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Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump #747233
08/30/18 5:14 am
08/30/18 5:14 am
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,081
Aus
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NickL Offline OP
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I see Hepolite are advertising an oil pump for the a65/a50 made from cast iron.


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Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747237
08/30/18 6:08 am
08/30/18 6:08 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,594
Scotland
kommando Offline
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Scotland
So a Wassell product then, who is going to be the tester?

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747241
08/30/18 6:36 am
08/30/18 6:36 am
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,081
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NickL Offline OP
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Good question.......... but these days it should be good even if it's sourced in the fear east, it's all sausage factory stuff now with nc etc.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747270
08/30/18 12:36 pm
08/30/18 12:36 pm
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 344
Forfar, Scotland
J
JER.Hill Offline
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Forfar, Scotland
Hi

I would have thought that they would have printed some sort of test results, showing flow & pressure verses engine RPM along with the duration of tests!

my tuppence worth

John

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747271
08/30/18 12:40 pm
08/30/18 12:40 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,391
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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Santa Barbara, California
Wow, it looks nice in the photo. This should give the folks posting long threads on the topic of poor quality an alternative. IMHO, it is likely better than the SRM alloy replacement. I don't see a direct Hepolite sales link, but Here is one supplier.

https://www.britishbikebits.com/hepolite-oil-pump-bsa-a50-a65-1963-73

Last edited by KC in S.B.; 08/30/18 12:43 pm. Reason: Link

Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747275
08/30/18 1:22 pm
08/30/18 1:22 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,180
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
it certainly has a better finish than the OEM iron pumps externally, I would give it a go , but Ive just refreshed my OEM pump.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747279
08/30/18 2:00 pm
08/30/18 2:00 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,076
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Is it CNC machined billet or is it cast iron???? Didn’t know you could have a billet of a cast item????

KC have you used the SRM pump? There’s a lot of comments over the fact they are made from alloy but I’ve never had a problem. You never hear of A10 pump issues (which is almost identical to the A65 type) and the later pumps are located on Dowls like the SRM Pump.... considering cast iron will warp I feel the dowls make more difference.


beerchug
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Allan Gill] #747283
08/30/18 2:31 pm
08/30/18 2:31 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,110
Stone Creek OH USA
R
Rich B Online happy

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If cast iron warps with the low flow and pressures involved in a BSA twin......it likely wasn’t very good material to start with.


Never underestimate the human ability to elevate stupid to a whole new level!.
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747296
08/30/18 3:42 pm
08/30/18 3:42 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,874
ca, us
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DMadigan Offline
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ca, us
"Billet" only means new material, not sourced from some unknown scrap. I do not know of any iron that is not cast unless possibly sintered. Even if the pump were cast in a mold it would have to be machined since it could not be cast to the required tolerances.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747298
08/30/18 3:55 pm
08/30/18 3:55 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,210
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

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Lancaster, California

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747308
08/30/18 6:20 pm
08/30/18 6:20 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 254
Duesseldorf/Germany
Phil in Germany Offline
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Duesseldorf/Germany
Hmmmmm... IME the SRM oil pumps for the A 65 are absolutely brilliant. My Lightning does not wet sump at all over winter, pressure is great.

At least in my experience Hepolite aka Wassell is a company with a questionable quality management resp. quality control.
I myself, I shall not buy a core engine element like an oil pump which in case f***ed up the engine completely from a maker that has proven to be unable to produce a simple thing as needle jets. I had a set of them and returned them to my BI dealer as the bike pinked like crazy after installation. On a basic measurement it turned out that all of his wonderful Wassell needle jets differently stamped from .105" to .107" had a diameter of a tad under .100".

There is nothing wrong with the New Hepolite Pistons, all Wassell does is buying JCC Pistons and AFAIK rings from Hastings and pack them in a funky yellow cardboard box. Manufacturing an oil pump is of course no rocket science but more complex than packing pistons and rings or boring needle jets to size.


FWIW

Cheers!

Ph., who has had his share of experience with a MCA pump which was not brilliant either


Best regards
Phil
Duesseldorf/Germany
'62 A 65 Star (disassembled)
'69 A 65 Lightning
'71 A 65 Firebird
'75 T 160
'84 Yamaha SR 500
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747344
08/30/18 11:04 pm
08/30/18 11:04 pm
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Posts: 4,081
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NickL Offline OP
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I have recently worked on a bike with an SRM pump fitted and yes, it is a nice bit of kit, good pressure etc.
I acquired the old pump off the bike from the owner and rebuilt it. It was a DD pump and works very well, no need to change it really, just a bit of elbow grease.

My own preference for material though would be cast iron for an oil pump, just a personal thing,
i'll reserve judgement on the Wassel unit until i've actually seen/used one, which may be never.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747348
08/30/18 11:47 pm
08/30/18 11:47 pm
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,898
Elburn, Ill. USA
I
Irish Swede Offline
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Cast Iron needs to "cure" after coming from the mould box.
It either has to be annealed for a certain time in a red-hot atmosphere (an oven),
or left standing in open air for a while.

Henry Ford used to "cure" engine blocks by piling them out in the weather for a period of time
before allowing them to be machined.

My understanding is that the "curing" process is a way to relieve stresses within the castings.

This may not be a problem with castings as small as BSA oil pumps,
However.....
Who knows?

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: DMadigan] #747378
08/31/18 8:35 am
08/31/18 8:35 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,876
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
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Sydney Australia
Originally Posted by DMadigan
"Billet" only means new material, not sourced from some unknown scrap. I do not know of any iron that is not cast unless possibly sintered. Even if the pump were cast in a mold it would have to be machined since it could not be cast to the required tolerances.


Billet means absolutely nothing.
You can make a cast billet full of gas holes from primary alloy or a top quality one properly degassed from scrap and grain modified or even double vacuum melted and inoculated one.
Basically what they are saying is it was machined from a solid lump of material which in may caes produces a product substantially inferiour to a cast & machined product.
Metals are very much like timber, the strength is all in the direction and size of the grains

A billet can be forged
A billet can be cast
A billet can be extruded.

Each one will have vastly different properties even if made from identical alloy.

If an iron casting is moulded properly you can knock them out today , machine them tomorrow and they will give you a long & trouble free service life.
It is all in the art of making a proper pattern with chills & shuts in the right places then pouring good clean metal at the right temperature.

However in a full on production situation, where time is money, a lot of short cuts get taken and work arounds are needed particularly if you are green sand moulding.
If you are shell moulding it is not imporant because you are not going to reuse the mounding sands in situ ( yes it does go out & get reprocessed ).


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Phil in Germany] #747379
08/31/18 8:41 am
08/31/18 8:41 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,876
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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Sydney Australia
Originally Posted by Phil in Germany
Hmmmmm... IME the SRM oil pumps for the A 65 are absolutely brilliant. My Lightning does not wet sump at all over winter, pressure is great.

At least in my experience Hepolite aka Wassell is a company with a questionable quality management resp. quality control.
I myself, I shall not buy a core engine element like an oil pump which in case f***ed up the engine completely from a maker that has proven to be unable to produce a simple thing as needle jets. I had a set of them and returned them to my BI dealer as the bike pinked like crazy after installation. On a basic measurement it turned out that all of his wonderful Wassell needle jets differently stamped from .105" to .107" had a diameter of a tad under .100".

There is nothing wrong with the New Hepolite Pistons, all Wassell does is buying JCC Pistons and AFAIK rings from Hastings and pack them in a funky yellow cardboard box. Manufacturing an oil pump is of course no rocket science but more complex than packing pistons and rings or boring needle jets to size.


FWIW

Cheers!

Ph., who has had his share of experience with a MCA pump which was not brilliant either


I am with you on this one.
Wassel parts have been really on the nose.
If they were pumping out 1/2 million units a year then the number of failures that I have come across might just be considered acceptable
However the large number of failures indicated bottom drawer quality or zero developement and dubious quality control.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Irish Swede] #747380
08/31/18 8:52 am
08/31/18 8:52 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,876
Sydney Australia
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Posts: 3,876
Sydney Australia
Originally Posted by Irish Swede
Cast Iron needs to "cure" after coming from the mould box.
It either has to be annealed for a certain time in a red-hot atmosphere (an oven),
or left standing in open air for a while.

Henry Ford used to "cure" engine blocks by piling them out in the weather for a period of time
before allowing them to be machined.

My understanding is that the "curing" process is a way to relieve stresses within the castings.

This may not be a problem with castings as small as BSA oil pumps,
However.....
Who knows?



Iron castings have sort of evolved just a tad since the days of "yeah colour looks good tip it out"
Spectral chemistry has made control on chemical composition 100 times better than Henry could have dreamed of and I am talking Royce ( perfect vehicles ) not Ford ( cheapest vehicle )
Thermionics have allowed amazing control over the cooling so it is not uncommon to have a production line where the parts are knocked out, trimmed , blasted ( or tumbled ) then strait onto the machining line.
Back in the immediate post WWII days it was all about speed so castings would be knocked out of the mould while they were still liquid inside, they would then continue to solidify which puts a lot of stress into the casting.
Properly designed these shrinkage stresses add to the strength of the casting .'
At the worst a casting needs to be normalised or just left to sit for a while ( Ford case ) to allow them to shrink & warp so when machined the machined surfaces will remain true.

Malleable iron castings ( typically crankshafts ) are good to use right out of the mould


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747394
08/31/18 11:47 am
08/31/18 11:47 am
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,898
Elburn, Ill. USA
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Irish Swede Offline
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I worked in a malleable iron foundry. The castings came "right out of the moulds," and directly into the annealing ovens, where they were cooked for 12 to 24 hours, depending on size, to remove brittleness.

Out of the oven they cooled, then were inspected for cracks. Once, a crack was spotted in one of the larger hollow castings. Our boss handed two of us a sledge hammer and we took turns beating it until it was nearly flat.

The crack never expanded.


Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747401
08/31/18 12:29 pm
08/31/18 12:29 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,180
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
"There is nothing wrong with the New Hepolite Pistons, all Wassell does is buying JCC Pistons and AFAIK rings from Hastings and pack them in a funky yellow cardboard box. Manufacturing an oil pump is of course no rocket science but more complex than packing pistons and rings or boring needle jets to size."

recent experience at the LBS with new Hepolite rings for a T100R top end rebuild was not good, oil rings would not fit, spring expander was too long.

MCA valves were a thou oversize, wassels pushrods were the wrong length.
LF Harris to the rescue, buy cheap buy twice.
Even the AMAL premiers needed tweaking , the float SS hinge on one carb was too loose and prevented correct float operation.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 08/31/18 12:32 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747419
08/31/18 2:57 pm
08/31/18 2:57 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,076
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Interesting about the AMAL Prem' Gavin, the SS rod should be slightly proud of the bowl so that it is trapped by the gasket.... but im assuming you mean the curled over metal on the float itself?


beerchug
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747450
08/31/18 7:43 pm
08/31/18 7:43 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 806
San Luis Obispo, CA
Richard Phillips Offline
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San Luis Obispo, CA
I think its great, Wassel has done a great job of reverse engineering one of the most critical components of our machines and as it says on the package Made in England. Nothing against SRM I use their pumps along with original cast iron and DD pumps on my engine builds. If I didn't have enough pumps for my next four builds I would buy one of these pumps in a heart beat.
I also think its great this unit has hit our forum. All the experts get to weigh in with metallurgical factoids and figures, manufacturing techniques, volumetric statics questions, that impresses me to no end. We really have a cadre of real brilliance at our finger tips.

By the way, not to high jack the post any further than it is Wassel makes an excellent electronic ignition unit called The Vape. It takes less electricity to power, the unit is fully encapsulated and the ignition curve mimics a point set. Look into them, JRC has them

I was once a member of the Optimist Club in college. Their motto: "The Optimist moves forward, The Cynical stand still, the Pessimist reverts!'

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747452
08/31/18 7:51 pm
08/31/18 7:51 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,180
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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argyll. scotland, uk
"but im assuming you mean the curled over metal on the float itself?"
Yes, the fit was too loose.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747455
08/31/18 8:10 pm
08/31/18 8:10 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,594
Scotland
kommando Offline
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Scotland
Wassell do not make the VAPE, they have them made by a good company in Eastern Europe, Did they get lucky or have they improved is the question that needs answering.

Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: Richard Phillips] #747458
08/31/18 8:25 pm
08/31/18 8:25 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,629
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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scotland
Originally Posted by Richard Phillips

By the way, not to high jack the post any further than it is Wassel makes an excellent electronic ignition unit called The Vape.

As already said, they are distributors for it.

Quote
It takes less electricity to power,

No it doesn’t. It uses over 2 amps.


Quote
the unit is fully encapsulated


Yes. The stator and the black box appear to be more robust than other systems I’ve seen.

Quote
the ignition curve mimics a point set.


You should be more cynical about sales talk. The curve mimics an analogue Boyer: you set timing at 5,000 rpm.

The Wassell/Vape system works well on my bike and it’s very cheap. Only done about 1,000 miles but it looks hopeful.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747460
08/31/18 8:55 pm
08/31/18 8:55 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 878
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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I think whats important here is to remember that Wassell are not actually a manufacturing company and everything they sell is subcontracted to other companies, usually in India, China, Taiwan etc. I can imagine that contracts would be awarded to companies already in the business of producing similar components such as JCC and Vape.

The main issue I see is how Wassell specify the requirement for new oil pumps, pistons & rings etc. to their suppliers and how these components are subsequently QA tested and delivered back to Wassell and then their customers. Clearly there is huge scope for getting things wrong along the way, but I suppose we should at least be thankful that new replacement parts are being made.

Whether or not the Wassell pump turns out to be good or bad remains to be seen, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Hepolite Cast Iron A65 oil pump [Re: NickL] #747468
08/31/18 9:52 pm
08/31/18 9:52 pm
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,898
Elburn, Ill. USA
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Irish Swede Offline
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Who dares to be first to risk his engine as the "test case?"

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