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Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #738564
06/13/18 2:44 am
06/13/18 2:44 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
listen, that old bike you have is something that people look for and seldom find. the sleds have a period mystique that you can keep by just cleaning em up and making em run.

don't try to "restore" it. just re-paint the dented oil tank. clean off the rust and re-paint everything. buy some well-used period rims. rebuild the motor. keep as many of the original beat-up parts on it as you can. 99 percent of what you need you can find at swap meets, eBay, or on this forum.

if you can fix an old CZ, then you have the skills needed for one of these. there's all kinds of information out there these days.

if you want one to ride around right now, buy another. most everybody here either has more than one bike, or would like to have more than one. but keep that sled and work with it a while.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
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Re: New to the site [Re: BSA_WM20] #738566
06/13/18 2:59 am
06/13/18 2:59 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
N
Normex Offline OP
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Normex  Offline OP
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Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Of particular importance is the fasteners list from Stainless Fasteners.
Download it and print out a copy for the workshop, single sided so you can make notes on the other side.
Nearly all of the fasteners on your bike are listed there, thread form, length & special finishes.


Thanks, I will download and print copies. It will be fun to learn what I can about the fasteners and the thread pitch.

Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
For my mind, a coat of matt clear over the original as found finish is always the way to go.
Having preserved the original finish means you have a piece of real motorcycle history under your bum......My usual recommendation ( taken with a grain of salt if you like ) is to get the engine & box done asap then bring the rest of the bike to rideable condition.


I like the sound of that.


1974 Bultaco Pursang 250
1974 Bultaco Pursang 125
1971 CZ 250 Yellow Tank
1963 Greeves Starmaker MS
1957 BSA Spitfire Scrambler
1971 Rickman BSA MK IV 441 Victor
Re: New to the site [Re: kevin roberts] #738567
06/13/18 3:12 am
06/13/18 3:12 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
N
Normex Offline OP
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Normex  Offline OP
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Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
listen, that old bike you have is something that people look for and seldom find. the sleds have a period mystique that you can keep by just cleaning em up and making em run.

don't try to "restore" it. just re-paint the dented oil tank. clean off the rust and re-paint everything. buy some well-used period rims. rebuild the motor. keep as many of the original beat-up parts on it as you can.


Thanks Kevin, to you and everyone else who've been so insightful with their suggestions. My short time on this site has already changed my approach to this bike, and I am so looking forward to keeping it as close to it's current state as possible..........except for maybe these gas tank supports. After downloading the spares list, I am now confident enough to say they are not original to the 57' spitfire scrambler.

[Linked Image]


1974 Bultaco Pursang 250
1974 Bultaco Pursang 125
1971 CZ 250 Yellow Tank
1963 Greeves Starmaker MS
1957 BSA Spitfire Scrambler
1971 Rickman BSA MK IV 441 Victor
Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #738568
06/13/18 3:34 am
06/13/18 3:34 am
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,488
Orygone
Boomer Offline

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Orygone
No, they are not original but you'd spend a dear amount of time finding the original ones that would fit whatever tank you plan on using. Personally I don't find it too cheeky to use plumbing insulation to wrap the frame under the tank. Which brings up another question, is the tank fiberglass or aluminum?


Bill B...


Boomer
Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #738569
06/13/18 3:40 am
06/13/18 3:40 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
maybe don't re-paint it, like trevor says. clean it, yes. then make a decision.

i remember an old humber in a car museum in oklahoma. owned at one time by winston churchill, they said. had masking tape covering up all the door seams.

why all the masking tape, i asked.

the man said, because winston churchill smoked pretty powerful cigars, and the inside still reeks of them.

nice car, it was. much more interesting not "restored."


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: New to the site [Re: kevin roberts] #738570
06/13/18 3:45 am
06/13/18 3:45 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,583
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content

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Magnetoman  Online Content

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Posts: 4,583
U.S.
Originally Posted by Normex
prices are very reasonable compared to doing a restoration myself.
If you do a restoration consisting of chrome, paint, and polish you can do it for the same cost as the next guy. The unfortunate truth is the majority of restorations aren't anything more than that. It takes money and time to restore the mechanical parts that aren't seen, and the market is set by the lower cost of the external-only restorations, which is why the majority of restorations are only skin deep.

Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #738704
06/14/18 11:07 am
06/14/18 11:07 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,769
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
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Sydney Australia
FWIW I never buy " restored" bikes
As MM noted, mostly it is cosmetic and rarely mechanical.
It is always prudent to consider every bike as a ground up rebuild.
Even bikes that were known to be running well can yield some very expensive surprises.
A friend just bought an A 10 from another club member that had been a very reliable bike that should only have needed a bit of a tidy up only to find all sorts of horrors inside ending up with a totalled engine on it's first run.
So you are doing it the "right" way and when you have finished you will know the bike inside out and be able to handle any roadside repairs with confidence.

As for the tank, check it very carefully.
Most fiberglass tanks go soft with use and in particular the use of modern fuels can soften the pollyester resins used in tanks of that period.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: New to the site [Re: BSA_WM20] #738759
06/14/18 11:36 pm
06/14/18 11:36 pm
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,151
Sydney, Oz
S
Shane in Oz Online content
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,151
Sydney, Oz
Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
It is always prudent to consider every bike as a ground up rebuild.

It is also prudent to have the crankshaft and con rods crack tested. I sent 2 A10 crankshafts out to be reground, and the crankshaft shop found cracks in both.
Aluminium alloys have a finite number of duty cycles, so it's probably worth replacing the con rods, especially in an ex-race machine. Allan Gill put me onto Thunder Engineering in the UK, and I must say their rods are excellent quality at a quite reasonable price. In the US, you also have MAP and Carillo.

These are fairly simple machines to work on, and will run forever if well put together. As Trevor noted, they will run well (for a while) even if they aren't put together well. If you can work to MM's standard, so much the better.

Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #738821
06/15/18 6:27 pm
06/15/18 6:27 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,208
Bolton Lancs UK
A
Andy Higham Offline
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A
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Posts: 1,208
Bolton Lancs UK
The only place for 50 year old rods is in the bin


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: New to the site [Re: Boomer] #738847
06/15/18 11:32 pm
06/15/18 11:32 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
N
Normex Offline OP
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Normex  Offline OP
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Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by Boomer
Is the tank fiberglass or aluminum?


This is what the tank looks like Bill. Crazing of the paint on the upside,

[Linked Image]

and the fiberglass underside.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I appreciate the effort that someone took with the tape and the paint for the added touch of period stripes.


1974 Bultaco Pursang 250
1974 Bultaco Pursang 125
1971 CZ 250 Yellow Tank
1963 Greeves Starmaker MS
1957 BSA Spitfire Scrambler
1971 Rickman BSA MK IV 441 Victor
Re: New to the site [Re: Magnetoman] #738850
06/16/18 12:00 am
06/16/18 12:00 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
N
Normex Offline OP
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Normex  Offline OP
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Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by Magnetoman
If you do a restoration consisting of chrome, paint, and polish you can do it for the same cost as the next guy. The unfortunate truth is the majority of restorations aren't anything more than that. It takes money and time to restore the mechanical parts that aren't seen, and the market is set by the lower cost of the external-only restorations, which is why the majority of restorations are only skin deep.


At this point I'm just so excited to get up to Seattle and start checking on documenting the bike, I don't want to set any more goals I can't meet, the story of my life. What I will commit to for now is to hold off on any cosmetic niceties, document the bike and look at keeping it as a bike that was raced in the Pacific Northwest 60 years ago. First I would like to see what is working and what isn't, brakes, cables and simple things. I won't be trying to start it, but instead want to see the condition of things like the oil tank, magneto, transmission, wheel bearings and anything that will not allow it to operate. Mostly though, I will be fighting the urge not to start taking things off (although I really want to see how bad those rims and hubs are).

[Linked Image]


1974 Bultaco Pursang 250
1974 Bultaco Pursang 125
1971 CZ 250 Yellow Tank
1963 Greeves Starmaker MS
1957 BSA Spitfire Scrambler
1971 Rickman BSA MK IV 441 Victor
Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #739621
06/23/18 11:51 pm
06/23/18 11:51 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
N
Normex Offline OP
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Normex  Offline OP
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Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
I am going to try to get the Spitfire registered in Washington. I want to put together a kit like the one that was offered for the spitfire in '57. I like the idea of racers riding their bike to an event, and then beforehand removing the lighting gear, only to put it back on after the race. I think the kit offered by BSA was a bates headlight mounted on the lower headstock, with a Sparto type taillight. I guess there would be a brake light switch, headlight switch and maybe even the owner would install a speedometer for highway use. I am not sure if I would need a generator, but so far I have gathered a few items, but am also still shopping for a headlight and drive for a speedometer. I'd like to keep things period correct, but not necessarily numbers matching, just something similar to what an owner would have installed in the late 50's.

[Linked Image]


1974 Bultaco Pursang 250
1974 Bultaco Pursang 125
1971 CZ 250 Yellow Tank
1963 Greeves Starmaker MS
1957 BSA Spitfire Scrambler
1971 Rickman BSA MK IV 441 Victor
Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #739631
06/24/18 2:21 am
06/24/18 2:21 am
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 47
Pacific NW
9
998John Offline

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998John  Offline

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9
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 47
Pacific NW
I've registered a few of my old bikes in Wa. It's not too difficult like in Ca. Speaking about the streetable kit sold by BSA, I just picket up a 67 Hornet with such a kit.
This particular model came with a tach only and a plugin for the electrics that came off the alternator. Should be easy to complete since most of the kit was standard parts for other BSA's. Your bike will qualify for 'horseless carriage' status and that is a one time registration fee, no annual fees. Good luck with your project. Just finished restoration on a DBD34 this week.

Re: New to the site [Re: 998John] #739687
06/24/18 4:22 pm
06/24/18 4:22 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
N
Normex Offline OP
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Normex  Offline OP
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Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by 998John
Speaking about the streetable kit sold by BSA, I just picket up a 67 Hornet with such a kit.
This particular model came with a tach only and a plugin for the electrics that came off the alternator.


Thanks John. If you have any details or pictures you could post or PM me, I'd like to start searching for parts.

Originally Posted by 998John
I've registered a few of my old bikes in Wa. It's not too difficult like in Ca.Your bike will qualify for 'horseless carriage' status and that is a one time registration fee, no annual fees.


The tricky part for me will be my only partial residency in Washington, not permanent. But I do have another bike registered in Washington, so I hope I can make a good case.

[Linked Image]


1974 Bultaco Pursang 250
1974 Bultaco Pursang 125
1971 CZ 250 Yellow Tank
1963 Greeves Starmaker MS
1957 BSA Spitfire Scrambler
1971 Rickman BSA MK IV 441 Victor
Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #739892
06/26/18 12:42 am
06/26/18 12:42 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
N
Normex Offline OP
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Normex  Offline OP
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Los Angeles, CA
I have managed to gather a few items for the spitfire, a rear taillight, an oil tank, and some odds and ends. I am still trying to suss out the headlight, and would love to have a kickstand so I can stop propping it up with a jack stand. My goal is to fight the urge to start taking things apart, and really inspect the bike when I get to Seattle mid week. I plan to clean it up a bit to uncover what is underneath.

[Linked Image]

I got this tank a couple of years ago, and put it on the bike just to see what it would look like. It's probably an abomination on a spitfire, but i've always loved the 441 tank.

[Linked Image]

Funny how just putting a nice tank on a worn out bike makes it immediately changes its look. Of course the warm mood lighting in the background also helps.


1974 Bultaco Pursang 250
1974 Bultaco Pursang 125
1971 CZ 250 Yellow Tank
1963 Greeves Starmaker MS
1957 BSA Spitfire Scrambler
1971 Rickman BSA MK IV 441 Victor
Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #739924
06/26/18 9:09 am
06/26/18 9:09 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,769
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
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Sydney Australia
Yes and the B44 tank actually looks beter than the original .


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #739948
06/26/18 4:12 pm
06/26/18 4:12 pm
Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 26
CALIFORNIA
S
slow learner Offline
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CALIFORNIA
You say you have found a replacement oil tank. I hope it is correct for your bike. There are different versions of the pre-unit oil tank. The obvious difference is whether it is a "flat" or more rounded shape. Less obvious is the location of the "T" mounting bolt bracket. This bracket is a little higher on earlier tanks and on all goldstar tanks than on some used on later A10s and other singles. The later tank will put the T bolt at a bad angle on a bike which should have the other type. I have a Bates hedalight (I think still) and maybe even a bracket available if you need one.


Laurence Luce
Re: New to the site [Re: slow learner] #740202
06/29/18 2:35 am
06/29/18 2:35 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
N
Normex Offline OP
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Los Angeles, CA
Thanks for the tip Laurence, as soon as I get it I will post a picture. I can take the public shaming for the sake of education! I will pm you on the headlight and bracket.


1974 Bultaco Pursang 250
1974 Bultaco Pursang 125
1971 CZ 250 Yellow Tank
1963 Greeves Starmaker MS
1957 BSA Spitfire Scrambler
1971 Rickman BSA MK IV 441 Victor
Re: New to the site [Re: BSA_WM20] #740213
06/29/18 5:27 am
06/29/18 5:27 am
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,488
Orygone
Boomer Offline

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Boomer  Offline

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Posts: 3,488
Orygone
Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
Yes and the B44 tank actually looks beter than the original .



Say what?????


I realize it's a matter of taste but the Victor tank is way too short for a PU frame, IMO.


Bill B...

Last edited by Boomer; 06/29/18 5:29 am.

Boomer
Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #740881
07/05/18 10:02 pm
07/05/18 10:02 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
N
Normex Offline OP
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Normex  Offline OP
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Los Angeles, CA
[Linked Image]

I made it up to Seattle, and after a week settling in, I’ve gotten around to Cleaning the bike again. I am going to do a pretty thorough inspection, so I need to dig some of the caked on grease off to identify parts and their condition. I pulled the custom shag carpet tank pads off the top of the frame, keeping in mind that the last time they were probably touched was 40 or 50 years ago. The electrical tape they were wrapped with was fabric as opposed to plastic.

[Linked Image]

It’s looking a bit cleaner.


1974 Bultaco Pursang 250
1974 Bultaco Pursang 125
1971 CZ 250 Yellow Tank
1963 Greeves Starmaker MS
1957 BSA Spitfire Scrambler
1971 Rickman BSA MK IV 441 Victor
Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #740888
07/05/18 10:29 pm
07/05/18 10:29 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
N
Normex Offline OP
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Normex  Offline OP
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Los Angeles, CA
[Linked Image]

I might as well start with the easiest to uncover. The AMAL is numbered 389/22 8, which according to billymegawatt.com (thanks MM), originally was used on a 1957-59 AJS 650. So, not from a ‘57 nor ‘59 Spitfire. This phantom racer had to replace not only the engine but the carburetor as well. Onward to find out what more was swapped.


1974 Bultaco Pursang 250
1974 Bultaco Pursang 125
1971 CZ 250 Yellow Tank
1963 Greeves Starmaker MS
1957 BSA Spitfire Scrambler
1971 Rickman BSA MK IV 441 Victor
Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #740963
07/06/18 3:13 pm
07/06/18 3:13 pm
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 556
Kansas City area
BritTwit Offline

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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 556
Kansas City area
Normex
If your interested, I have a nice complete 376/89 Monobloc. The AMAL listing shows the application as for BSA 650 American Scr. Twin. (1957-1958)
Complete with throttle, fuel lines and the alloy screw on intake ring (for rubber air box connector)
i was planning to list it on eBay shortly but will hold off if your interested.
$75.00 plus shipping
BtitTwit
I also have an original air cleaner assembly

Re: New to the site [Re: BritTwit] #740971
07/06/18 6:08 pm
07/06/18 6:08 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
N
Normex Offline OP
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Normex  Offline OP
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Los Angeles, CA
BT,

I would be interested. I will pm you with my contact info.


1974 Bultaco Pursang 250
1974 Bultaco Pursang 125
1971 CZ 250 Yellow Tank
1963 Greeves Starmaker MS
1957 BSA Spitfire Scrambler
1971 Rickman BSA MK IV 441 Victor
Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #741632
07/12/18 3:14 pm
07/12/18 3:14 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
N
Normex Offline OP
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Normex  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 27
Los Angeles, CA
In trying to get the registration for this bike in Washington, I checked with licensing and they had no record of it on their system. I was able to contact the guy that sold it to me two years ago, and although he is being very helpful, has no idea how to contact the person he bought it from. He did say however, that he thought his seller may have gotten the Spitfire from his brother who could have been the original owner. I am going to keep on the path that this was a Washington bike, used for desert racing on Washington. I would venture it was imported through Hap Alzina in Oakland CA, and then brought up to Washington.

I spoke to a gentleman up here last week who told me that a relative of his had been big into desert racing in Washington in the 60’s, and that there was a big annual race back then. Yes, Washington has some desert region and actually quite a range of different topographies from rainforest to arid.


1974 Bultaco Pursang 250
1974 Bultaco Pursang 125
1971 CZ 250 Yellow Tank
1963 Greeves Starmaker MS
1957 BSA Spitfire Scrambler
1971 Rickman BSA MK IV 441 Victor
Re: New to the site [Re: Normex] #741669
07/12/18 10:15 pm
07/12/18 10:15 pm
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 228
Illinois
Spitfire Ken Offline

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Spitfire Ken  Offline

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Posts: 228
Illinois
I also have a 57 spitfire. I put a lighting kit on it when I first bought the bike. but after riding the bike I decided the trans ratios made it unsuitable for my tastes for street use. I would sell the complete setup lights (Sparto and Bates), generator, switches and wiring. if you are interested PM me.


I APOLOGIZE FOR THE USE OF CAPS. I CAN ONLY TYPE WITH MY RIGHT HAND SO USING THE SHIFT KEY IS BEYOND MY CAPABILITES.

The Devil is in the details.

1957 BSA A10 Spitfire Scrambler (numbers matching, very correct, very nice condition)
1965 BSA A65 Lightning Rocket "Clubman" (restored)
1966 BSA A65 Spitfire MK-II (restored)
1967 BSA A65 West Coast Hornet (under rstoration)
2001 Kawasaki W650
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