are subsequently QA tested and delivered back to Wassell and then their customers. Clearly there is huge scope for getting things wrong along the way, but I suppose we should at least be thankful that new replacement parts are being made.

Whether or not the Wassell pump turns out to be good or bad remains to be seen, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747468
08/31/18 9:52 pm
08/31/18 9:52 pm
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Posts: 2,898
Elburn, Ill. USA
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Irish Swede Offline
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Who dares to be first to risk his engine as the "test case?"

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747473
08/31/18 10:27 pm
08/31/18 10:27 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,180
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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"and how these components are subsequently QA tested and delivered back to Wassell and then their customers."
At best Wassels look at it and say, yeh that'll do. Wassels have no idea about quality control, its cheap, sometimes it fits, sometimes it doesnt.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747479
08/31/18 11:10 pm
08/31/18 11:10 pm
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NickL Offline OP
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I think we're all jumping the gun here, if the actual manufacturer is a half decent well equipped factory, the product should be good.
As you say, JCC, Hastings and Vape are good manufacturers and supply a good product, Wassel only act as a post box, i've seen
good stuff and bad from their contracted suppliers, i'll reserve judgement until i see one.

As far as 'daring to try one' if i did buy one i would examine it and test it before fitting anyway, same as with anything like that.
Interesting that Gavin had trouble with the AMAL carbs, that same bike (with the SRM pump) had problems with the new Amals.
The float levels were miles too high, they were brand new as well. Not just Wassel's quality control that's lacking eh?

Last edited by NickL; 09/01/18 12:45 am.

No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747481
08/31/18 11:24 pm
08/31/18 11:24 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,210
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

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Based off what I see in regards to Hepolite oil pumps, I see a very high quality part. If I had an A65 engine that I was building I would put a new Hepolite oil pump in but that's my personal opinion.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747651
09/02/18 3:51 pm
09/02/18 3:51 pm
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Posts: 258
Monclova
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Monclova
cant wait to see one

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: C.B.S] #747663
09/02/18 6:24 pm
09/02/18 6:24 pm
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Posts: 5,076
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Originally Posted by C.B.S
Based off what I see in regards to Hepolite oil pumps, I see a very high quality part. If I had an A65 engine that I was building I would put a new Hepolite oil pump in but that's my personal opinion.


Have you had one in your hands?


beerchug
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747800
09/03/18 7:53 pm
09/03/18 7:53 pm
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England
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I was delighted to spot the Hepolite pumps on sale, even if my wallet wasn't keen on parting with £300+
What a pity that they come from a source with a questionable quality record.

Noting that the retail price isn't any cheaper than the tarted up SRM unit, wouldn't it be possible for someone with a good quality control regime to produce a good iron body pump for the same sort of money ?

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Allan Gill] #747885
09/04/18 3:01 pm
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Lancaster, California
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Originally Posted by C.B.S
Based off what I see in regards to Hepolite oil pumps, I see a very high quality part. If I had an A65 engine that I was building I would put a new Hepolite oil pump in but that's my personal opinion.


Have you had one in your hands?



I stated I have one... and took photos


Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: ferretjuggler] #747980
09/05/18 1:00 pm
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Originally Posted by ferretjuggler
Noting that the retail price isn't any cheaper than the tarted up SRM unit, wouldn't it be possible for someone with a good quality control regime to produce a good iron body pump for the same sort of money ?


Like who? Who else is actually investing hard cash into the industry these days, and prepared to put stock on the shelf? You can't buy a pump from SRM today, because they don't have any. Same applies to buying a 930 Premier from AMAL, or a new Chrome Rim from Central Wheel....it's just the way it is, unfortunately!

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: TripleTown] #747992
09/05/18 3:23 pm
09/05/18 3:23 pm
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Understood, IME the always changing demand for and the limited numbers of sales has brought companies like SRM or Burlen to a point where they produce parts in batches that will have to be sold off prior to the new batch to be produced. That's fair enough from point of view as stock on the shelf is expensive.
This is more straightforward for BSA unit twin pumps. Btw. SRM state on their homepage that a new batch is on its way and should be available in September.
I do not fully understand Burlen's policy as the Premier carbs are suitable for more bikes than just BSA twins. IMHO they opened up a market for Wassell with their AMAL clones due to the fact that some people were fed up by waiting for the AMAL carb to be available/produced by Burlen. I once waited 4 months for a set of 930 Concentrics. At that time Wassell Evolution carbs more or less equivalent to Premiers were readily available at various dealers. Due to my own experience with their carb-related products I'll stay away from them for sure. But an awful lot of people are hesitating less also taking the significantly lower price into account.

FWIW

Cheers!

Ph.



Best regards
Phil
Duesseldorf/Germany
'62 A 65 Star (disassembled)
'69 A 65 Lightning
'71 A 65 Firebird
'75 T 160
'84 Yamaha SR 500
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: TripleTown] #748000
09/05/18 4:35 pm
09/05/18 4:35 pm
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
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Originally Posted by C.B.S
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Originally Posted by C.B.S
Based off what I see in regards to Hepolite oil pumps, I see a very high quality part. If I had an A65 engine that I was building I would put a new Hepolite oil pump in but that's my personal opinion.


Have you had one in your hands?



I stated I have one... and took photos



Sorry didn't depict that from what you wrote, assumed you had seen other sellers web links... As you have one, who else would be better to fit one to their bike and give a road test performance....


Originally Posted by TripleTown
Originally Posted by ferretjuggler
Noting that the retail price isn't any cheaper than the tarted up SRM unit, wouldn't it be possible for someone with a good quality control regime to produce a good iron body pump for the same sort of money ?


Like who? Who else is actually investing hard cash into the industry these days, and prepared to put stock on the shelf? You can't buy a pump from SRM today, because they don't have any. Same applies to buying a 930 Premier from AMAL, or a new Chrome Rim from Central Wheel....it's just the way it is, unfortunately!



Noted also as fettetjuggler, with VAT the SRM pump is around £350 GBP, however this does include a gasket (which actually fits without blinding any holes - thanks to DoubleDiamond there) tab washer and new worm drive, I'm told they supply the worm drive as like all gears they should be replaced in pairs... Taking that into account the price is probably identical to the Wassal version for the pump alone. I'd have thought Wassel would have entered with a lower - more competitive price to capture sales over the SRM unit confused however personally I'll keep my money and give it to SRM for the time being, had plenty good service from the current unit and have another for the racer project already.


beerchug
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748010
09/05/18 6:38 pm
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Quote
I'd have thought Wassel would have entered with a lower - more competitive price to capture sales over the SRM unit


Totally agree with that Allen, the SRM is a proven unit whereas the Wassel is something of an unknown quality at the moment.

If anyone does buy one, it would be interesting if they could disassemble it, check the tolerances and general build quality etc. This might then help others in deciding which pump to buy.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Allan Gill] #748031
09/05/18 9:12 pm
09/05/18 9:12 pm
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Originally Posted by C.B.S
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
[quote=C.B.S]Based off what I see in regards to Hepolite oil pumps, I see a very high quality part. If I had an A65 engine that I was building I would put a new Hepolite oil pump in but that's my personal opinion.


Have you had one in your hands?



I stated I have one... and took photos



Sorry didn't depict that from what you wrote, assumed you had seen other sellers web links... As you have one, who else would be better to fit one to their bike and give a road test performance....


Nope, those where my links

I'm sure someone building an A50 or A65 would be delighted to try a new oil pump. Cheers

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: gunner] #748036
09/05/18 10:25 pm
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Originally Posted by gunner
Quote
I'd have thought Wassel would have entered with a lower - more competitive price to capture sales over the SRM unit


Totally agree with that Allen, the SRM is a proven unit whereas the Wassel is something of an unknown quality at the moment.

If anyone does buy one, it would be interesting if they could disassemble it, check the tolerances and general build quality etc. This might then help others in deciding which pump to buy.



If i was coming into the market with a pump made of the correct material for the job, i'd ask the going rate at least for the product.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748104
09/06/18 9:57 am
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Originally Posted by NickL
Originally Posted by gunner
Quote
I'd have thought Wassel would have entered with a lower - more competitive price to capture sales over the SRM unit


Totally agree with that Allen, the SRM is a proven unit whereas the Wassel is something of an unknown quality at the moment.

If anyone does buy one, it would be interesting if they could disassemble it, check the tolerances and general build quality etc. This might then help others in deciding which pump to buy.



If i was coming into the market with a pump made of the correct material for the job, i'd ask the going rate at least for the product.


I'd suggest that the material cost of close grained cast iron, would be far higher than alloy, which is probably why SRM went the alloy route in the first place. That being said, I like the SRM pump.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748132
09/06/18 3:34 pm
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I cannot think (do not take that out of context) of any Japanese motor that uses a cast iron pump body. They are all cast aluminum and mostly with steel gerotors. They have many more pressure fed plain bearings than an A65.
The last time this pump discussion came up I made a higher volume gerotor pump with spur gear drive from stock components which brings the cost down. There was little interest in it.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: DMadigan] #748151
09/06/18 6:43 pm
09/06/18 6:43 pm
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
I cannot think (do not take that out of context) of any Japanese motor that uses a cast iron pump body. They are all cast aluminum and mostly with steel gerotors. They have many more pressure fed plain bearings than an A65.
The last time this pump discussion came up I made a higher volume gerotor pump with spur gear drive from stock components which brings the cost down. There was little interest in it.



did you give a price though, i thought the interest was there..


beerchug
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: DMadigan] #748185
09/06/18 11:10 pm
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
I cannot think (do not take that out of context) of any Japanese motor that uses a cast iron pump body. They are all cast aluminum and mostly with steel gerotors. They have many more pressure fed plain bearings than an A65.
The last time this pump discussion came up I made a higher volume gerotor pump with spur gear drive from stock components which brings the cost down. There was little interest in it.



I accept that later designs are made of ally, but they are not built in the fashion of a beezer gear pump.

As for your gerotor setup........
That's not true David, i offered to actually buy one, never heard any more of it.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748206
09/07/18 3:23 am
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True Nick, I think you were the only one interested in buying one. I do not have a price for producing them, I only made a test piece. I do not have a running A65 to test one on and I cannot sell them without it.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: TripleTown] #748214
09/07/18 7:26 am
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Quote
I'd suggest that the material cost of close grained cast iron, would be far higher than alloy, which is probably why SRM went the alloy route in the first place. That being said, I like the SRM pump.


Grey cast iron is the cheapest engineering metal on the planet about 1/4 the price of aluminium
The casting method for grey cast iron ( green sand moulding ) is also cheaper than for aluminium.
Grey cast iron also machines much easier ( thus cheaper ) than aluminium.

So the metal is cheaper to buy, the casting is cheaper to do and the machining is cheaper so one could only gues that either they are all made 1 at a time by a 1st class machinist or Wassel are making a massive profit.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: DMadigan] #748216
09/07/18 7:31 am
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Quote
The last time this pump discussion came up I made a higher volume gerotor pump with spur gear drive from stock components which brings the cost down. There was little interest in it.


Yep every one want to whinge & bitch about oil pumps till you ask them to open their wallets , then they go crawl off into the corner.
Many times I have noted that British bike riders are the most myserable tight fisted motorcyclists on the planet & BSA riders are the worst of them.

25 year as Club Secretary and not once did a single person ask "who has the best……….?" or even "is there a better ……….?"


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Trevor
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: BSA_WM20] #748221
09/07/18 7:55 am
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Ah , Trevor, would love to have a beer or three with you over a yarn one day ! Would you be attending the International BSA Rally at Halls Gap ? Near where I live.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: BSA_WM20] #748235
09/07/18 10:45 am
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To BSA_WM20:

Trevor, If you think BSA owners are "cheap " when it comes to money, you never met USA Harley riders.

All the money in the world to waste on chrome do-dads to overload and disfigure their "Milwaukee Vibrators," but how they whine and cry when it comes into the shop for repairs!

Often their solution to this is to buy a new hammer, a cheap screwdriver (of the wrong size), an adjustable wrench, a case of cheap beer, and begin "fixing" it themselves, usually with disasterous (and EXPENSIVE) results.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: BSA_WM20] #748264
09/07/18 6:41 pm
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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Quote
The last time this pump discussion came up I made a higher volume gerotor pump with spur gear drive from stock components which brings the cost down. There was little interest in it.


Yep every one want to whinge & bitch about oil pumps till you ask them to open their wallets , then they go crawl off into the corner.
Many times I have noted that British bike riders are the most myserable tight fisted motorcyclists on the planet & BSA riders are the worst of them.

25 year as Club Secretary and not once did a single person ask "who has the best……….?" or even "is there a better ……….?"


Nick wasn't the only one, I am not one to skimp on a project, either it doesn't get built or it gets built in the best way possible/best materials etc... the subject became inconclusive and like most things drifted into the ether. Unlike Wassel, who are notorious for selling sh**e, I have yet to hear a bad thing about Davids mechanical offerings... The starter motor for the Triples has a lot of people talking and from what I have seen starts a rocket 3 like a breeze. (unlike the OEM Lucas type)


beerchug
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: DMadigan] #748300
09/08/18 1:41 am
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
True Nick, I think you were the only one interested in buying one. I do not have a price for producing them, I only made a test piece. I do not have a running A65 to test one on and I cannot sell them without it.



If you want me to put that device on my bike to test it, just let me know.
My bike having the modified relief setup may be a benefit as i know you were a little concerned about volume being very high.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748304
09/08/18 1:59 am
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Whilst i agree with Trevor's take on the average britbike owner, it should be realised that a huge amount of absolute crap
is sold for very high prices. Just paying top dollar doesn't mean the product is any better. I've bought things like fork legs,
bearings, valves, gaskets, carb parts etc at various dealers and paid much higher prices for them, only to find they are no
better than cheap ones. In fact the cheap ones were in some cases better. I was very loathe to use JCC pistons 15+ years
ago as they were cheap, in fact they are very good and i've used many sets since including in my own bikes.
When i look for a product, i tend to look for value for money. Lots of expensive gear isn't!
When it comes to something like an oil pump, i've yet to come across a beezer one i couldn't rebuild to a satisfactory level,
so purchasing a new one has never really been required. I have however bought and fitted a couple of new triumph ones over
the years.
I doubt the SRM pump is cast, it's more likely machined from bar stock. There is a fair bit of work in an oil pump however it's made
especially in small numbers so i've never thought the price was all that high for the unit complete with gears and all. It's just
that being a stupid idiot, i take the time to rebuild old ones. If i worked out the hours spent, a new one is much cheaper.

Last edited by NickL; 09/08/18 2:36 am.

No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Triless] #748327
09/08/18 6:55 am
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We have a van booked on site plus one at the Halls Gap down the road plus a "villa" cause Pete the Prez can't live without expresso coffee.

But on the subject of cheapness.
When Halls Gap was first confirmed as the destination, I did a search to see what was available there as the actual grounds had not been announced.
There were 48 booking that day at the Halls Creek Van Park, so I booked a van there assuming it was the venue.
The ParkGate OTOH only showed 1 booking that weekend so the assumption that the venue was the Halls Gap Van park looked good.
But no there were 48 bookings at Halls Gap park cause it was $ 500 cheaper over the full week.
AFAIK Halls Gap park sold out well before the Park Gate.
BSA riders cheap ?

So yes we will be there I will be coming with Shane ( see the Who Is In, thread on the international board ) and we will be there Thursday for dinner , we hope.
Originally he was expecting 4 or 5 riders from the USA & Peter another Budwiser drinker but that is down to 2 now so we actually will have some spare beds.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 09/08/18 6:57 am.

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Trevor
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748329
09/08/18 7:14 am
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Quote
I doubt the SRM pump is cast, it's more likely machined from bar stock. There is a fair bit of work in an oil pump however it's made
especially in small numbers so i've never thought the price was all that high for the unit complete with gears and all. It's just
that being a stupid idiot, i take the time to rebuild old ones. If i worked out the hours spent, a new one is much cheaper.


never having had one in my hands , no idea if they are machined from wrought stock, from a cast billet or from a forged or cast blank.
Casting is the cheapest method of forming metal.

Maching from a forged blank is the most expensive.

Modern multi axis CNC maching is quick & good but very expensive in both materials & machining, particularly when you are maching a part to replace a casting, you are spending a lot of time & money to turn solid metal into swarf and that is just for the body . People forget these machines cost millions so are generally leased and the maintenance costs are horrific.
We ssee a vidoe of them turning a $ 200 lump of steel into a crankshaft is 15 minues and think gees that was quick & cheap without realizing the machine costs $ 100 / hr sitting on the fllor doing nothing & another $ 300/ hr when being operated.
Much more efficient to start with a hollow bodied casting then machine to size.
That is why they were cast in zinc in the first place.
Zinc castings hold dimension much better than aluminium so can be virtually cast to size


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Trevor
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748371
09/08/18 4:24 pm
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When I had to start making new triple clutch housings for fitting the starter I had two choices, machine from solid or cast and machine. Sand casting was out because of the low numbers and probably because I wanted to make the mold myself ( I think they make much more from the mold than pouring metal) so it was investment casting. The quote for the mold was $12k and $200 each piece. Although they would have let me make the mold the cost of the casting plus machining cost the same as machining from solid (12" round, 3-1/2" thick), plus I could have smaller batches made. Making large quantities by sand casting and machining it cheapest but not for small quantities. Material cost is small compared to machine time (aluminum was around $2.50/lb before our brilliant leader decided to tax imports so, of course, all the american sources raised their prices. Capitaism at its best.).
I doubt the volume is there to justify casting the iron pump. From the pictures the SRM pump is machined from solid as there is no advantage to machining a casting all over relative to machining from solid.
I bought the CNC mill used and refurbished it so it does not cost anything to sit there. The shop that produces my parts gives me a good rate.
Nick, if you want to test one I can make another and send it, I only ask that you report your findings here or by PM. I will try to make a cold test rig so it is not a complete unknown.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: DMadigan] #748480
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You got fleeced with that quote.
Pattern making was up untill a few years back a highly skilled trade.
Now days it is a desktop CAD job followed by a 3D print .
A blank for the oil pump would be treed 4 to 10 per the pattern if not more
So done commercially it is not all that expensive.

Done as a one off the costs per unit go through the roof.
A student of mine was put in charge of an early CNC machine and I was going to have him turn up fork legs ( no threads ) as a try out for the machine.
I supplied the tube & he did the machining, then management stepped in and wanted $ 2000 for him writing the machining code.
Back then a graduate was on $10,000 to put it into perspective, so the forks got tossed into the furnace & they reimbursed me the cost of the tube ( after some pushing ).

But yes it is a volume thing.
The SRM pump looks like a machined from solid job, particularly as they anodised them.


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Trevor
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748519
09/09/18 5:05 pm
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No, it would not have been a 3D print, this was for a metal mold to produce waxes for investment casting. I later simplified the design which could have been a two part mold, plus they would have let me machine it which very few casting shops would do. I might change to a rubber transfer mold off a 3D print for the waxes with the price of aluminum going up. Investment casting still takes hand labor to add the runners and reservoirs so the cost will not come down with quantities much. I have sold over 500 triple starters but they average about 10 per year. How many A65 oil pumps do you think would sell, 2 per year? Just making 10 would have parts (and money) sitting on the shelf for a long time.
Just buying a Norton starter motor is twice my triple starter and all they do is buy it from the source and hand it to you, not buy the basic starter then disassemble and reassemble on a custom adapter. So I do not make a huge amount of money on these parts.
Your example shows how production has changed and much cheaper. It would take me 15-20 minutes to draw and write the CNC program, including threads, for the fork tubes. However, if you are going to make good tubes a CNC will only get it rough. The outside has to be centreless ground and the inside honed which is usually another shop, then hard chromed (or better, one of the newer coatings), another shop.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748590
09/10/18 5:11 am
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IT was way back when I had hair & teeth.
However the sort of prices you quote make me feel the foundries just do not want to do the job.
Over on the M20 site a chap was looking to have an iron casting done.
The difference in quotes ranged around 300% when he found a small foundry who wanted the work.
Most now days are hooked on high volume turn over because that is all management can understand.
Back in my foundry days we used to get ingot moulds made at a local iron foundry.
As composition of an ingot mould s not particularly important I told them we would buy castings from bad melts or from low wash pours, at an appropriate price.
The cost of the moulds went down 1/2 because we basically ending up paying process scrap plus melt cost for them which was better for the foundry than pouring out dilution pigs.

OTOH I remember when CNC machining was as exotic method only able to be used in high profit defence work.
Now every 1/2 decient back yard workshop has one and as for 3D printing, 10 yeas ago it was research lab stuff now you buy them at Walmart, never seen a technology advance as quickly.

I saw a 3D cope & drag sand casting pattern printing machine on one of the AFS video links from their on line journal.
Amazing technology prints both sides of the base board at the same time adding runners & risers as needed for single platten moulds.
What they were pushing was it would be cheaper to make new patterns for each run rather than store hundreds of not thousands of patteren you might only ever use twice a decade.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 09/10/18 5:13 am.

Bike Beesa
Trevor
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