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Carb setting help #745594
08/15/18 2:01 pm
08/15/18 2:01 pm
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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Got my 67 A65L back together and running, it’s not smoking so far but it does have a heavy stumble when accelerating under load.

Hoping someone can help me get a base setting for the carbs.

I’m running megaphone pipes, short velocity stacks and .060 over bore. Any tips or setting recommendation for my carbs to to work from?

Thanks

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Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #745602
08/15/18 2:47 pm
08/15/18 2:47 pm
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Set it according to manual. Thinking 1 1/2 on mixture


Bill
1974 Norton Commando
1966 Lightning
1965 Lightning Rocket
1966 Norton Atlas
1967 Norton Atlas
1948 Panhead
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #745606
08/15/18 3:43 pm
08/15/18 3:43 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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More info needed, what throttle position does the stumble occur, , if it spits back on opening it needs less cutaway, past 1/4 to 1/2 its more likely to be needle position.
Easy stuff to play with , needle position, try weaker/ lower needle, Megaphone- itis is a thing , try googling it. Sometimes means a weaker middrange is needed.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 08/15/18 3:46 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #745651
08/16/18 12:46 am
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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It was happening running about 40mph in 2nd gear so 1/4 to 3/4 throttle maybe. I wasn’t paying a ton of attention to throttle position at the time though. It took about 2 miles to start doing it, would that indicate it was running lean? And when first started it was running richer because the float bowl were over filled from tickling the carbs?

I forgot to mention these are 388/689 monoblocs.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #745653
08/16/18 1:13 am
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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Not megaphones, the pipes are Dunstall replica reverse cone mufflers. I guess these might be megaphones, I dont know.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #745654
08/16/18 1:16 am
08/16/18 1:16 am
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gavin eisler Offline
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If it gets worse as it warms up it suggests richness, try lowering the needles, this will help in the mid range, if they are old carbs then fit new Needle jets, these do wear and have a richening effect as the hole opens up. Have a look at the plugs, if very sooty then defo too rich at the mo.
Put some masking tape on your throttle barrel , put a mark on your throttle twist grip, mark the masking tape at o, 1/4 1/2 / 3/4. make sure you can see your marks easily.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #745657
08/16/18 1:22 am
08/16/18 1:22 am
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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I had them once , they are megas , might need a size or two bigger main jet. What settings are your carbs at the moment?.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Carb setting help [Re: gavin eisler] #745658
08/16/18 1:48 am
08/16/18 1:48 am
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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I dont know I have to go out and check. I think I set them to the manual a couple of years back, but the bike never ran right on account of having .040 over pistons in .060 cylinder bores m. I can’t remember if I messed with the settings or not so I’m going to set everything to factory spec and ride it again.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #745667
08/16/18 4:24 am
08/16/18 4:24 am
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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I am running a #3 slide, air valve was 2 turns out, jets and all replaceable parts are brand new from AMAL, needle was on 3rd notch. I lowered the needle to the 2nd notch and turned the air screw 1 1/2 turns out from seated. I fired the bike up, with it on the center stand the bike stumbles off of idle now but revs past smooth all the way up once it gets past the stumble. I didn't get to ride it as its pretty late, and tomorrow its calling for rain all day so wont get to do load testing until Friday at best.

It's been a while, but are there new slides available for the 689 carb? I havent looked in a few years but they were impossible to find back then. If not, would stock pea shooters work better for me? I just got these pipes cheap and they look cool, not that the peashooters don't look cool.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #745683
08/16/18 9:01 am
08/16/18 9:01 am
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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AMAL , Burlen are remanufacturing Mono blocs, so I would think new slides are available.

The pilot air screws should be adjusted for max idle speed when the motor is fully warmed up after a decent run, Once set lower the throttle stops to give a normal idle.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #745705
08/16/18 12:28 pm
08/16/18 12:28 pm
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
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If these are definately replica dunstalls, have a look at either welding some of the outlet tubes up, or Weld a nut in the centre hole and make some discs that have varous holes or hole sizes in... Sounds like too little back pressure. I sourced some original dunstalls for mine.... Far better than the repo's... I have another (albeit) battered original set, and the outlet holes are smaller still.

But the problem itself won't be properly rectified with carburation alone. it'll run better but you will be constantly up and down the box, improving the back pressure will give the bike more torque.

HTH


beerchug
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #745878
08/17/18 10:51 pm
08/17/18 10:51 pm
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double ditto on the tuneable Dunstals.
Ran them for decades and it did make a big difference to the power characteristics of the bike.
To a large extent they got replaced with the rat traps which were really popular with the in line 4 riders.
The replicas did not have a nut in the middle tube but you could weld one into it, but the baffle usually gave up in a few years.
[Linked Image]
This is a stainless replica made by Overlander Equipment downhere in OZ fitted to the 71 A 65L
Looks like it ran best with 3 outlets open


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #745880
08/17/18 11:05 pm
08/17/18 11:05 pm
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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It seems the tubes are steel in these replicas since they’re magnetic, I think I’ll pick up a bolt and weld it into the center tube and make a baffle to bolt in. I’m going to head out later tonight to see if it runs better after I lowered the needle 1 notch, waiting on the rain to clear up first.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #745908
08/18/18 6:39 am
08/18/18 6:39 am
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Clarkston, MI
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Took it out for a short ride tonight, it seemed to run much better until wot where it would spit and slug a little bit. I'm guessing I need to get a larger main jet? Digging through my random bag of parts I did find a 300 main jet, probably to big but it leads me to believe it was running a 300 main jet back in the 70s when it was last on the road before I acquired it. I think I may order a 280, 290, and 300 main jets and try them out. Or if I install a baffle of some sort will the stock jetting work?

It was far from a successful ride, the screws holding my tach into the cup fell out so the face was bouncing around. The screws holding the gauge bracket backed out so that was bouncing around. The tank moved around and thankfully didn't do any damage but I hate taking that thing off and trying to get the rubber spacers in the right spot. Also found out my head light is in need of adjustment and one of the gauge lights burnt out. Anyone know of a non Lucas bulb that fits thats readily available at big box auto stores or batteries plus bulbs? And finally when I first turned on the fuel and when I stopped for fuel I had a nice spurt of fuel coming from my ticklers, luckily a light rap on the float bowls stopped that.

On a positive note I was able to find the tach screws and rubber thingies, unfortunately it took forever to uncrimp the ring but I was able to get it off with out breaking it or the glass. I was also able to dig up the old style of floats that didn't have any leaks, they have the brass pivot and dont get stuck on the screw boss like the new style. And bet of all no major leaks when I came back, I'm taking all of this as a win.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746130
08/20/18 5:40 am
08/20/18 5:40 am
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The gauge lights are b9s's as i remember. get a couple of led ones off eBay.
If you block a hole or two in the exhaust you probably wont need the bigger main jet.


Lamas are bigger than frogs.
No room for sanity here.
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746131
08/20/18 5:44 am
08/20/18 5:44 am
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The gauge lights are b9s's as i remember. get a couple of led ones off eBay.
If you block a hole or two in the exhaust you probably wont need the bigger main jet.


Lamas are bigger than frogs.
No room for sanity here.
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746155
08/20/18 1:21 pm
08/20/18 1:21 pm
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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Went for ride the other night and when I got home she wouldn’t idle. I’ve only been able to get her to run for a few seconds before it dies, if I rev it beyond 2000rpm it will stay running but close the throttle and she dies. After it dies it just shoots flames out of the carbs or backfires out of the exhaust, but usually a from the carb. I’m lost as to why since it’s never had issues starting 1st kick even with pistons that were .020 under the bore.

Any thoughts on why this is happening now after a good ride where it ran great? Stock jetting, needle on 2 notch, valve clearance is spot on at .008” in and .010” ex, reset the pazon pick up plate to the starting spot so it’s timed correctly and I have good compression. I’ve tried the air screw at anywhere from 1 turn out to 2 turns out. Only decent change was older plastic floats with a brass pivot, went to those because they don’t get stuck on the bottom of the float bowl allowing a stream of gas to flow from the tickler.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746158
08/20/18 1:28 pm
08/20/18 1:28 pm
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Central Ohio
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Intake air leak!!!

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746166
08/20/18 2:00 pm
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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I’ll check that when I get home, but I don’t see how that’s possible. Just to be sure I’m right, it’s paper gasket, isolator block thingy, rubber oring and carb? Brand new paper gasket and oring were used and the nuts are nylock nuts. But maybe I had a gasket fail or that hose between the 2 carbs is cracked.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746169
08/20/18 2:53 pm
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Originally Posted by redmosquito1
I’ll check that when I get home, but I don’t see how that’s possible. Just to be sure I’m right, it’s paper gasket, isolator block thingy, rubber oring and carb? Brand new paper gasket and oring were used and the nuts are nylock nuts. But maybe I had a gasket fail or that hose between the 2 carbs is cracked.



Just going by the "last thing you changed" philosophy, I'd recheck the float to make sure that the "older plastic float" you installed didn't get shocked by having to go back into service again, or that a piece of muck didn't interfere with the float needle or pivot ... ?

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746193
08/20/18 7:55 pm
08/20/18 7:55 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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Or the pilot jets are blocked.Always suspect them firs.t they are the smallest holes and are the first to block if there is rubbish in your fuel. These are also what keep your motor running with a shut throttle , so if it needs blipped to keep it going they are out of whack.

The next steps are essential to get a clean running twin carb set up, monos or concs makes no difference , principles are the same,

Are your carbs synched correctly?, this means warming the engine completely with a decent run, at least 6 miles.
Fit a clamp to the balance pipe, if a clamp doesnt work , temporarily block the balance pipe by pulling one side and plugging the end of the pipe and the stub ( do this balance pipe stuff first with a cold motor , then set off), Remove one plug . and clip it to the head, start the motor on one , raise the idle a bit so its stable, then adjust idle mixture screw for max idle speed, lower idle with throttle stop to around 900 rpms, repeat same for other side.
Put both plugs in ,start up, idle will be too high now, drop each throttle stop screw an equal amount so idle is steady as desired,

Thats the idle set. This is the correct setting for your idle mix, not anywhere between one turn and two turns open but precisely set to give optimum running with a warmed up engine. Make a note of where the idle mix screws end up, mark the body to line up with the screw slot, screw in counting whole turns ( 360 degree is a whole turn ) and fractions of a turn, they should end up somewhere between 3/4 and 1 3/4 out. Reset to as tuned, once you know the setting, If they end up out of this range less than 3/4 means you need a bigger pilot jet, more than 1 3/4 means you need a smaller pilot jet.

Now synchronise the throttle cables ( motor OFF0 , look in the inlets , put a finger on one slide , watch the other slide, and with your 3rd hand slowly open the throttle, if one slide lags behind the other take up slack on the lagging side cable, rinse and repeat until happy. Alternatively fit a balancer across the balance pipe tappings for this part, results are similar , the balancer is maybe a bit more accurate.
Ride off with your new smooth , clean running motor.

I do all this at the side of a quiet road, well away from neighbors. The run home allows you to appreciate the improved running.
Tools needed , plug spanner, screwdriver for mixture screws.

Once cold . later Reconnect/ unclamp the balance pipe , ( the balance pipe helps accommodate slight variations in carb balance and is a good thing for a smoother easier starting bike)

If you dont have chokes fitted , you will need to tickle when cold, and the motor may take a mile or so to clean/warm up.
Once warm it should pick up cleanly with no fluffng after trailing the throttle on a downhill section ( for me , thats when I know things are right).

half of this depends on everything else/ timing/ etc being correct, the rest of it is down to the quality of your throttle cables, If you have to cut your own cable outers to get the right fitted length make extra sure the outer ends are ground square and there are no springy coils anywhere to mess with the synch. And dont grease the throttle drum,( I used to, big mistake, now it gets a thorough clean and light oil only.), Bicycle shops have very nice teflon lined outer, with inners to suit, I use the local pushbike shop for throttle cable bits, just buy the throttle barrel nipples/ferrules in., cycle inner cable comes with a nipple that will work at the carb ends.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 08/21/18 9:20 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746264
08/21/18 5:01 am
08/21/18 5:01 am
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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So removed the old style floats, did some light sanding on the new style floats and some clearancing of the screw boss and now the new floats sit on the bottom stop boss and don't stick. Fuel pissing out the tickler problem solved.

Still not running. I had fuel flowing out of the pilot jets when I removed the cap so I didn't go any further, but since it isn't running tomorrow they'll come out and get looked over, maybe replaced if I have another set (probably not, will order some though.) The plugs are wet with fuel so I know fuel is going into the cylinder.

I have spark, I have compression, I have fuel, valve clearances are correct, timing is set per Pazons initial settings, carbs are tight with new gaskets and orings.

I don't know what else could be causing this, next step is to pull the pilot jets and look them over and then set the needle back to 3rd slot and see if that does the trick. It was running so good took, this damn bike is driving me crazy!

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746265
08/21/18 5:02 am
08/21/18 5:02 am
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Clarkston, MI
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Thanks Gavin, I'm glad you write is in this thread so I can find it easily. Once I get it running good I'll balance the carbs per your instructions.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746350
08/21/18 10:17 pm
08/21/18 10:17 pm
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You shouldn't have fuel flowing out of the pilot jet. That screw meters air, not fuel.

Is your float level(s) correct?


Ginge
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746367
08/22/18 12:10 am
08/22/18 12:10 am
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It's sometimes difficult to know whether your description of symptoms applies to a run before or after the changes you are making. It would make diagnosis easier if you could describe the state of things first, then followed by how it performed. An ordered sequence of change and effect makes problem solving more efficient.

Presumably the bores and pistons are new now? Not just new +60 pistons in the old +60 bores?

When problems seem to come out of the blue, running EI, the 1st thing to check is charging/battery/voltage control.

I think the carbs are 389 Monoblocs? all spares for which are readily available.

On these carbs, removing the pilot jet cap will allow petrol to pour out, as the jet takes petrol from the cap.

It sounds like the " it just shoots flames out of the carbs or backfires out of the exhaust, but usually a from the carb" happens since you reset the Pazon to initial setting?
If so, this setting is only very approximate, and I'd suggest returning it towards where it was when it was running in a usable way.

Gavin's advice on setting up the carbs is valid, except I'd always synchronise 1st, then the idling setting.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746369
08/22/18 12:29 am
08/22/18 12:29 am
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argyll. scotland, uk
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Each to his own on synching, Ive tried a few methods and this works for me.
I have measured across the balance pipe tappings with a ball ometer balance gauge while riding, idle mix first and then synch shows the ball centre zero through the throttle range, this is pretty crude looking , but I have double checked its result with a pro mercury type gauge and it was dead on.. If you synch first to full shut ( or full open ) you are relying on the carbs being exactly machined , slide length and slide floor as a perfect pair, AMAL are not super tight with these tolerances. If you then have to adjust one throttle stop a little more than the other for even idle , you have created a staggered lift , the slightly raised screw will have a slightly slacker cable and trail on opening.
For a street bike getting the idle pick up clean is important, for a race machine perhaps synching to full open is more ideal. ive checked mine , both go full open fairly close, for me having the first part of the throttle in balance is more important, 90 % of riding is in this range.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746372
08/22/18 12:53 am
08/22/18 12:53 am
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Just read back a bit
"reset the pazon pick up plate to the starting spot so it’s timed correctly", if this is just the get you going setting with the white dot performed statically, do not pass go, do not do any carb fiddling till you have strobed the timing. It may be a bit retarded, it may be over advanced, you wont know till its been strobed. Its best with two folks, one of them must have a strobe the other needs a bike, the strobee gets his face covered in oil while kneeling on the floor, the bikee revs the motor and stops it walking backwards , its difficult to strobe a moving bike. The strobe marks are notches on the alternator rotor, these align with a fixed pointer , lower RHS inside the front of the primary behind the round front cover.. Move EI stator plate until rotor / pointer align when revved to around 4K.
Dont change anything drastic in the carbs till you do this. I think 67 was the first year for these marks, its a bit more painty and messy if you have an early model with no inspection cover.
If you dont know someone with a strobe , get friendly with a garage that does.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746398
08/22/18 4:44 am
08/22/18 4:44 am
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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Gavin, I have a strobe light and got a face full of oil when I dynamically timed it, but that was when I rebuilt the bike a couple of years back and that was with the wrong sized pistons so it needed to be retimed. It was on my list of things to do along with balancing the carbs but it won't start at all now so I can't do any of that until I get it to run. I reset the pazon to the "get it running" spot in hopes that it would get it running, it has not. I checked the fuel level (hose on pilot jet leveled to the pip on the float cover) with the old style floats and it was a little higher than the pip. Installed the new floats after doing some clearance work to them so they didn't get stuck anymore but it was late and didnt check the float level. And since I tickled the carbs it won't be an accurate level until I drain some fuel out.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746442
08/22/18 3:12 pm
08/22/18 3:12 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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If your carbs are out of whack to the point it wont start.

lets review the last changes.

This after lowering the needle one notch

"Took it out for a short ride tonight, it seemed to run much better until wot where it would spit and slug a little bit. I'm guessing I need to get a larger main jet? Digging through my random bag of parts I did find a 300 main jet, probably to big but it leads me to believe it was running a 300 main jet back in the 70s when it was last on the road before I acquired it. I think I may order a 280, 290, and 300 main jets and try them out. Or if I install a baffle of some sort will the stock jetting work?"

presumably lowering the needle cleaned up the middrange but left the top end weak, Bigger MJs needed to clean up top end.


"Went for ride the other night and when I got home she wouldn’t idle. I’ve only been able to get her to run for a few seconds before it dies, if I rev it beyond 2000rpm it will stay running but close the throttle and she dies. After it dies it just shoots flames out of the carbs or backfires out of the exhaust, but usually a from the carb. I’m lost as to why since it’s never had issues starting 1st kick even with pistons that were .020 under the bore. "

As other s have said , air leaks? Are you sure, if the carb bodies are old then its almost a cert that the flanges have been overtightened and bent at some point in their history. Google "Brit bike John Healy carb flange straighteming ", to get the lowdown.
its best to press these straight with a special tool, its all in JHs excellent info. If at some point in their histtory the carb flanges were warped then filed back to flat, they are going to warp again easily and the throttle chamber will remain distorted.

if its not leaking air, spitting back and flames suggests poor timing or low battery voltage, dying battery which comes alive when revs pickup . or when you messed with the carb screws the throttle stop screws were backed out to the point the slides are shut.
look in the carbs , there should be a "peep" showing beneath the slide. As a starting point try raising the slides two full truns on the screws from dead shut. Set your pilot air screws somewhere between 1 .5 and 2 turns out ( it did run with it at 2 turns out before you mentioned)

"Still not running. I had fuel flowing out of the pilot jets when I removed the cap so I didn't go any further, but since it isn't running tomorrow they'll come out and get looked over, maybe replaced if I have another set (probably not, will order some though.) The plugs are wet with fuel so I know fuel is going into the cylinder.

I have spark, I have compression, I have fuel, valve clearances are correct, timing is set per Pazons initial settings, carbs are tight with new gaskets and orings."

Fuel running out of the pilot jets is not proof they are properly clear, .
Monoblocs dont have handy float bowl drain like concs, but they do have MJ inspection hexes, when you remove the MJ cover ( carefully , dont spill) , pout their contents onto a white plate, tells us what you see. its the lowest point, water and muck gather there.
Remove the pilolt jets for close inspection under a glass, check they are clear , its OK to poke them with copper wire, a strand from a multi core wont do any harm if you dont have a correct # series drill., only do this with the jets removed, if done in situ the debris is still there just pushed back to re appear later. While the jets are out. with an air line and fine nozzle blow through the small holes in the front of the bell mouth lower lip, try to catch what comes out. My experience with old Monos is a bit out of date , but I remember finding blocked needle jet air ways, usually from Brass verdigris. Reverse flush again,, blow through the opposite way did some one say Ultrasonic cleaner, if so use it if available.
if you fancy stripping the carbs totally, be very wary of damaging the jet block gasket, best to leave the jet block in place, everything else is easy to get at / inspect.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746724
08/25/18 6:36 pm
08/25/18 6:36 pm
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Isle of Wight, UK
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koan58 Offline
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RMozzie
Any progress?
I assume that no news means not.

I really think the focus on carbs so far may be a red herring.

Especially as it was performing badly, then you reset the ignition to its "get you started setting" and now it doesn't start at all.

I know yours is a Pazon, but when I first put a Boyer on mine, using the the similar initial start setup, it did start reluctantly, and ran very badly, with backfires and spits from the carbs.
I can easily imagine some bikes not even starting at this setting.

So I experimented by altering the stator position. In my case, advancing the timing resulted in the engine running well enough to be able to strobe it properly at high revs.

I can't emphasise enough how important it is that you set the timing right with EI, by ear or whatever just won't do.

Until the above is done, you're wasting time thinking about main jets, pilot jets, slides etc.

As I mentioned previously, as you're running EI, the voltage the system runs at must be maintained at 12V +/- 2V approx for the EI to be happy.
When the battery/system voltage drops significantly, the ignition unit behaves erratically and often causes the symptoms you have described.

If you can remember which way you moved the stator to return to the "start" position, try moving it back. Otherwise, it's trial and error!

Best of luck.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #746890
08/27/18 5:41 am
08/27/18 5:41 am
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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No real updates. Still not running but Ive been working a lot of overtime this week so haven’t spent much time on this. I did check the voltage, it’s at 12.75 resting and drops to 12.35 when I kick it over. I did pull out the pilot jets and they were clear, also checked the float level and it was spot on with the new floats. But that was as far as I got.

Koan I think your right on timing, it is spitting less now that I went back to pazons suggested start point. My plan is to drain the sump to look for metal (hope to find none) then set the trigger plate back to roughly where it was and see what happens. But that won’t be until later in the week.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747230
08/30/18 4:37 am
08/30/18 4:37 am
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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Update -
Success and failure, possible bigger issue. After checking and resetting every carb setting and resetting the timing etc etc etc I was stumped because I couldn't get this thing to run but a few seconds. But it occured to me that it would run after I sprayed the plugs with carb cleaner and wiped them down. It then occurred to me that maybe I should get a plug cleaner and give these plugs a proper blast and clean. She started first kick and I was able to keep it running for a while, so long that I was thinking I'd dynamically time it since it was running really smooth and not walking about. That was until I stuck my hand behind the exhaust to make sure they were both kicking out the same pressure, and to my confusion the left cylinder felt cold while the right was pretty hot. Even more confusing was the big oil slick left on my palm from the left cylinder. Even more puzzling was the fairly good sized puddle of oil forming under the left side of the bike that appears to be coming from the joint at the slip on and from the connection of the pipe at the head. Also, there is oil bubbling up from the head stud in front of the spark plug.

None of this makes any sense, fouled plugs shoudln't have been spitting back into the carbs. There shouldn't be oil in exhaust and there definitely shouldn't be oil bubbling up from the head stud. I annealed the head gasket and sprayed a coat of copper gasket sealer before reassembly, installed new o rings in the little oil holes and torqued everything down to my manuals spec (30 something ftlbs). Head was rebuilt by E&V with no more than 300 miles on it. Guess I'm ordering a new head gasket and try that.

I'm about to kick this bike down the road.

Last edited by redmosquito1; 08/30/18 5:01 am.
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747277
08/30/18 1:33 pm
08/30/18 1:33 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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Sounds like the sump is full of oil, ., drain it and measure the quantity that comes out.

Did you top up the oil tank before starting,? maybe the oil tank had drained into the sump and now the system is overfull.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747331
08/30/18 8:48 pm
08/30/18 8:48 pm
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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It’s possible. I haven’t drained the sump since I changed the oil, which was before I started this thread. I really need to pick up one of those sump plates with a drain plug or modify the stock one.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747334
08/30/18 9:19 pm
08/30/18 9:19 pm
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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Just drained the sump, had a little over 4 ounces (150mL) I say a little over because there is a small amount of oil coating my drain pan and I spilled a small amount pouring it into the measuring cup. manual says to add 1/2 pint of clean oil added to the crank case, so I don’t think that’s my issue.

Next thought is maybe I didn’t anneal the head gasket well enough, but it was cherry red when I heated it and it was coated with copper coat spray. If not that then possibly I torqued the head down to the wrong setting. My manual says 3/8” bolts/nuts get torqued to 25 lb/ft which is what I did in 3 steps.

Last edited by redmosquito1; 08/30/18 9:24 pm.
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747374
08/31/18 6:53 am
08/31/18 6:53 am
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Never added oil to the crank case, but even still that wouldn’t be your problem, it should just smoke it out if too much.

Have you checked your head bolts don’t go all the way and bottom out?

Have you checked your head and cylinder gasket surface is flat, don’t be surprised if your cylinders aren’t.

Also I never had the best of luck with pattern head gaskets, I managed to source some NOS ones, they were a little thicker. Never had any head leaks from anywhere after that. Not even the notorious drain hole leaks.


beerchug
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747405
08/31/18 12:48 pm
08/31/18 12:48 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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Cherry red is good, Allan makes good points , do a leak down test using compressed air, if the bolts and gasket are good you may have a broken oil ring. Its not unknown for a little oil to find its way up the cylinder head bolts, this usually clears up after a retorque.
However , it is unusual for oil to find its way into the exhaust system in such quantities.
Did you pour oil into the plug holes before start up? Some folk do this , believing they are being good to the motor, result, glazed rings and fouled plugs. The only time to pour oil in is to test for worn rings, comp will come up with added oil.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Carb setting help [Re: gavin eisler] #747552
09/01/18 3:40 pm
09/01/18 3:40 pm
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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No oil poured into cylinders. Followed the dry assembly procedure for breaking it in. I’ll do a leakndown test today and see what I find. Probably going to pull the head and re anneal the gasket and see if there is any oils moving between the gasket

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747554
09/01/18 3:56 pm
09/01/18 3:56 pm
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Monclova
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sloppyoil Offline
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Red Mosquito one, I live in Monclova Ohio, how far are you from Toledo? Monclova is a burb of Toledo. If you cant figure it out perhaps I can help. I am a teacher but restore and do rebuilds in the summer. DBA Vintage Restoration. I specialize in Triumph and BSA twins, If your not to far just something to consider. Thanks Tom PS look up Vintage Restoration up on facebook, I have a page and you can look at some of my work.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747566
09/01/18 6:43 pm
09/01/18 6:43 pm
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Ipswich England
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Bit late to the stage, but how about removing the rocker cover and inspecting its underside. Any marks near where the tappets are indicate fouling, this frustrated the f**k out of me when I had it happen to me. Will prevent starting easily with only an exhaust valve not closing properly..


Gavin
You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747613
09/02/18 6:00 am
09/02/18 6:00 am
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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Update after poking around tonight. First while reinstalling the sump cover I managed to snap a stud off, I know how I did it but its still frustrating. I guess its time for a SRM unit with a drain plug and bolts instead of studs.

It is starting first kick again, I'm thinking that when I swapped the floats I was getting to much fuel in and subsequently fouling the plugs. Spark plug cleaner took care of that issue.

Still pissing oil out of the left cylinder, coming out of the header joint to head and where the slip on mounts. on the left cylinder I have 120 psi on cold compression test after 10 kicks, did a leak down test at TDC and was at 30% (in the green on my gauge) and I can't hear any air leaking. When I connect about 60 psi of air hose to the cylinder it rotates the motor. I didn't check the right side for leak down yet because that side seems to be running fine.

Interestingly when I pull the plug wire off the left side I barely notice, plug off the right side and I need to give it serious throttle to keep it going. Clearly the left side is either getting a ton of oil into the cylinder or the carb is way out of whack. At this point I'm thinking oil is getting in there.

Best guess I have is that the head gasket isn't sealing on the left side for some reason. I have a feeling the mass amount of oil dripping out of the pipe is from the return hole and its getting sucked into the cylinder and out the pipe. Unless the valve seal is not there and the guides are toasted I don't see any other way that much oil could possibly get into the cylinder and out the pipe. And since this head was rebuilt by E&V 2 years ago with maybe 300 miles I can confidently say that isn't the issue. I can also say that when I was running .040 over pistons in .060 over bores I never had oil drip out of the exhaust, just a ton of smoke. It has to be coming from somewhere, and thats the best guess I have.

So, off comes the head again for a little look in the coming days. Was really hoping to have a solid running bike for Battle of the Brits show next weekend, turns out the wife planned my daughters first birthday party for that day so I can't go anyways. Still bumming.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747615
09/02/18 6:04 am
09/02/18 6:04 am
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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Sloppyoil - youre about 2 hours from me, I'm up in oxford so a quick shot over to 23 and straight down so I may take you up on that offer if I need to. Is your name Tom too?

WBAbojo - I had the valve cover off about a week ago but I didn't see any marks on it. I'm taking the head off probably tomorrow or the next day so I'll look closer and see if there are any there.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747636
09/02/18 2:30 pm
09/02/18 2:30 pm
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Monclova
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sloppyoil Offline
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yes it is. I will be at the battle of the brits too unless of course I get pulled away but I doubt it. I'm not riding though I'm driving, I will have a 97 red mustang SVT Cobra. You could text me and let me know where you are. My Number is on my face book page that I mentioned earlier. Good luck, check your oil pump to make sure it didn't loosen up too.

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747664
09/02/18 6:35 pm
09/02/18 6:35 pm
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Interesting about the pump, if tightened up to the specified 7 ftlb of torque they will work loose( least mine did) so I lock wires mine in place :bigt

Red’: don’t forget to check the barrel face, also the head face... even though it may have been skimmed a barrel out of true will pull the heads face out again. A large (and preferable new) sharpening stone will quickly highlight any high spots, or some Stuart’s micrometer blue with a small piece of glass. But my guess to the problem is that it is sucking in oil under vacuum and very often the centre stud on the head becomes a low spot causing a poor seal.


beerchug
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747672
09/02/18 7:31 pm
09/02/18 7:31 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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If you have EI its not a good idea to pull plug leads off with the motor running, theres a high risk of spark energy feeding back and disrupting the EI tiny bits. If the plugs are removed and clipped to the motor so they can spark, thats OK, but the spark must be able to jump somewhere.
Allan makes very pertinent points about the barrels.
For the head joint to seal all must be flat, at a push I have lapped the head to the barrel with lapping compound and a figure of 8 motion. plug holes with blue tack firstt to keep grit out. Clean thoroughly before reassembly.
last time I blued the joint and found raised areas around the barrel threads, scraped then re blued, did this a couple of times till the blue took all over.

Also check the head around the bolt / stud mounting holes where the washers bear against the alloy, these areas can distort , usually bellied to wards hole, my head needed 3 of the spot faces truing up, worst one was the centre bolt mount, it was cockeyed.
The only good fix for this is a man with a mill, spot face washer lands back to true level taking off just enough to clean up.
All head fastener washers should be thick types, normal washers wont cut it.
Make sure head bolt holes are not nipped around the top due to distortion, get a drill that fits the undistorted end and use it to clear the nipped top area, if tight this can trick the torque wrench, all going slack after a couple of heat cycles.

Do retorque after a couple of heat cycles, yes it means disturbing the exhaust rockers, , but I find that at least one bolt/ stud will settle , usually more, centre and front last time I did it.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747710
09/03/18 5:28 am
09/03/18 5:28 am
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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Sloppyoil - I won't make it to the Battle of the Brits this year, my Daughters 1st birthday party is the same day. Pretty sure I'd be looking for a new house if I skipped that, haha.

Good tip Gavin; I won't be pulling the wires off while running again, I've managed to avoid any damage so far but won't risk it again.

My plan is to check the torque value on all the head bolts/nuts to see if any worked themselves loose. I don't anticipate they did based on how little time was on the bike before it started this issue, if there are any loose I'll retorque and refit everything and run it to see if that fixes the problem. Again, I don't anticipate there being an issue there, so I'll pull the head and have a look at the head gasket and check the flatness of the head and cylinder.

Is it possible to flatten the cylinder in the bike? or am I looking at big problems with getting schmoo into the motor?

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747716
09/03/18 7:35 am
09/03/18 7:35 am
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Bolton Lancs UK
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Andy Higham Offline
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Forget the head gasket, you are chasing shadows there. The chances of oil leaking into the cylinder in any quantity is almost zero.
You have proved the integrity of the cylinder sealing by a leakdown test.
You have stated one cylinder is cool
You stated pulling the plug lead on that cylinder made almost no difference
What you see leaking is unburnt fuel, that cylinder is either too rich, too lean or not getting a spark (try swapping plugs around)
Are your plugs new or just cleaned up old [censored]? Put new plugs in


BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360 Challenger
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 OK Supreme
'36 OK Supreme
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747718
09/03/18 8:02 am
09/03/18 8:02 am
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NickL Online content
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'Is it possible to flatten the cylinder in the bike? or am I looking at big problems with getting schmoo into the motor?'

Not really, it'll get 'schmood-up'

If it's out far enough to cause head gasket blowing then it needs skimming at a shop with a surface grinder. I doubt it is though.
Pull the studs out of the barrel and run a straight edge over the surface, you may find high spots around the stud areas, you can correct them with a good flat file.
Pack plenty of rag into the bores and pushrod tunnel before you dress the face.
Get a new gasket, anneal it and put it on with some Welseal, sounds old fashioned i know, but that gear is bloody good, it works. Let it go off a while before assembly.
If you like, you can put a couple of small o-rings into the gasket holes where the oil drillings are, it's another old trick that works.
Use decent thick 3/8 washers (NOT 10MM) on the bolts and studs when you put the head back on.

There were/are some real crap aftermarket head bolt and stud kits about, the bolts stretch like rubber, get hold of some original ones if you need to.
The studs thread into the barrel by at least 3xD and they have pips on the end of 'em. The short threaded ones are crap.

As Gavin said, pull the head down/re-torque it and do the tappets after 100 miles of so, you should have seen the ton a few times by then.


Lamas are bigger than frogs.
No room for sanity here.
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747747
09/03/18 3:28 pm
09/03/18 3:28 pm
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Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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Andy I think your right here on the fuel and not oil. Went out to start tear down and fired it up to let a little fluid come out of header joint and it was marginally clear and went up in flames with a slight touch. I was thinking oil because the stuff coming from further down the pipe is black, but that might be old carbon and oil because it lit off very nicely

Ok, why is it dumping fuel into the cylinder?

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747748
09/03/18 3:33 pm
09/03/18 3:33 pm
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Bolton Lancs UK
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Andy Higham Offline
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As I stated earlier, try new plugs or at least swap the plugs right for left


BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
Greeves 350
Greeves 360 Challenger
Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
'35 OK Supreme
'36 OK Supreme
Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747756
09/03/18 4:06 pm
09/03/18 4:06 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 282
Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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redmosquito1  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2013
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Clarkston, MI
I did that. These plugs have 1 ride of 20 miles on them before they fouled up. Cleaned with the plug cleaner and have swapped plugs with the old plugs and back and forth etc same result.

I lowered the needle to the first notch and it did get hot on the left cylinder and much less fuel/oil came out.

So frustrating

Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747796
09/03/18 7:21 pm
09/03/18 7:21 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,075
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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gavin eisler  Offline
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Posts: 4,075
argyll. scotland, uk
Could be the fueled up side carb has a dodgy float or float valve needle , flooding. have a good look at the float operation, new floats sometimes have left over flashing seems that can catch and prevent proper closure, needle seats can have dirt on them and prevent proper sealing, that sort of thing.


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Re: Carb setting help [Re: redmosquito1] #747853
09/04/18 4:17 am
09/04/18 4:17 am
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 282
Clarkston, MI
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redmosquito1 Offline OP
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redmosquito1  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 282
Clarkston, MI
Gavin that was the side that I checked the float level with the new style floats after reinstalling them and it was right on the pip. I was having issues with the new style as they seemed to be slightly larger than the old style and were getting stuck on the screw boss causing flooding and fuel to spit out the tickler. I removed the injection flash from the float and relieved a little material from the screw boss and that allowed it to work properly. At that point the fuel level was checked and it was on the pip.

I cranked out the air screw and set the needle to the top notch and it seemed to get heat into the cylinder but on idle there was fuel/oil coming from the header again. I'm going to pull that carb off and tear it apart, maybe something got stuck somewhere. I may swap everything over to my other 389 body and see if that helps. If not head will come off and see what I find. Based on my compression and leak down test I don't think there are any issues with anything but the carb, but I'm running out of things to look at.

Anyone know a competent mechanic around the Oxford, MI area? or Metro Detroit? I know about E&V but I'm looking for someone within an hour or less and hes 3+. I'm getting to the throw the towel in point after 2+ years of restoring and 3 years of trying to get it to run right I'm about done dicking with it. How reliable are those repop concentrics from AMAL? maybe I should switch to those.

Last edited by redmosquito1; 09/04/18 4:20 am.
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