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A65L ignition key positions #739267
06/20/18 12:45 pm
06/20/18 12:45 pm
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 8
Sycamore, Ga., USA
C
Cbeard Offline OP
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Cbeard  Offline OP
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Posts: 8
Sycamore, Ga., USA
I have a '68 A65L. When the key is off its straight up at 90 degrees. I'm assuming the next clockwise click is normal running and the 3rd key position is for starting with a low battery. Is this correct?

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Re: A65L ignition key positions [Re: Cbeard] #739275
06/20/18 2:15 pm
06/20/18 2:15 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,261
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,261
Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted by Cbeard
'68 A65L. When the key is off its straight up at 90 degrees.

Correct on a standard switch.

Originally Posted by Cbeard
next clockwise click is normal running

Correct on a standard switch.

Originally Posted by Cbeard
3rd key position is for starting with a low battery. Is this correct?

Not on a standard switch. Standard switch has only off and on. The "starting with a low battery" facility was discontinued with 6V electrics in the mid-1960's.

If you look at the terminals on the back of the switch, a standard one has three or four male spades in a row. Otoh, if the switch you're looking at has three screw terminals in a circle, it's a pattern replacement.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: A65L ignition key positions [Re: Cbeard] #739280
06/20/18 2:59 pm
06/20/18 2:59 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,210
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

Parts Dealer
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Parts Dealer

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Posts: 1,210
Lancaster, California

Re: A65L ignition key positions [Re: Cbeard] #739362
06/21/18 7:23 am
06/21/18 7:23 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,876
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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Sydney Australia
Going to depend on the market requirement.
On - Off
On - Off - Off with parkers
On with headlights - On - Off - Off with parkers

Not going to sell many bikes in a market where it fails the leagal lighting requirements.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: A65L ignition key positions [Re: BSA_WM20] #739477
06/22/18 4:33 pm
06/22/18 4:33 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,261
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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Posts: 10,261
Scotland
Hi Trevor,

Originally Posted by Cbeard
'68 A65L.

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Going to depend on the market requirement.

'68 twins parts book lists just one ignition switch - Lucas 31899 is a 2-position off-on key switch - and one lighting switch - Lucas 35710 is a 3-position off-on-on lever switch. This is pretty-much common also on contemporary Triumphs, Nortons, RE's, Velos, etc.

If "parkers" were a legal requirement, that was fulfilled by connecting the lighting switch supply wire (Brown/White wire to lighting switch terminal #4) to the same ignition switch terminal as the supply from the battery (another Brown/White wire); turning off the ignition switch then didn't/doesn't isolate the lighting switch from the battery, so moving the lighting switch lever to its middle position lit the pilot bulb in the headlamp and the tail-lamp as "parkers".

Otoh, if "parkers" weren't/aren't required (e.g. in '68 in the US), the Brown/White lighting switch supply wire was/is connected to the same ignition switch terminal as the switched output (White or White/Blue wire); turning off the ignition switch then also isolates the lighting switch from the battery.

The alternative connections of the lighting switch supply wire to the ignition switch are shown in wiring diagrams.

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
On - Off - Off with parkers

Wasn't available in one switch on BSA's 'til the '71 key switch; "On with headlights" still required a separate on-off switch to be turned on.

'71-on wiring harness is completely different to match the different switches. Afaik, they weren't alternatives to the listed switches and wiring looms in '68.

I've described the most-likely alternatives for the o.p.; if a p.o. has grafted in a '71/'72 key switch, the o.p. would find three or four separate male spade terminals in a circle on one end of the switch, an additional click anti-clockwise from when the key is "straight up at 90 degrees" and likely a fair amount of messed-up wiring.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: A65L ignition key positions [Re: Cbeard] #739562
06/23/18 8:22 am
06/23/18 8:22 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,876
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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Posts: 3,876
Sydney Australia
Stuart,
Thanks for that.
I have parts book too so I know what was standard fitment.
I also know that BSA fitted a lot of special market parts to bikes that were not listed as options in parts books,
Performance parts for instance were never listed except in the accessories part book , Gold Stars excepted.
Then many of the special parts will only be found in dealer bulletins issued in the regions that got the special part.
Ever seen a part number for a kph speedo ?

The OP has a 3 position switch.

Considering the wear in just about every BSA ignition switch I have played with it would be a safe assumption that the switch fitted in not what the bike let the factory with.
Thus it will be a parkers switch with 2 positions that the key can be removed in or
A ligths switch with one position the key can be removed in.

Down here the 3 position switch powered a rotary or toggle on the headlamp which either powered the parking globe or the h-l switch on the handlebars.
However some of the USA imports had a 2 position switch with lights on all the time while others had a 3 position switch on them


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: A65L ignition key positions [Re: BSA_WM20] #739683
06/24/18 3:40 pm
06/24/18 3:40 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,261
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Scotland
Hi Trevor,

confused

Neither the ignition switch nor the lighting switch are "performance parts".

The o.p.'s first post starts "I have a '68 A65L". The information beside his post certainly on my version of the Forum says he's the US.

In 1968:-

. BSA was still a volume maker and exporter of motorcycles;

. "parkers" were (still are) a legal requirement in GB, met by the ignition switch and lighting switch in the '68 parts book, connected as shown in the workshop manual and owner's handbook;

. the US was still BSA's largest market;

. the US did not have a legal requirement for "parkers", nor has it done since ...

... so why would BSA contrive a different ignition switch, lighting switch and wiring harness to cater for a non-existent requirement in its largest market, not mention these different parts in any US publication, instead diagramming the parts in the parts book in the wiring diagrams in the workshop manual and owner's handbook? confused

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Down here

. If "parkers" were a legal requirement in Oz, if the ignition switch and lighting switch in the parts book, connected as in the workshop manual and owner's handbook, meet the requirement in GB, why would BSA contrive something completely unique for Oz, a smaller market than either the US or GB? confused

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
the 3 position switch powered a rotary or toggle on the headlamp which either powered the parking globe or the h-l switch on the handlebars.

This Lucas 3 position switch has never been mentioned before that I can find, although the subject of switches has come up on this and other internet forums innumerable times? This Lucas 3 position switch is not mentioned anywhere on Kim The CD Man's BSA or Triumph CD's/DVD's that I can find, although Kim compiled them primarily from material that came from Oz dealers?

Otoh, what you're describing appears to be:-

[Linked Image]

... available in the US for many years, that fits easily in place - both physically and electrically, probably intentionally - of either the standard Lucas 2- or 4-position ignition switches. Just the pictured switch isn't Lucas ...

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
some of the USA imports had a 2 position switch with lights on all the time while others had a 3 position switch on them

"2 position switch with lights on all the time" is the standard Lucas ignition switch and 35710 ('68) or 31788 lighting switch with the Brown/White supply wire connected to terminal 1 instead of terminal 4. That's what Meriden did on the '78 T140E's.

"3 position switch" is just that switch pictured above.

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Ever seen a part number for a kph speedo ?

'68 A50/A65 parts book pages '72/'73, no. 24. The book has French, German and Italian translations, France has measured in kilometres since the late 18th century, Germany and Italy since the early 19th century after the French invaded them.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: A65L ignition key positions [Re: Cbeard] #739829
06/25/18 2:39 pm
06/25/18 2:39 pm
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,876
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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Posts: 3,876
Sydney Australia
Cbeard, the original poster has a 3 position switch.
It is in his original post "and the 3rd key position is for starting with a low battery ? ".
BSA made their bikes in batches to order.
If you wanted then a different colour, or with different fitments, they made them provided a batch was big enough.
7 variations of the B40 military immediately comes to mind, made on the same track as all the other unit singles
210 Police Special A 65's for the South Australian police.
The Australian PO Bantams.
All of them different to the standard bikes and all of them with parts different to or not shown in the standard parts book
And of course don't forget the Bushman Bantam sold only in Australia & South Africa
Australia by the way was BSA's second biggest export market after the USA, and we bought a lot of bikes because unlike the USA, we had no volume motorcycle manufacturers down here so we imported nearly all our motorcycles.
And that only happened because of some sort of political problems in 1952, prior to which Australia was BSA's biggest export market.
The market here was more like the UK market where we rode motorcycles as transport, rather than week end fun machines as in the USA, but unlike the UK we have 300 sunny motorcycle friendly days a year.
In fact motorcycling was so popular here the RAC petitioned all state governments to tax motorcycle more than cars because motorcycles were preventing the growth of the car makers.
At one time motorcycles made up near 3/4 of all registered motor vehicles, before they were taxed, which went down further when the tax was raised to be higher than a standard 6 cylinder car.

The problem is most of the information comes out of the UK and is derrived from UK press releases or UK sales brouchures or UK parts books and as such ignores variants made for specific markets.
BSA would happily announce a USA only special in the UK press, knowing that would generate local demand for the machine but an Australian special C 10 or C 15 is not going to make the front page of the Blue or Green mags and would be lucky to get a mention in 6pt type.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: A65L ignition key positions [Re: BSA_WM20] #740067
06/27/18 7:26 pm
06/27/18 7:26 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,261
Scotland
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Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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Scotland
Hi Trevor,

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Cbeard, the original poster has a 3 position switch.
It is in his original post "and the 3rd key position is for starting with a low battery ? ".

Having been the first person to respond to the o.p., I'm well-aware of exactly what's in it. You are quoting selectively out of context.

The o.p.'s complete second sentence is, "When the key is off its straight up at 90 degrees. I'm assuming the next clockwise click is normal running and the 3rd key position is for starting with a low battery." (my underline).

Then the third sentence is, "Is this correct?"

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
The problem is most of the information comes out of the UK and is derrived from UK press releases or UK sales brouchures or UK parts books and as such ignores variants made for specific markets.
BSA would happily announce a USA only special in the UK press,

laughing Nonsense.

Firstly, the o.p. and bike are in the US; where in the UK and/or "derrived from UK press releases or UK sales brouchures or UK parts books" is any information whatsoever about an A65L variant with a 3-position Lucas ignition switch and special wiring loom specifically for the US market? C.B.S - a US-based parts dealer - has posted that the switch should be 2-position.

Secondly, by far the longest factual thread anywhere on this Forum is about the '70 A65's with Y-suffixed 1967- and 1968-style numbers. There was absolutely nothing about this in the UK, in "UK press releases or UK sales brouchures or UK parts books". The information in that thread came only from individuals, all over the world, the vast majority not in "the UK", only brought together by the internet and this Forum.

This Forum has been going for over twenty years, far-and-away the vast majority of past and present contributors are in the US and, if not the majority, a huge minority own(ed) BSA's. Are you seriously trying to argue that a Forum which can do the above, and many, many similar while I've been reading it, wouldn't have any information about an odd Lucas ignition switch?

Regards,

Re: A65L ignition key positions [Re: Cbeard] #740104
06/28/18 1:41 am
06/28/18 1:41 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,177
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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gavin eisler  Online Content
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Posts: 4,177
argyll. scotland, uk
Stay calm, the OP could have any old s/w bodged in , the third position switch disappeared when the zener diode and slightly less shitey rectifier happened, who knows what ignition s/w was fitted in a past life, plenty of brit cars had 3 pos s/ws,the extra turn for the starter., might be one of them?
My 68 A65 T had a two position switch.


71 Devimead A65 750
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The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: A65L ignition key positions [Re: Cbeard] #740149
06/28/18 4:53 pm
06/28/18 4:53 pm
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 207
UK Tyne & Wear
P
photobob Offline
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UK Tyne & Wear
I have a 1963 A65 and it has the original igntion swtich fitted it has 3 positions ign, off, emg. which is the position for emergency starting if you have the 6volt alternator you always had to run the bike in the ign position the emg was for starting with a low battery but as soon as the bike started you had to switch over to the normal ign position the bike will not run well in the emergency position. I have converted to 12volt system with pazon electronic ignition and now the original ignition switch will operate equally well on either ign or emg it makes know difference but you do not have an emergency start system if you have a low battery it will start but the pazon system automaticlly goes to full advance so you have to be careful of kick back.

Re: A65L ignition key positions [Re: gavin eisler] #740150
06/28/18 5:08 pm
06/28/18 5:08 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,261
Scotland
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Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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Scotland
Hi Gavin,

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
Stay calm,

No worries, not uncalm. smile

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
the OP could have any old s/w bodged in

Precisely; I was hoping that the o.p. would respond to my first post with answers that'd clarify what he was looking at.

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
the third position switch disappeared when the zener diode and slightly less shitey rectifier happened,

Mmmm ... the Lucas 88SA 3-position (EMG - OFF - IGN) switch fitted '62-on with 6V electrics stayed around for a couple of years after the change to 12V electrics over '65/'66. However, the loss of the extra 6V wiring for regulation and the "EMG" function effectively turned the 88SA ignition switch into a simple on-off, so the cheaper and less-compicated 2-position key switch was fitted '67-on. But, while it wouldn't be impossible to bodge in an 88SA in place of the key switch, the bodging would've been very obvious on a '68 bike.

Otoh, the 3-position key switch I pictured in an earlier post (Off - 1-on - Both-on) has been a common one in the US for years - amongst others Emgo peddle 'em. More to the point, they fit easily in both the '67-'70 2-position and '71/'72 4-position switches' mountings, with minimal bodging to either wiring.

Originally Posted by gavin eisler
plenty of brit cars had 3 pos s/ws,the extra turn for the starter.

Mmmm ... the o.p. didn't post that the third position was a 'spring-back-when-released' one, which I'd expect for a starter?

But, without a response from the o.p., we're all speculating ...

Regards,

Re: A65L ignition key positions [Re: photobob] #740154
06/28/18 5:26 pm
06/28/18 5:26 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,261
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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Scotland
Hi Bob,

Originally Posted by photobob
I have a 1963 A65 and it has the original igntion swtich fitted it has 3 positions ign, off, emg.

You posted while I was responding to Gavin's post. smile

As I posted for Gavin, the switch on your bike is a Lucas 88SA; otoh, the standard key switch on a '68 is a completely-different Lucas S45. Without the o.p. responding with more information, we can only speculate about what might be fitted to his bike and how it might be wired.

Hth.

Regards,


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