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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #737137
05/30/18 10:07 pm
05/30/18 10:07 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,841
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline
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Running from demons in WNY
I don't have any measuring tools like that....I'm impressed by the precision some use...I don't like engine work..My world was a tape measure and levels to bend conduit. to a 1/16 inch tolerance.. grin


I ride dinosaurs....
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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #737148
05/30/18 10:53 pm
05/30/18 10:53 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP
fefsa
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ohio, usa
well, i'm trying to understand what's going on, and if i don't measure things i never know what i did and whether it worked. so what i do is look real scientific-like with tooling and then don't clean out the old oil tank well enough and embed debris in the bearings.

but what you do works, and you haven't blown up yet.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #738099
06/09/18 12:02 am
06/09/18 12:02 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP
fefsa
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timed the intake cam in a spare moment after work. ran it at about 101.5 before, wanted to try for about 104.

[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]

i can maybe do without loctite, but i can never ever do without paint pens.

looks like 106.4 is as close as i'll be able to get. measured three settings per keyway: as near as spot on as possible, and then one tooth CW and one CCW. lining up the numbers in order, all the timings ran in a series 4.8 degrees apart except right where i was interested: 97.2, 100.1, 106.4, and 111.3, 116.2 . . . if my measurements are correct then the one keyway i needed appears to be a bit off. or maybe one tooth is cut slightly askew.

i'll double check tomorrow and then do the exhaust. needed about 107 there. will see what i can do.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #738139
06/09/18 10:08 am
06/09/18 10:08 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,841
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline
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Running from demons in WNY
Try a different cam wheel...I think 105 is good, 106 might be slightly too far..


I ride dinosaurs....
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: Hillbilly bike] #738151
06/09/18 1:42 pm
06/09/18 1:42 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP
fefsa
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swapping for the other one didnt help yesterday.

but i have two others from the back up motor i can try. it would be nice to go to mid ohio and buy half a dozen, but i'll be in maine.

going to double check first


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #738178
06/09/18 7:19 pm
06/09/18 7:19 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 471
Cork Ireland
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chaterlea25 Offline
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Cork Ireland
Hi Kevin,
In situations like on your engine stepped keys can be made up to fine tune the valve timing

John

Last edited by chaterlea25; 06/09/18 7:20 pm.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: chaterlea25] #738180
06/09/18 8:14 pm
06/09/18 8:14 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP
fefsa
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ohio, usa
i looked online but i couldn't discover anyone making one specifically for these motors.

i'm hoping i either made an error or another of the cam wheels i have will be slightly different.

away from the shop right now on a well pad, but i'll look again this evening.

[Linked Image]


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #738188
06/09/18 9:30 pm
06/09/18 9:30 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,841
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline
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Running from demons in WNY
One degree one way or another won't make a difference...But I think 106 might be going over the other side so to speak. There's a lot going on moving both cams, changes lobe separation angle, overlap and individual cam lobe centerlines...The exhaust pipe length may need to be changed....

Quote
Retarding the intake and advancing the exhaust (“spreading the centers”) decreases overlap and should result in a wider power band at the sacrifice of some top end power. This condition would be indicated by higher numerical values on both intake and exhaust lobe centers. By moving only one cam the results are less predictable, but usually it is the intake that is moved to change power characteristics since small changes here seem to have a greater effect. With twin cam engines we have the luxury of moving the cams independently.


Quote

Very generally speaking, the effect of moving lobe centers is as follows:
Advancing the intake and retarding the exhaust (“closing up the centers”) increases overlap and should move the power up in the RPM range, usually at the sacrifice of bottom end power. The result would be lower numerical values on both intake and exhaust lobe centers.


I ride dinosaurs....
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #738206
06/10/18 12:24 am
06/10/18 12:24 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP
fefsa
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ohio, usa
i agree. jim duer at megacycle reccommended starting this cam out at 103/105, and going from there.

i don't have time to mess with it this evening, but the possible timings i got from three keyways day before yesterday, three teeth measured at each one, while bracketing what was available for 104 ATDC were these:

83.05
87.7
92.65
97.2
100.05
106.35
111.25
116.2
120.85


in general, these numbers would allow me to use the camwheel keyways to move the timing to get within 2.4 degrees of whatever i wanted. the problem was that the keyway and tooth that should have given me 104.85 gave me 106.35 instead. i need to look closely at that tooth, really. but no time tonight. got stuck on a well pad all day and got home late.

if i don't get to a dyno before i leave, i have five days to tune at the track. i can work with jetting, timing, and pipe length on the fly, because we'll have five days.

Last edited by kevin roberts; 06/11/18 3:45 pm.

i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #738308
06/10/18 11:40 pm
06/10/18 11:40 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP
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a spare moment. set the intake cam at the centerline, ran it again, 106.4.

swapped for the exhaust camwheel, same keyway. 106.7, 106.5

ordered a set of 65 T120 timing gears on eBay (excellent price). i'll check those, as well as the two from the backup motor.

this is so consistent i'm concluding that i must be not understanding something. all the other timings are a consistent angular distance apart, until this, which breaks the sequence and is the same on two different cam wheels.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #738352
06/11/18 11:01 am
06/11/18 11:01 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 185
Nova Scotia, Canada
K
koncretekid Offline
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Nova Scotia, Canada
Kevin,
Duplicate post; sorry.
Tom

Last edited by koncretekid; 06/11/18 11:12 am.

Life's uncertain - go fast now!
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #738353
06/11/18 11:05 am
06/11/18 11:05 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 185
Nova Scotia, Canada
K
koncretekid Offline
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Nova Scotia, Canada
Kevin,
I don't know Triumph timing wheels, but it appears that the crank gear is 25 teeth and the cam gear is 50 teeth. It also appears that you have 3 keyways in your cam gear. If you only have one keyway in your crank gear, the only changes your can make are 360º/ 25/ 3 = 4.8º, not 2.4º (I'm assuming you can't turn the camshaft gear over to give you 3 more variables). This is because we are measuring changes in crankshaft degrees, not camshaft degrees. The only way to get more options would be to get a camshaft gear with more keyways, or an offset key, or a crankshaft gear with multiple keyways but that would also change your exhaust cam timing. I remember guys using offset keys years ago on Chevy V-8s, so they are not uncommon. You can make one by getting a wider key than standard and filing the bottom narrower on one side and the top narrower on the other.

So you ran with the intake valve center at 101.5º last year and now you will only be able to get 4.8º either side of this, or 106.3 or 96.7º. I've also noticed that I cannot read lift vs. degrees any closer than 1º variance due to backlash, so I wouldn't worry about 1º differences in reading from one trial to another. The other thing that can make a difference, at least on the BSA single, is whether the outer timing case is in place or not because it ensures that the camshaft can't move sideways, although it probably doesn't make any difference on the Twins with cams supported at each end, unless the idler gear can twitch a bit.

For what it's worth, I run my intake timing late and my exhaust timing early (single cam; can't change one without affecting the other) with good results.

Tom

Last edited by koncretekid; 06/11/18 11:06 am.

Life's uncertain - go fast now!
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: koncretekid] #738385
06/11/18 4:47 pm
06/11/18 4:47 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP
fefsa
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cant turn the camwheels over because the threaded boss to pull them is only on one side, although i can turn tbe idler over. was going to try that last night, but ran out of time. later camwheels have puller holes, and its possible they might be flipped. dunno about alignment.

youre right that i can only move the timing 4.8 degrees at a time with tbe keyways, but if i'm looking for some specific number, i can pick which of the two bracketing keyways is closer to what i want. right in the middle is 2.4 degrees from either keyway, and thats where i am with 104-- its 2.4 from 101.6, and 2.4 from 106.4.

i don't take the decimals seriously, tom. i can read a dial indicator or timing wheel to 1/10 of the gradations, but youre right, machining tolerances and wear consume that precision in reality. i just save them all up and round off at the end.

in the end, there's nothing magic about tbe exact numbers. but i'm still hoping another camwheel with some machining variation will let me test at a smaller initial advance than what i have. if not, i'm moving on and that's what she'll run.

you'll be at loring right? which machine?



i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #738435
06/11/18 11:14 pm
06/11/18 11:14 pm
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 3,892
Aus
N
NickL Offline
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NickL  Offline
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Posts: 3,892
Aus
Filing up offset keys is standard practice on beezers. It takes a while but it's only time.
Start with a couple of bigger keys if you can't get hold of key square (key steel)

I'd be surprised if you can measure a 2 deg difference in cam timing in terms of power output on these heaps anyway.

Last edited by NickL; 06/11/18 11:17 pm.

Lamas are bigger than frogs.
No room for sanity here.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #738447
06/12/18 12:10 am
06/12/18 12:10 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,008
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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argyll. scotland, uk
You can off set a key by getting it in a vise, and whacking it side ways with a suitable chisel,, heat and chisels, woo hoo, cheap, try a few , filing needed.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
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Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #738448
06/12/18 12:13 am
06/12/18 12:13 am
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 185
Nova Scotia, Canada
K
koncretekid Offline
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Nova Scotia, Canada
Kevin,
Turning the idler over won't make any difference. When the crank turns 10 teeth (or whatever), the idler turns 10 teeth which turns the camshaft 10 teeth. The idler doesn't come into the equation.

Yes I'm coming to Loring. I'll have the 600cc B50 APS bike, and a new one, a TR25, for when I want to go slower! I might bring the Bridgestone, too.

And Nick, I agree that 2 degrees probably won't make any difference, but who knows what works best in the mile-and-a-half? I would try the 4.8º change and maybe learn something.

Tom

Last edited by koncretekid; 06/12/18 12:35 am.

Life's uncertain - go fast now!
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: koncretekid] #738452
06/12/18 12:47 am
06/12/18 12:47 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
Originally Posted by koncretekid
Kevin,
Turning the idler over won't make any difference. When the crank turns 10 teeth (or whatever), the idler turns 10 teeth which turns the camshaft 10 teeth. The idler doesn't come into the equation.


i was wondering if one side of the teeth might be worn more than the other. shouldn't have made a difference, but i'm curious about any of this.

Quote

Yes I'm coming to Loring. I'll have the 600cc B50 APS bike, and a new one, a TR25, for when I want to go slower! I might bring the Bridgestone, too.


cool


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: gavin eisler] #738453
06/12/18 12:47 am
06/12/18 12:47 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP
fefsa
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
You can off set a key by getting it in a vise, and whacking it side ways with a suitable chisel,, heat and chisels, woo hoo, cheap, try a few , filing needed.


gavin, i don't know whether to believe you or not when you write things like this.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: NickL] #738457
06/12/18 12:54 am
06/12/18 12:54 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP
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kevin roberts  Online Content OP
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ohio, usa
Originally Posted by NickL
Filing up offset keys is standard practice on beezers. It takes a while but it's only time.
Start with a couple of bigger keys if you can't get hold of key square (key steel)

I'd be surprised if you can measure a 2 deg difference in cam timing in terms of power output on these heaps anyway.


whatever i can get tomorrow is what i'll run with this time around.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #738853
06/16/18 12:22 am
06/16/18 12:22 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,008
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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argyll. scotland, uk
I am not sure whether to believe it either.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #738854
06/16/18 12:48 am
06/16/18 12:48 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP
fefsa
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you know what, though? i'm going to get some keys and a fresh file and try. the problem is that they're curved on the bottom to fit the cut in the cam, and they're way small to boot, so tbey're hard to hold in any vise that i have right now.

but that will be a later iteration. right now after numerous attempts and multiple cam wheels, i'm going to run the timing at 106.5/109. the alternative is about 102/104.5, which is what i ran before, i think. i measured the timing on opening/closing at 0.020 before.

spent the day claying the pistons with the later valve timing. had around 0.060 on the intake and 0.120 on the exhaust. i suppose i'm giving up a bit of compression with the valve pockets that far away, but at least it should survive my ham-fisted throttle control.

checked the clearance under the tappet blocks, too. that was an issue when i first assembled this motor. tightest there was 0.050, i think. i've raised the blocks with shims, so i'm using dave madigan's adjustable push rod tubes to compensate.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #739438
06/22/18 1:48 am
06/22/18 1:48 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
marked the bob newby pulley so i can time the magneto with a strobe light:

[Linked Image]

the pulley has a drilled mark that i've never figured out, 52 BTDC. can't get it any close to 38, or TDC, or anything.

i ran this machine at 38 BTDC before, and just used a little punch mark i made at 38 to time it. wanted to make sure i did a better job this time, and so i hooked up the degree wheel on the other side so i wouldn't have to take it off and maybe disturb the crank at the settings i wanted to mark:

[Linked Image]

but the punch mark turned out to be dead-on at 38, so i was fussing needlessly:

[Linked Image]

ran out of light before i got the gearbox together. i'll do that tomorrow morning and then fuss with the pushrod tubes. then it's into the frame.

not a lot of time left before next month, but there wasn't much to do, really. as long as i don't discover something seriously wrong, i'll be okay.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #739460
06/22/18 11:59 am
06/22/18 11:59 am
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 485
new jersey usa
P
pushrod tom Offline
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I think that hole is for safety wiring the crank nut. PRT

Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #739479
06/22/18 5:41 pm
06/22/18 5:41 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Online content OP
fefsa
kevin roberts  Online Content OP
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,128
ohio, usa
well, shoot, that's a good idea. i've been using blue loctite.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: mail-order LSR [Re: kevin roberts] #739573
06/23/18 12:35 pm
06/23/18 12:35 pm
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 485
new jersey usa
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pushrod tom Offline
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