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Re: Lucas Rita ignition no sparky [Re: Hillbilly bike] #741804 07/13/18 11:42 pm
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Hi,

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
I just bought a Pazon EI

If you're buying from NZ, Al Osborn in GB has replacement Rita trigger units.

Regards,

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Re: Lucas Rita ignition no sparky [Re: NickL] #741812 07/14/18 1:15 am
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Originally Posted by NickL


The rotor gap is important, it should only be about 10 thou, the rotor must not contact the stator.
There should be no connection between the pickup connections and ground.
If you remove the box from the frame does it spark when the rotor is turned then?


I took off the grounding wire to the case...Holy crap it sparks when the pick is mounted and the engine kicked over........So what goes on, the case grounding is supposedly to protect the control box... Something inside has failed?

I bought the Pazon just to use and as a back up until mine retuns...


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Lucas Rita ignition no sparky [Re: Hillbilly bike] #741835 07/14/18 8:01 am
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Hi,

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Originally Posted by NickL
If you remove the box from the frame does it spark when the rotor is turned then?

I took off the grounding wire to the case...Holy crap it sparks when the pick is mounted and the engine kicked over.

[whisper]... I did point out earlier that the wire wasn't standard and shouldn't be required ...[/whisper]

Nevertheless, I'm intrigued ... for my education: was the box detached from the bike, or just the "grounding wire"? Reason I ask is Lucas and Triumph worked on the basis that the box protection worked simply through the box's original mounting. If everything's working with the box still attached to the bike, just the additional wire detached, something else is going on.

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
bought the Pazon just to use and as a back up until mine retuns...

Advance apologies if this is obvious already, but the Pazon can be plugged into the existing supply, return, coils and trigger wiring using the Rita's 3-pin plug and two bullet terminals.

Regards,

Re: Lucas Rita ignition no sparky [Re: Stuart] #741836 07/14/18 10:29 am
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Originally Posted by Stuart
Hi,

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Originally Posted by NickL
If you remove the box from the frame does it spark when the rotor is turned then?

I took off the grounding wire to the case...Holy crap it sparks when the pick is mounted and the engine kicked over.

[whisper]... I did point out earlier that the wire wasn't standard and shouldn't be required ...[/whisper]

Nevertheless, I'm intrigued ... for my education: was the box detached from the bike, or just the "grounding wire"? Reason I ask is Lucas and Triumph worked on the basis that the box protection worked simply through the box's original mounting. If everything's working with the box still attached to the bike, just the additional wire detached, something else is going on.

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
bought the Pazon just to use and as a back up until mine retuns...

Advance apologies if this is obvious already, but the Pazon can be plugged into the existing supply, return, coils and trigger wiring using the Rita's 3-pin plug and two bullet terminals.

Regards,


Stuart, in order for the "protection circuit" to function the case must be grounded as you know...The case is bolted to the metal side cover that's bolted to the metal air box that's bolted to the frame..That was the situation when I bought the running bike that also had a the ground wire installed and it appeared to be factory made..The wire is a redundant ground for whatever reasons..It's also my opinion the control box was never removed in the past. In fact the coils, wiring harness, charging system components and most of everything on the bike all look unmolested.
Although the stock rectifier and zenor tested good, and the system voltage was withing limits with good connections on the battery and the bike was running with the head light on and never reved over 4000 rpm..There was some sort voltage spike that killed the protection circuit on the control boxes. Interesting, the seller rode this bike for 5 years and the minute I get the bike it all goes to hell...
I bought a Podtroncs to replace the recitifer and zenor...The existing electronic ignition wiring will be tucked away and not used other than the switched ignition wire.
There's a lesson here...In the past I always went through the wiring harness and replaced all the connections and much of the wiring before riding the bike...On this one it was all original and appeared in good shape....so I left it as is...A clear violation of my own code .... grin


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Lucas Rita ignition no sparky [Re: Hillbilly bike] #741840 07/14/18 11:43 am
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Hi Tony,

Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
in order for the "protection circuit" to function the case must be grounded
The case is bolted to the metal side cover that's bolted to the metal air box that's bolted to the frame..That was the situation when I bought the running bike that also had a the ground wire installed and it appeared to be factory made..The wire is a redundant ground for whatever reasons..It's also my opinion the control box was never removed in the past.

Hmmm ... possibly the Rita's "protection device" ground path, just through bits of bike, stops working through the ageing process's accumulation of dirt and/or corrosion between the bits? The wire from the box mounting on your bike started out as good idea, but didn't work when needed because the other end was attached to a bolt in a rubber bush?

Putting bits of information together ... the original AB5 amp. on my first triple was rubber-mounted and had a wire from the case connected to the bike's Red wires; even when John (Carpenter - Mistral Engineering) upgraded that to an AB11, although it wasn't rubber-mounted, John still attached a wire from one of the mounting bolts into the bike's Red wires. So a wire from a '79-on twin's Rita box mounting is a good idea today, but the other end must be connected either to harness Black wires or battery -ve itself, not some random bit of bike?

Thanks for your help..

Regards,

Re: Lucas Rita ignition no sparky [Re: Stuart] #741844 07/14/18 1:29 pm
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Stuart...You explanation makes me think the wire isn't original.. or it was just what Meriden Co op did that day?

I took the AMP box apart....The only connection to the metal case is the black wire soldered to what looks like a diode mounted on the case. Following the printed circuit path, it travels from the diode? mounted on the case to the two retaining screws on the large power transistor and then to the white wire with black stripe that travels to the coil negative terminal...The new ignition coils have 12 volts feed into + on one coil,then the negative of that coil goes to the + of the second coil and the - of that coil is the white /black wire...Pretty simple....If the device mounted on the case is a diode, my meter says it's open in both directions.....I tested the various resistors in situation and they all have some value,none are open..I didn't test the power transistor or the several capacitors....
I was a construction electician, power distribution, big wires, big conduit...My knowledge of electronics is limited.....Any know what going on here? How can the case ground have any effect on operation when the "diode" is open in both directions? Is it some sort of trick zenor? There's a slight odor of burnt electronic components and the fiber disc on the "diode" is cracked and bulged up a bit....

[Linked Image]


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Lucas Rita ignition no sparky [Re: Hillbilly bike] #741847 07/14/18 2:41 pm
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Diode is a one way road

Re: Lucas Rita ignition no sparky [Re: bodine031] #741853 07/14/18 3:18 pm
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Originally Posted by bodine031
Diode is a one way road

Yes, with the case grounded as required, no spark...case not grounded, it's sparks....If the diode is open in both directions how does it have any effect on the sparking situation??? I suspect other components like the power transistor are part of this?


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Lucas Rita ignition no sparky [Re: Hillbilly bike] #741863 07/14/18 5:26 pm
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Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
....Any know what going on here? How can the case ground have any effect on operation when the "diode" is open in both directions? Is it some sort of trick zenor?



Varistor?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor

https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/Lucas-rita-ignition.11527/#post-159578
Originally Posted by dynodave

A genuine "A" version used a varistor for protection in either + or - ground.
A genuine "B" had deleted that build design though the instructions were never updated by Mistral. It used a specific new type transistor (boyer used same)....when that transistor production was terminated the Rita stopped production. Boyer had already moved to a different transistor and therefore did not affect them. Though I am still way too busy to solicit much work, both the "A" and "B" RITA that I repair are done as the "B" version without varistor and grounding the case does nothing.


Last edited by L.A.B.; 07/14/18 5:30 pm.
Re: Lucas Rita ignition no sparky [Re: L.A.B.] #741874 07/14/18 7:06 pm
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So is the signal going to ground??

Re: Lucas Rita ignition no sparky [Re: bodine031] #741885 07/14/18 8:04 pm
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Originally Posted by bodine031
So is the signal going to ground??

The transistor base is grounded as well as the diode thing...This circuit seems to be the trigger to fire the coils,,,The coil feed is always hot when the ignition is on..
Here's a circuit scematic from the internet...I don't know if it's dead accurate

[Linked Image]


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Lucas Rita ignition no sparky [Re: Hillbilly bike] #741947 07/15/18 10:52 am
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Nick, thanks for the explanations, there's a lot of crap on the internet.......


79 T140D, 96 900M Ducati ....On a bike you can out run the demons..
Re: Lucas Rita ignition no sparky [Re: Hillbilly bike] #742111 07/16/18 4:06 pm
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Re : Earthing the amplifier box -

"[whisper]... I did point out earlier that the wire wasn't standard and shouldn't be required ...[/whisper]"

Both my Rita-equipped Tiumphs came to me with the earthing wire fitted, similar to Hilbilly's. (I have no way of telling if it was OE fitting in either case, of course)

Owner's handbook (60-7091) for the Bonneville states under 'Electrical Equipment' :-
"IMPORTANT NOTE - The ignition system must only be operated with the amplifier case earthed"

Triumph's own wiring diagram in both this handbook and the workshop manual show the AB11 amplifier case earthed by what I interpret as a discrete (i.e. wired)
connection.

Triumph go further by listing this earth connection in '79 parts list 99-7102 and giving it part no. 60-7199 "Earth lead for amplifier box".

Makes it pretty standard for me...........I leave it for the experts out there to decide if it is/is not now redundant.


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