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Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #742012
07/15/18 9:28 pm
07/15/18 9:28 pm
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Yeah, oil that is never warmed up is probably more damaging than very hot oil..Well, Triumphs certainly don't waste precious HP pumping oil.....The oil flow or lack of oil flow on Triumph twins has made me wonder why the damn thing doesn't melt down.


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Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #742027
07/15/18 11:02 pm
07/15/18 11:02 pm
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Before I even start, let me make it clear that I am NOT arguing for the hell of it! My question is this: If oil capacity, and oil temperature, aren't of great importance, and if adding capacity (thereby decreasing the oil temperature) is not recommended, how come increasing the oil capacity by as much as practically possible is one of the main modifications carried out by people like John Young? Is he wasting his time> Is he causing unwitting damage to his engines? Doesn't seem so, going by his achievements.


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Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: Tigernuts] #742202
07/17/18 7:28 am
07/17/18 7:28 am
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Hi,

Originally Posted by Tigernuts
If oil capacity, and oil temperature, aren't of great importance, and if adding capacity (thereby decreasing the oil temperature) is not recommended, how come increasing the oil capacity by as much as practically possible is one of the main modifications carried out by people like John Young? Is he wasting his time> Is he causing unwitting damage to his engines? Doesn't seem so, going by his achievements.

You would need to know all the modifications John made. E.g. "Tridentman" has posted that most of the cooling is done at each end of a triple's cooler, John fitted a Vetter Windjammer(?) fairing certainly for his original Iron Butt ride; also for the IB, John carried additional weight in fuel and spares; etc.

Afaik, there isn't an oil company that would disagree working engine oil shouldn't be around 100oC, for the reasons posted already. If additional oil quantity reduced oil temperature to around 100oC, that would be a good thing. Otoh, if additional oil quantity reduced oil temperature to, say, 50oC, that would be a bad thing.

Standard triple oil capacity is 5 Imperial pints. From '69 onwards, many standard triples were used in summer in southern European countries (some ridden two-up from GB with camping gear and other luggage), southern US states, Australia, etc.. If it was common for them to suffer engine heat-related distress, or modifications to increase oil capacity to avoid it were a necessity, it would've been widely-known decades ago.

As "Tridentman" has posted, based on his experience, he advises fitting a thermostat to a triple's oil system, so the oil reaches a good working temperature quickly, and low ambient air temperature has less effect on working oil temperature. Long before this advice was available, I know it was common for triple riders in GB who used their triples regularly in colder weather to block off the oil cooler and/or reduce the oil quantity by between a half-pint and a full pint.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #742225
07/17/18 2:53 pm
07/17/18 2:53 pm
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Certainly my advice ref Trident oil cooling/heating refers to a solo bike used naked (the bike not the rider!) on surfaced roads.
Fitting a fairing and/or a chair and/ or using it off road give a completely different set of characteristics.
The redoubtable John Young fitted a fairing to his Iron Butt bike and he also used a triple engine in an outfit for use off road in the North African desert,
Both of those situations are way away from the usage of 99% of riders.
My advice for normal road use is the standard cooler fitted with an oil thermostat.
BTW— the preferred oil temperature is 85C or 185F — which is the set temperature of the oil thermostat that I recommend.
HTH

Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #744931
08/08/18 9:54 pm
08/08/18 9:54 pm
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I don't think I've ever been called "redoubtable" before !! Lol !!

Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #744940
08/09/18 12:28 am
08/09/18 12:28 am
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But well deserved nonetheless, John!

Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #744979
08/09/18 1:51 pm
08/09/18 1:51 pm
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Hello Tridentman

Well thank you - although I fear that you are giving me undue credit.

As it happens, I've just returned from another trip to the USA & Canada, this time riding (amongst others) the Alcan Highway, again on my 1969 T150

As usual, the bike did its job well and is currently on its way back home. Japan is the next place I'll be heading for on it.

Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #745004
08/09/18 6:15 pm
08/09/18 6:15 pm
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John takes his bike on long trips. I would guess the extra capacity is because old Brit bikes burn and leak more oil than modern ones. Having the extra capacity decreases the worry of running short of oil in the middle of nowhere (such as the Alcan Highway).
You could use the cooler off an XR500 or XR600. It depends upon your skill level.

Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #745032
08/09/18 9:49 pm
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Regardless of whether an oil cooler is fitted or not, it's also worth considering using a synthetic motorcycle oil when riding in hot areas or at constant high speed.

Synthetic oils are much more suited to handling high temps than their mineral equivalents. Mineral oils start to break down at around 240F (115C), once this temp is reached or exceeded the oil is effectively toast, resulting in oxidisation and sludge. Synthetics start to break down at around 300F (148C). a whole 60F (33C) higher. The uniformly smooth molecular structure of synthetic motor oil, free of the contaminates found in conventional petroleum motor oil, provides superior protection against heat, friction, and wear.



Last edited by gunner; 08/09/18 10:06 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #745082
08/10/18 7:20 am
08/10/18 7:20 am
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Hello David (Madigan) - sorry for the informality as I don't know you personally, but I am obviously aware of both your talent and your reputation.

The two bikes on which I have the larger capacity oil tanks (1) the "IBR" T150 (10 pints) and (2) the "Tuareg" Wasp T150 outfit (16 pints) burn or leak very little oil.

For example on the recent "Alcan" trip, the T150 used considerably less than a pint over the 4000 mile journey.

I don't tend to post on forums like this very often as I am simply not qualified to comment with any authority (other than my own personal experience) as to subjects such as oil etc., plus the fact that I appear to be a "marmite" person when it comes to triples !! Lol !!

However, I think people seem to think that I run the bikes with full oil tanks all of the time and this is not so. I will vary the amount of oil in the tank, depending on what I am doing with the bike.

For example, when we were racing the Tuareg Wasp in the Sahara, we ran with a full oil tank. In the UK, I tend to run the bike with the oil tank half empty (or half full depending on your point of view). It is interesting that when we were putting the outfit together for the Tuareg Rally, I spoke to a couple of the ex-factory "race team" guys about my decision to go for a high capacity of oil to deal with the cooling issue and they both said that if they were faced with a similar problem, that it how they would tackle it - they also said though that they would not be stupid enough to try to race a triple in the Sahara !! Lol !!

How much oil that I have in the tank, comes down to "feedback" I get from the bike. Again, as an example, crossing Alaska, the Yukon and BC on the Alcan Highway recently, the IBR bike, ran with about 2/3rds full tank. Once we crossed into the USA and rode inland where the temperatures were up around 110 degrees, I put extra oil in as the bike felt it needed a "little extra help"

Whether what I do is right or wrong, I don't really know. All I can say is that using my "methods", I appear to be able to do things with triples that tends to surprise most people - that is not meant in any way to be taken as an egotistical statement, it's just simply the reaction I get and given the amount of time my name appears to pop up in forum discussions, seems to only further support that assumption.

One last thing, the "IBR" T150 has an oil cooler but the Tuareg Wasp doesn't. As it happens, neither does my 1000cc T160 powered hill climb racing car.

I'm not sure whether this posting clarifies or just simply adds further confusion to the original question. As I say, I am simply not qualified to give an opinion. I can just report what I find from my experiences.

BTW - On my latest trip, I met and spent sometime with Tom Mellor (the 200mph Trident powered Bonneville record holder). He does not use an oil cooler on his Bonneville race bikes

Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #745124
08/10/18 3:32 pm
08/10/18 3:32 pm
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John— you are due a lot of credit IMHO.
There are armchair experts and some of us who were involved in developing and testing these old bikes back in the 60s and 70s— but nothing can match actually riding these old bikes over thousands of miles and in this respect you have few if any equals.
So do not be modest— we all have a lot to learn from your actual experiences.
BTW when developing the oil cooler for the triples we found that it takes 10-15 minutes for oil temperatures to stabilize so that is why there is no need for a cooler on a drag or sprint bike.
For your Saharan outfit I guess ( maybe wrongly?) that you were not using full power for more than 10 minutes continuously in which case you were OK with greater oil capacity.
These days with rare exceptions the biggest problem with oil temperatures on a triple is over cooling due to leisurely usage in temperate climates. In these circumstances the standard cooler configuration overcools ( which you try to counterbalance by reducing the oil volume). But the better solution IMHO is to fit an oil thermostat into the system.
After all not many of us would think of running the cooling system in our cars with no thermostat!
HTH

Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: Tridentman] #745137
08/10/18 4:38 pm
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Originally Posted by Tridentman

After all not many of us would think of running the cooling system in our cars with no thermostat!
HTH


The thermostat on a liquid cooled is also a restriction to build pressure to help prevent steam pockets from forming in the heads...

TM, On a triple what oil temperatures are seen with and without a cooler ? Do you think a synthetic oil can be within it's operational limits at temperatures that would be destructive to a vintage Triumph engine? I do know that modern engines can be run at high power levels with 230F oil temperatures


I ride dinosaurs....
Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #745145
08/10/18 6:06 pm
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Hello John, I did not mean to imply that your bikes leaked and burned oil. It was one of those "tongue-in-cheek" moments where everyone thinks British bikes are oil burning leakers was the reason for the high oil capacity.

Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: DMadigan] #745151
08/10/18 6:42 pm
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HB—- the. Function of the thermostat is to regulate the temperature of the water in a water cooling system.
After the thermostat has cracked at about 185F then if the water temperature increases further the thermostat opens more until it is fully open and giving little resistance too flow at about 210F.
The thing that suppresses the formation of steam pockets and equally importantly the formation of cavitation erosion at the water pump inlet is the system pressurization.
In older vehicles it was typically 7 psi, when I was working in this field it had increased to 15 psi and is now typically 21 psi.
Not only does the pressure help prevent cavitation erosion it also increases the boiling point of the coolant by about 2 degrees F per psi. This enables the radiator to be smaller as it is dealing with a larger temperature difference between maximum water temperature and maximum ambient air temperature.
Hope this makes sense.

Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: Tridentman] #745154
08/10/18 7:06 pm
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HB— ref the Trident oil temperatures.
Difficult to answer your question in simple numbers— there are so many variables.
Certainly in UK air temperatures ( and in the North East US except for this summer!) typically in normal enthusiastic road riding the oil temperature would not get above about 55C ( 130F). This is in standard trim with oil cooler fitted.
Not sure what the temperature would be with no oil cooler but would guess about 75C (165F).
You could probably run a triple in normal road use ina temperate climate with no cooler and not exceed 230F oil temperature even when ridden hard.
The oil might survive but I am no so sure about critical parts of the engine such as cylinder distortion,piston life etc.
Not something I would personally attempt— but then I am comfortable with the oil cooler as long as there is a thermostat in the system.
HTH

Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #745159
08/10/18 9:16 pm
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There's a very interesting article in PDF format about engine temperature and lubrication on Norton Commando's at This Link (note may download as a PDF document or open in a new window depending on your browser).

Obviously this article doesn't apply to Tridents but makes interesting reading. The author mentions that some of the typical engine temperatures encountered at a steady highway speed of 65 mph in 90F-degree still air were:
- cylinder head 275f
- cylinder base 230f
- cam cover 210f
- engine oil intake 190f

At a steady 75 mph these temperatures were all about 10 degrees higher.

The author goes on to mention that adding an oil cooler reduced the oil temp by some 10 to 15 Fahrenheit and that an oil cooler can reduce the risk of premature oil
failure, but not enough to guarantee lubrication under the harshest of real-world riding conditions.

Later on there is a test of 3 different synthetic oils over 1000 miles in the commando engine and subsequent lab oil analysis.

Like I said, this may not relate well to Tridents but its an interesting read.


Last edited by gunner; 08/10/18 9:17 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #745168
08/10/18 10:47 pm
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Where i live it doesn't get hot enough to warrant the fitting of an oil cooler.
Same goes with using fancy oil.


Lamas are bigger than frogs.
No room for sanity here.
Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: MrRippington] #745175
08/11/18 12:10 am
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I have no idea about the scienceof all this. A|ll I can say is that last summer when I toured France on my TR7, I used Silkolene Comp 4 20/50 XP, which is a fancy, synthetic oil. The air temperature rose to 40 degrees (that's 104 Fahrenheit) on the leg of the journey from Millau to Narbonne. It washumid too and the only way I could get any air cooling for me was to go as fast as possible (I had to carry on wearing my Belstaff jacket as I had nothing else with long sleeves, and I'd have got severe sunburn if I'd ridden with exposed skin in that fierce heat). I averaged 85mph on that 100 mile stretch. Then had to ride a further 80 miles along twisty rural roads before I reached my destination, in the same 40 degree heat.

I had a horrible feeling that I was ruining my engine but I had little choice, as I had to be somewhere, and waiting for the sun to go down wasn't an option. I found myself surprised that it was still going as well as ever, even in the traffic jams of Narbonne. I checked the oil the next day and it looked and felt fine, after about 1000 miles total. It still looked and felt fine when back home another 1000 miles (mostly 75-80mph on autoroutes) later.

I wonder whether ordinary mineral oil would have coped so well?


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Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: Tridentman] #745197
08/11/18 10:52 am
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Originally Posted by Tridentman
HB—- the. Function of the thermostat is to regulate the temperature of the water in a water cooling system.
After the thermostat has cracked at about 185F then if the water temperature increases further the thermostat opens more until it is fully open and giving little resistance too flow at about 210F.
The thing that suppresses the formation of steam pockets and equally importantly the formation of cavitation erosion at the water pump inlet is the system pressurization.
In older vehicles it was typically 7 psi, when I was working in this field it had increased to 15 psi and is now typically 21 psi.
Not only does the pressure help prevent cavitation erosion it also increases the boiling point of the coolant by about 2 degrees F per psi. This enables the radiator to be smaller as it is dealing with a larger temperature difference between maximum water temperature and maximum ambient air temperature.
Hope this makes sense.


When I was messing with modified older OHV inline 6 cylinder engines, a well respected engine builder told me the thermostat restriction pressure story... I politely argued that the pressure built in the closed sytem does the job..He said no, you have to have an internal restriction just before the flow outlet to the radiator...So I changed my thinking... ..Your explanation is more logical...So new thinking once again......


I ride dinosaurs....
Re: Oil Cooler that would fit a 1970 Tiger [Re: Tigernuts] #745245
08/11/18 11:53 pm
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Originally Posted by Tigernuts
I have no idea about the scienceof all this. A|ll I can say is that last summer when I toured France on my TR7, I used Silkolene Comp 4 20/50 XP, which is a fancy, synthetic oil. The air temperature rose to 40 degrees (that's 104 Fahrenheit) on the leg of the journey from Millau to Narbonne. It washumid too and the only way I could get any air cooling for me was to go as fast as possible (I had to carry on wearing my Belstaff jacket as I had nothing else with long sleeves, and I'd have got severe sunburn if I'd ridden with exposed skin in that fierce heat). I averaged 85mph on that 100 mile stretch. Then had to ride a further 80 miles along twisty rural roads before I reached my destination, in the same 40 degree heat.

I had a horrible feeling that I was ruining my engine but I had little choice, as I had to be somewhere, and waiting for the sun to go down wasn't an option. I found myself surprised that it was still going as well as ever, even in the traffic jams of Narbonne. I checked the oil the next day and it looked and felt fine, after about 1000 miles total. It still looked and felt fine when back home another 1000 miles (mostly 75-80mph on autoroutes) later.

I wonder whether ordinary mineral oil would have coped so well?



I have used a standard mineral 20/50 oil in my t120 and a65 since i've owned them here.
Last summer here we had a week or two of 42-45 deg temps, Admittedly i didn't ride much in that heat.
I did however use a similar 20/50 mineral oil in my racing bike for about a year here, before we were sponsored and then used an 'R30'.
I had a small cooler in the nose of the outfit but it was faired in as the oil would not get hot enough most of the time.
Being a lazy sod i left it there rather than remove it.
We raced frequently in temperatures over 40 degs.
Whenever i measured it, it was never greater than 80-90 degs. Standard mineral oil can go to 120 or so before it even starts to break down.
As the delta-T goes up the cooling effect of the frame/tank/engine etc increases.
I waved a pyrometer at my a65 oif one day and the oil was 85 degs or so after being thrashed for a couple of hours. Just starting to get warm
enough to boil off moisture, i wouldn't want it any cooler. Warm oil is always better than cold, ask anyone who's had a massage.....
Most blokes worry unnecessarily about oil temperature getting too high, most of these old heaps don't need a cooler, they would probably
benefit more from a sump heater in England.


Lamas are bigger than frogs.
No room for sanity here.
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