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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Triless] #748327
09/08/18 6:55 am
09/08/18 6:55 am
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We have a van booked on site plus one at the Halls Gap down the road plus a "villa" cause Pete the Prez can't live without expresso coffee.

But on the subject of cheapness.
When Halls Gap was first confirmed as the destination, I did a search to see what was available there as the actual grounds had not been announced.
There were 48 booking that day at the Halls Creek Van Park, so I booked a van there assuming it was the venue.
The ParkGate OTOH only showed 1 booking that weekend so the assumption that the venue was the Halls Gap Van park looked good.
But no there were 48 bookings at Halls Gap park cause it was $ 500 cheaper over the full week.
AFAIK Halls Gap park sold out well before the Park Gate.
BSA riders cheap ?

So yes we will be there I will be coming with Shane ( see the Who Is In, thread on the international board ) and we will be there Thursday for dinner , we hope.
Originally he was expecting 4 or 5 riders from the USA & Peter another Budwiser drinker but that is down to 2 now so we actually will have some spare beds.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 09/08/18 6:57 am.

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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748329
09/08/18 7:14 am
09/08/18 7:14 am
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Sydney Australia
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Quote
I doubt the SRM pump is cast, it's more likely machined from bar stock. There is a fair bit of work in an oil pump however it's made
especially in small numbers so i've never thought the price was all that high for the unit complete with gears and all. It's just
that being a stupid idiot, i take the time to rebuild old ones. If i worked out the hours spent, a new one is much cheaper.


never having had one in my hands , no idea if they are machined from wrought stock, from a cast billet or from a forged or cast blank.
Casting is the cheapest method of forming metal.

Maching from a forged blank is the most expensive.

Modern multi axis CNC maching is quick & good but very expensive in both materials & machining, particularly when you are maching a part to replace a casting, you are spending a lot of time & money to turn solid metal into swarf and that is just for the body . People forget these machines cost millions so are generally leased and the maintenance costs are horrific.
We ssee a vidoe of them turning a $ 200 lump of steel into a crankshaft is 15 minues and think gees that was quick & cheap without realizing the machine costs $ 100 / hr sitting on the fllor doing nothing & another $ 300/ hr when being operated.
Much more efficient to start with a hollow bodied casting then machine to size.
That is why they were cast in zinc in the first place.
Zinc castings hold dimension much better than aluminium so can be virtually cast to size


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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748371
09/08/18 4:24 pm
09/08/18 4:24 pm
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When I had to start making new triple clutch housings for fitting the starter I had two choices, machine from solid or cast and machine. Sand casting was out because of the low numbers and probably because I wanted to make the mold myself ( I think they make much more from the mold than pouring metal) so it was investment casting. The quote for the mold was $12k and $200 each piece. Although they would have let me make the mold the cost of the casting plus machining cost the same as machining from solid (12" round, 3-1/2" thick), plus I could have smaller batches made. Making large quantities by sand casting and machining it cheapest but not for small quantities. Material cost is small compared to machine time (aluminum was around $2.50/lb before our brilliant leader decided to tax imports so, of course, all the american sources raised their prices. Capitaism at its best.).
I doubt the volume is there to justify casting the iron pump. From the pictures the SRM pump is machined from solid as there is no advantage to machining a casting all over relative to machining from solid.
I bought the CNC mill used and refurbished it so it does not cost anything to sit there. The shop that produces my parts gives me a good rate.
Nick, if you want to test one I can make another and send it, I only ask that you report your findings here or by PM. I will try to make a cold test rig so it is not a complete unknown.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: DMadigan] #748480
09/09/18 11:48 am
09/09/18 11:48 am
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You got fleeced with that quote.
Pattern making was up untill a few years back a highly skilled trade.
Now days it is a desktop CAD job followed by a 3D print .
A blank for the oil pump would be treed 4 to 10 per the pattern if not more
So done commercially it is not all that expensive.

Done as a one off the costs per unit go through the roof.
A student of mine was put in charge of an early CNC machine and I was going to have him turn up fork legs ( no threads ) as a try out for the machine.
I supplied the tube & he did the machining, then management stepped in and wanted $ 2000 for him writing the machining code.
Back then a graduate was on $10,000 to put it into perspective, so the forks got tossed into the furnace & they reimbursed me the cost of the tube ( after some pushing ).

But yes it is a volume thing.
The SRM pump looks like a machined from solid job, particularly as they anodised them.


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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748519
09/09/18 5:05 pm
09/09/18 5:05 pm
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No, it would not have been a 3D print, this was for a metal mold to produce waxes for investment casting. I later simplified the design which could have been a two part mold, plus they would have let me machine it which very few casting shops would do. I might change to a rubber transfer mold off a 3D print for the waxes with the price of aluminum going up. Investment casting still takes hand labor to add the runners and reservoirs so the cost will not come down with quantities much. I have sold over 500 triple starters but they average about 10 per year. How many A65 oil pumps do you think would sell, 2 per year? Just making 10 would have parts (and money) sitting on the shelf for a long time.
Just buying a Norton starter motor is twice my triple starter and all they do is buy it from the source and hand it to you, not buy the basic starter then disassemble and reassemble on a custom adapter. So I do not make a huge amount of money on these parts.
Your example shows how production has changed and much cheaper. It would take me 15-20 minutes to draw and write the CNC program, including threads, for the fork tubes. However, if you are going to make good tubes a CNC will only get it rough. The outside has to be centreless ground and the inside honed which is usually another shop, then hard chromed (or better, one of the newer coatings), another shop.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #748590
09/10/18 5:11 am
09/10/18 5:11 am
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IT was way back when I had hair & teeth.
However the sort of prices you quote make me feel the foundries just do not want to do the job.
Over on the M20 site a chap was looking to have an iron casting done.
The difference in quotes ranged around 300% when he found a small foundry who wanted the work.
Most now days are hooked on high volume turn over because that is all management can understand.
Back in my foundry days we used to get ingot moulds made at a local iron foundry.
As composition of an ingot mould s not particularly important I told them we would buy castings from bad melts or from low wash pours, at an appropriate price.
The cost of the moulds went down 1/2 because we basically ending up paying process scrap plus melt cost for them which was better for the foundry than pouring out dilution pigs.

OTOH I remember when CNC machining was as exotic method only able to be used in high profit defence work.
Now every 1/2 decient back yard workshop has one and as for 3D printing, 10 yeas ago it was research lab stuff now you buy them at Walmart, never seen a technology advance as quickly.

I saw a 3D cope & drag sand casting pattern printing machine on one of the AFS video links from their on line journal.
Amazing technology prints both sides of the base board at the same time adding runners & risers as needed for single platten moulds.
What they were pushing was it would be cheaper to make new patterns for each run rather than store hundreds of not thousands of patteren you might only ever use twice a decade.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 09/10/18 5:13 am.

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