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Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Alan_nc] #744823
08/07/18 10:29 pm
08/07/18 10:29 pm
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Posts: 497
Cork Ireland
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chaterlea25 Offline
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Cork Ireland
Hi MM,

Quote
for a rotating shaft and O/X-rings wouldn't survive that environment for long.


16 years ago in a bid to seal the leaking sliding plate that fits on the inner primary case of my BSA A10
I machined up a steel boss with a groove for an X ring and fitted it to the sliding plate
The x ring runs on the plain part of the shaft adaptor and this has remained leak free since

John

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Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #744828
08/07/18 11:12 pm
08/07/18 11:12 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 79
Maida Vale, Western Australia
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Richard Kal Offline
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Hi MM,
With the energy levels and machining skills you continue to display, it wouldn't take too long to remove the outer timing casing, and spot face the timing sprocket face of the casing to accept a lip seal. 1/8" depth seal, with an OD say 3/16" larger than the OD of the bronze bush. I.e. it will be a press fit into the aluminium.

The 1/8"of the bronze bush that is removed (lost) should not compromise the effectiveness of the bronze bush.

Or, press out bronze bush and machine in a reverse scroll into it then re-install; works for A10 timing gear (dynamo drive); not as effective as the lip seal because it won't stop oil leaking past when static.

Richard

Last edited by Richard Kal; 08/07/18 11:51 pm.
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #744832
08/08/18 12:00 am
08/08/18 12:00 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,850
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by Alan_nc
MM is sort of "in the heat of battle" at the moment
Actually, having just returned from the gym, it's more like the agony of defeat.

Originally Posted by Alan_nc
If you walked into an Ariel Dealer in 1928, uncrated your new bike, did whatever minor tweeking seemed necessary.....could you reasonably take off and ride across the U.S.?
I sure hope so. Although I've taken great care in the rebuild, it's still an essentially stock 1928 Ariel.

Originally Posted by chaterlea25
The x ring runs on the plain part of the shaft adaptor and this has remained leak free since
Yours is a post-war BSA twin while mine in a pre-war Ariel single. Clearly, there's nothing about the machines that's the same...

Originally Posted by Richard Kal
remove the outer timing casing, and spot face the timing sprocket face of the casing to accept a lip seal.
First, thanks for the compliment. Even if I could find a lip seal for the 3/4" shaft whose OD was less than the OD of the projection from the casing, I try very, very hard not to do anything irreversible to motorcycles I'm working on unless it is absolutely necessary.

In this case, between the lip seal, the projection, and the sprocket, I might be able to solve the problem with an add-on piece that could be removed by a later owner if they ever wanted to return it to its original, oily configuration. Yes, I might have to machine the sprocket to accomplish this, but I don't count a modification like that as doing something irreversible since it easily could be swapped for a different sprocket. Although metal removed from a major engine casting could be filled back in with TIG welding and machining, something like that is a lot closer to being irreversible than not.

Anyway, all options are open (even X-rings...[*]), although I'm hoping an add-on lip seal holder proves workable. The seals are due on Thursday and I have the magneto to deal with in the meantime.

[*] p.s. also on Thursday an X-ring kit containing sizes from 3/32" through 1-5/16" will be delivered. In case I need it for a post-war BSA twin...

Last edited by Magnetoman; 08/08/18 1:53 am. Reason: p.s.
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #744865
08/08/18 5:29 am
08/08/18 5:29 am
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 36
Melbourne, Australia
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Villiers Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
If you want to know what you could do with a brand new Ariel in 1928 you should read "Cossack at Large" written by I S K Soboleff. He rode a Model C Ariel and sidecar around the world in the late 1920's. He was one of many Russians who fled Russia after the Revolution and had to survive somehow. He was given the Ariel and sidecar in Karachi then proceeded to ride it around the world back to Karachi. It's a good read with the round the world ride being only one of his adventures..

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #744894
08/08/18 1:36 pm
08/08/18 1:36 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,627
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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MMan—- agreed that an A10 and a 1928 Ariel are quite different.
However— I agree with Chaterlea— the application is the same.
And X rings are quite different from O rings.
Think of an X ring as two lip seals close together.
I would not hesitate to use an X ring in a rotating shaft application.
Just my two cents worth of course.
HTH

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #744903
08/08/18 4:11 pm
08/08/18 4:11 pm
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by Tridentman
I would not hesitate to use an X ring in a rotating shaft application.
OK, OK, I give up. As I said, a kit of x-rings is on its way to me.

However, it's unlikely the sealing arrangement could be the "standard" one of a constrained x-ring with the shaft rotating against its ID. Instead, because of space limitations, the x-ring likely would have to rotate with the shaft and the side face of it used to seal against the bronze bush (which, had I known this a few months ago, I would have polished to a mirror finish).

Further, the thinnest 3/4" ID x-ring is 0.070" wide so there isn't room for a collar to compress it against the bush. I either would have to make a hollow collar with thin end to bolt to the projection on the casting, or carefully fit a spacer between the x-ring and sprocket to give the right amount of "crush" (not too much; not too little). Plan A remains using a modified lip seal, if that proves possible, but Plan B is an X-ring.

On another note, the latest (August) issue of the AOMCC newsletter carries a ~1500-word story I wrote about my rebuild of this machine. Since it serves as an "executive summary" of the 1400+ posts to date I added it at the beginning of the first post in this thread.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #744925
08/08/18 8:47 pm
08/08/18 8:47 pm
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I installed the sprocket with the portable impact wrench, which I've come to love, and then made a careful measurement of the gap between it and the case. I was pleased to find the gap actually is 0.133", which means there's room for a proper lip seal.

I then removed the magneto and disassembled the armature with the help of my portable impact wrench which, if I haven't mentioned it, I've come to love. The armature has a new winding on it, which means I'll have to decide whether or not to use it, but the condensers are inappropriate so I will be replacing them.

My external measurement of the secondary resistance found it to be infinite, but the reason almost certainly is because that its slip ring is a very loose fit so it wasn't making contact with the coil. This isn't a problem for the high spark voltage but is for a DC measurement.

A quick test of a later armature showed it might actually fit if I machine down the drive end for the smaller bearing used in the KSA1. The idea of modifying a later armature probably will fall apart upon closer inspection but, if it doesn't, a possibility could be to keep the rewound armature and wind a new coil on a modified later armature.

Attached Files MagnetoArmature.jpgMagnetoCondensers.jpg
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #744929
08/08/18 9:07 pm
08/08/18 9:07 pm
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Posts: 497
Cork Ireland
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Hi MM,
I have a "feeling" that a lot of the oiling problems that the Ariel is suffering from is due to the high temperatures
that you are experiencing in Arizona,
Talking with some friends last evening who took part in an event during the recent hot (for Ireland) they noted
more oil leakage and much less resistance in hand pumping SAE 50 into total loss lubed bikes
This was without me mentioning you Ariel woes

Going back to an earlier comment I made about the rings bedding in
A leakdown test should indicate if the rings are sealing properly

John

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #744951
08/09/18 3:26 am
08/09/18 3:26 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,850
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by chaterlea25
I have a "feeling" that a lot of the oiling problems that the Ariel is suffering from is due to the high temperatures that you are experiencing in Arizona,
That's certainly a significant factor, but the clearance that lets oil into the bush also lets it out the other end. A seal should help a lot even when temperatures are lower. Plus, high temperatures are a fact of life around here for the summer months so if I hope to ride the Ariel during the summer in future years I'll need to stop (or slow) the leak.

Originally Posted by chaterlea25
A leakdown test should indicate if the rings are sealing properly
That's a very good suggestion. Thanks. I'll get to it in the next couple of days.

I tested the armature on my Merc-O-Tronic tester and it checked out fine, as did the DC resistances of the primary and secondary. Thankfully, the rebuilder had been sparing with epoxy so it was easy to remove the condensers in order to replace them with a pair of Panasnonics.

The surface for the earth brush was rough in an odd way. In addition to a rough track covering about half the width, there was a double step of heights ~0.01" at one side. I held it by the bearing race in a collet, surfaced it, and smoothed it a little further with emery paper.

After cleaning the bearings and races and replacing the grease with Mobil 1 wheel bearing grease I assembled the magneto and magnetized at 82 kA-turns. I don't need my magnetizer very often, but when I do I'm very glad to have it because there isn't an alternative for the task. The magneto is now loosely installed on the platform waiting for the oil seal to be dealt with so it can be timed. The oil seals and x-rings arrive tomorrow.

For now I'm sticking with the winding that came with the magneto. I'll probably rebuild a magdyno to have along as a spare in case the winding develops an internal short.

Attached Files MagentoEarthRing.jpgMagnetoMagnetizer.jpgMagneto_installed.jpg
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Alan_nc] #744974
08/09/18 12:41 pm
08/09/18 12:41 pm
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,898
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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]
Originally Posted by Alan_nc
I can't help wondering:

I know MM is sort of "in the heat of battle" at the moment but:

If you walked into an Ariel Dealer in 1928, uncrated your new bike, did whatever minor tweeking seemed necessary.....could you reasonably take off and ride across the U.S.?



No,
Even as late as the 50's it would have been a challenge.
We regularly had round Australia trials and just finishing was a feat.
BSA did a stunt runing a flock of Bantams around OZ and there was a 50 year anniversary renactment which from memory no one managed to finish.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #745002
08/09/18 5:25 pm
08/09/18 5:25 pm
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by Alan_nc
If you walked into an Ariel Dealer in 1928, uncrated your new bike, did whatever minor tweeking seemed necessary.....could you reasonably take off and ride across the U.S.?
Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
No.
Even as late as the 50's it would have been a challenge.
We regularly had round Australia trials and just finishing was a feat.
I found the following about 1950s Australian car rallies:

the roads linking large portions of the country, particularly west of Adelaide, were not in good condition...
The second Redex round-Australia reliability trial, of 9,600 miles (15,400 km) ,... More than half the field failed to complete the course, most being victims of the 379 miles (610 km) stretch from Cairns to Hughenden. The last leg was marred by a section near Murrumbateman where contestants had to negotiate a boggy paddock,...


In contrast to Australia, by the 1950s roads across the U.S. were in such good condition that it would have been pointless to stage a "reliability trial" unless the route avoided good roads.

As for earlier, in 1924 Cannonball Baker, after whom the Cannonball Rally is named, drove a car across the U.S. (~3000 mi.) in 4-2/3 days. Today on Interstate highways google shows that's a 40-hour trip so it would take 3-1/2 days driving 12 hrs./day, which isn't all that much shorter than Baker's time. The point being, the U.S. got better roads earlier than Australia did so riding a new Ariel across the U.S. in 1928 wouldn't have been as much of a challenge as riding a new Ariel around Australia in the 1950s.

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
BSA did a stunt runing a flock of Bantams around OZ ... no one managed to finish.
It's a good thing the Cannonball organizers refused my initial entry on a Bantam. They didn't refuse because it wasn't pre-1929, but because it was a Bantam and they wanted every competitor to be on a bike that at least had a chance of finishing.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #745013
08/09/18 7:19 pm
08/09/18 7:19 pm
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Canterbury, New Zealand
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Canterbury, New Zealand
I would not be so quick to write-off the trusty Bantam - I have a book written by a guy who rode one from Capetown all the way to London (or vice versa, I forget now) ! Would have made the Cannonball look like a practice ride smile

Last edited by BevanC; 08/09/18 8:03 pm.
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #745051
08/10/18 1:37 am
08/10/18 1:37 am
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Melbourne, Australia
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Villiers Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
There was an attempt to have a motorcycle round Australia trial but it never really got off the ground. It was held in 1954 and only covered 2,500 miles around New South Wales, Victoria and South Oz. It didn't seem to capture the public imagination like the car trials nor attract the same money to really have a go. Of course the usual NSW/Vic interstate squabbling didn't help. It was won outright by a Matchless 500 twin with second going to a 500 Matchless single and the Lightweight Class a draw between two 197 Francis Barnett. Villiers powered of course.

When you read through the reports you really get the message about the advantage conferred by decent suspension. Not that we'd consider the winners suspensions very good today but they were as good as you could get in their time and much less tiring to ride than most of their competitors bikes.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Villiers] #745061
08/10/18 3:43 am
08/10/18 3:43 am
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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The X-rings (UPS) and cork/neoprene (USPS) showed up today, as they should have, but not the oil seals. Now Amazon is showing Monday for the delivery. Call me spoiled for expecting things in two days, but it's what Amazon promised when I ordered them and I've planned around that expectation. I haven't kept records, but Amazon's not-on-time deliveries haven't been rare. Someone in their quality control department isn't keeping on top of things.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #745078
08/10/18 6:47 am
08/10/18 6:47 am
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England
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George Kaplan Offline
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
Call me spoiled for expecting things in two days, but it's what Amazon promised when I ordered them and I've planned around that expectation.


MM, I dont know how far from "civilisation" you are located but I dont think you can afford a 4 day delay given your deadlines. Surely there is a bearing or engineering supplier witin striking distance that you could get some seals from on Friday and therefore be able to get back on the road and get those essential test miles on the bike?

(BTW, the Amazon thing is not unique to the USA)


John

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #745088
08/10/18 9:01 am
08/10/18 9:01 am
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Posts: 79
Maida Vale, Western Australia
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Richard Kal Offline
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Good suggestion George,
Look for a Parker distributor; one of the world's leading seal manufacturers and fluid power companies (and all across the USA)

http://www.parker.com/portal/site/P...gnVCM10000048021dacRCRD&vgnextfmt=EN

Richard

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #745136
08/10/18 4:37 pm
08/10/18 4:37 pm
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by George Kaplan
I dont know how far from "civilisation" you are located
It depends on where a person lives. If you lived in New York City you'd think I'm nowhere near civilization.

Originally Posted by Richard Kal
Look for a Parker distributor;
I'm seldom without a Plan B, if not C and D (which is why I ordered seals and x-rings), and looking for the seals locally was one of those Plans. But, yesterday was too soon to panic and spend time on the phone that might not be necessary. In the first piece of good news, this morning UPS tracking showed the seals got to town at 5 am and the package is now listed as 'out for delivery'. Of course, UPS could deliver the package to the wrong house, which they've done several times in recent months.

The second piece of good news is the 19T engine sprocket arrived from Slovakia. I haven't seen it yet because no one was home yesterday to sign for the package, but I'll be able to pick it up from the local post office station when I go to Home Depot because of the third piece of good news.

Some years ago we hired a gardener/handyman to take care of the lawn and hedges, plus the repairs that were a source of constant irritation because my wife knew I could do them, but never seemed to. The guy was great. Unfortunately, last year his father got sick so he returned to Mexico to help build a house for him next to a sister's. However, Wednesday he returned and when my wife was showing him things she wanted taken care of she made the mistake of asking me if I had any work for him. So, after I pick up the sprocket this morning I'll go to Home Depot to get the wood needed for him, not me, to return the granddaughter's clubhouse to shipping container status. This will free up a full day on my to-do schedule.

After I return with the sprocket and wood I'll make the seal holder to clamp to the projection on the engine case. I'll try to leave the final cut until the seals are delivered rather than using the published OD. If all goes relatively smoothly the bike should be ready to ride tomorrow.

Even if future rides don't give me a reason to open the primary case I hope to find the time to do that anyway, swap the 19T sprocket to make sure it actually fits on the shaft, and cut a length of chain to make changing sprockets in a motel parking at the foot of the Rockies lot as quick and painless as possible. It may turn out that swapping sprockets won't be needed but, if it is, it's a lot easier to cut a chain to length in the comfort of the garage than outdoors at midnight in the rain.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #745144
08/10/18 6:03 pm
08/10/18 6:03 pm
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England
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George Kaplan Offline
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Originally Posted by Magnetoman
If you lived in New York City you'd think I'm nowhere near civilization.

Sounds similar to where I live too. I love New York and a few other big cities but I wouldn't want to live there

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
I'm seldom without a Plan B, if not C and D

I wouldnt expect anything else from you.

Originally Posted by Magnetoman
If all goes relatively smoothly the bike should be ready to ride tomorrow.

thumbsup


Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #745185
08/11/18 3:19 am
08/11/18 3:19 am
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As seen in the first photograph, I picked up the 19T sprocket and mating piece from the post office this morning. Especially since a spline is involved I'll want to check its fit before assuming I can rely on it.

I made the holder for the lip seal today. The crude drawing should be sufficient for anyone wanting to make one for their own Ariel, although they might want to wait to be sure it actually works on mine. Because of space constraints there isn't sufficient material on the holder for an O-ring seal to the engine but this shouldn't be an issue since it can be sealed with Yamabond, Permatex, RTV, or whatever. I don't think the 6-32 setscrew is actually necessary given the bonding force of the possible sealers, but there was room for it so why take a chance?

The 1.525" OD is determined by the clearance required for the links of the chain. The 1.385" ID gives me 0.002" clearance to the OD of the projection from my engine case. The other dimensions are determined by the 0.204" projection from my case along with the location of the back face of the sprocket when tightened on the shaft. Since this spacing is sensitive to the fit of the sprocket on the taper it, as well as other dimensions, is likely to be slightly different on another machine. Although I quote dimensions on the drawing to 0.001" it's not like that precision is required. In most cases it's just where the dimensions ended up as I made the holder to fit the case.

Attached Files Sprocket19T.jpgSealHolder01.jpgSealHolder02.jpgSealHolder03.jpgSealHolder04.jpg
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #745256
08/12/18 1:47 am
08/12/18 1:47 am
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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Despite not having time to work on the bike today, I took the time to seal the seal with Yamabond 4 so it would be ready tomorrow when I hope to have the time (other things intruded which I had no choice but to take care of). Yamabond is "semi-hardening" so I have to hope it works because it would make the seal holder more difficult to remove than had I used Permatex. But, what could possibly go rwong...?

I smeared Yamabond on the mating faces of the case and seal holder, as well as on the outside/inside diameters. A test fitting showed the Yamabond made complete contact so between it and the lip seal the oil will have no way out (typed with crossed fingers). Yes, I know the length of the setscrew is aesthetically displeasing but I only have 6-32 setscrews in that one length and it wouldn't work any better had I taken the time to grind it shorter.

Attached Files TimingSeal04.jpg
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #745264
08/12/18 3:50 am
08/12/18 3:50 am
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Posts: 360
Irene, South Africa
robcurrie Offline
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You could add another one or 2 setscrews which will help when the time comes that you need to lever the seal holder off, but you probably have a puller with jaws that can do that job. I'm positive your seal arrangement is going to work, now get some miles on the clock and build up some thick skin in the saddle region.

Rob C

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: robcurrie] #745338
08/13/18 1:25 am
08/13/18 1:25 am
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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Originally Posted by robcurrie
now get some miles on the clock
I had to finish something else that needs to be done before I leave for Maine and finally got home at 6pm so there was no time to ride today. But, I should be able to tomorrow.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #745440
08/14/18 4:47 am
08/14/18 4:47 am
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Magnetoman Online content OP

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U.S.
The conversion back from clubhouse to shipping crate took longer than expected, as well as took my active participation at times. By the time it was finished the weather had closed in for an afternoon monsoon storm. No one wants a trouble-free 200 mile ride more than I do, but I had already decided the magneto needed more attention before I installed it.

It had been bothering me that I had not tested the magneto as thoroughly as I should have given I would be relying on the existing (re)winding. So, I installed it on my long term tester and ran it for 20 min. at 2000 rpm (4000 rpm engine) with a 5 mm gap. As the photograph shows the current was high enough to heat the end of the stainless wire red hot so the magneto passed this test.

If you strain you can barely make out a slight blue at the 4:00 position in the second photograph, showing the arcing at the points was minimal, as it should be.

I then put it on my modified distributor tester and ran the speed down until it no longer would spark regularly. The magneto sparks down to 125 rpm (250 rpm engine). A Lucas manual says 300 rpm is a the low end of kick starting speeds, with 500 rpm normal, so the magneto passed this test.

Attached Files MagnetoTest01.jpgMagnetoTest02.jpgMagnetoTest03.jpg
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #745504
08/14/18 7:46 pm
08/14/18 7:46 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,197
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Online content
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Online Content
BritBike Forum member

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 4,197
Running from demons in WNY
The magneto spinner looks a good idea for a guy with a few magneto bikes/vehicles....Probably could make a jig for a drill press if it spins in the correct rotation..Or a lathe...Thanks for showing that...


I take off bike parts until it doesn't function, then put on just enough so it functions
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Hillbilly bike] #745549
08/15/18 2:20 am
08/15/18 2:20 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,850
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content OP

BritBike Forum member
Magnetoman  Online Content OP

BritBike Forum member

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,850
U.S.
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
The magneto spinner looks a good idea for a guy with a few magneto bikes/vehicles....
It's described in more detail here. The electromagnet is described here.

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