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72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards #735095
05/13/18 9:30 am
05/13/18 9:30 am
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 114
Gippsland Australia
O
ogrilp400 Offline OP
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Gippsland Australia
G'day All,
There seems to be a variation of front guards for these model Triples and also the twins. I see that the difference is in the section forward of where the wire is welded to the mudguard. Some are short and some longer. What is supposed to be fitted to what?

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Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: ogrilp400] #735099
05/13/18 9:56 am
05/13/18 9:56 am
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,076
Scotland
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Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi,

Longer were certainly fitted to British-market bikes because then we had a legal requirement for a front numberplate mounted lengthways on the front 'guard in front of the forks. Otoh, the US didn't have that requirement so had less length ahead of the forks. So what turned up in Oz likely depended on the legal requirements at the time?

Btw, the wire-mounted 'guards are '71/'72 and Hurricane only. They had a bad rep. for fracturing between the 'guard and the wire, at least one fractured at all four points, the 'guard rotated around the front wheel and crashed the bike; because it was in the US, the rider successfully sued Triumph for a lot of money. So I'm surprised the Hurricane had wire-mounted front 'guards when the early '73 twins built with conical forks had the T100 chromed 'guard with the hoop-shaped "stays", attached to the bracket used on the non-disc slider of disc-brake forks.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: Stuart] #735163
05/13/18 9:28 pm
05/13/18 9:28 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,069
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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Gnashville
Originally Posted by Stuart


Btw, the wire-mounted 'guards are '71/'72 and Hurricane only. They had a bad rep. for fracturing between the 'guard and the wire, at least one fractured at all four points, the 'guard rotated around the front wheel and crashed the bike; because it was in the US, the rider successfully sued Triumph for a lot of money. So I'm surprised the Hurricane had wire-mounted front 'guards when the early '73 twins built with conical forks had the T100 chromed 'guard with the hoop-shaped "stays", attached to the bracket used on the non-disc slider of disc-brake forks.

The Hurricane still used the comical front end for looks.
I hadn't heard about the wire stay fractures on stock bikes. But, I can confirm that one of those fenders didn't last long on my disc front end. Too wide between mounts.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V yet to be named
Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: ogrilp400] #735189
05/14/18 2:19 am
05/14/18 2:19 am
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,756
ca, us
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DMadigan Offline
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DMadigan  Offline
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ca, us
Hard to imagine all four wires fractured at the same time. More like shoddy maintenance. This is similar to the guy that left the side stand down on his H*nda, made a left and crashed. Of course it was H*nda's fault and they paid which is why side stands acquired the rubber tab to kick them up if left down. Now the ignition is cut with a switch.
This is the long nose mudguard:
[Linked Image]
The short one ends about at the base of the 7.

Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: ogrilp400] #735191
05/14/18 3:09 am
05/14/18 3:09 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,096
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline
fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,096
ohio, usa
i've never seen one of those long ones.

one of the wire stays broke loose on my 72 around 1985. had it brazed for five bucks and it's been fine ever since.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: DMadigan] #735200
05/14/18 4:11 am
05/14/18 4:11 am
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 5,069
Gnashville
DavidP Offline

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DavidP  Offline

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Gnashville
Originally Posted by DMadigan
This is similar to the guy that left the side stand down on his H*nda, made a left and crashed. Of course it was H*nda's fault and they paid which is why side stands acquired the rubber tab to kick them up if left down. Now the ignition is cut with a switch.

My Beemer has this switch. Can't start the bike on the side stand.
We got a good laugh once when the fastest rider in the local Norton club took off with his side stand down. Of course, nobody could catch him to tell him. The result was inevitable.
On my Brit bikes I always retract the stand before the first kick.


Stepping on others doesn't make you stand tall.

71 A65L "Zelda"
92 BMW K100rs "Gustav"
72 T120V cafe project "Mr. Jim"
72 T150V yet to be named
Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: DMadigan] #735265
05/14/18 5:31 pm
05/14/18 5:31 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,076
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,076
Scotland
Hi,

Originally Posted by DavidP
The Hurricane still used the comical front end for looks.

So did about 500 650 twins built at the beginning of the '73 season. But, as I say, they were fitted with the same front mudguard/fender as the T100.

Originally Posted by DavidP
I hadn't heard about the wire stay fractures on stock bikes.

Originally Posted by DMadigan
Hard to imagine all four wires fractured at the same time. More like shoddy maintenance.

The story is in one of John Healy's posts. If Meriden changed the fender at the beginning of the '73 season as a result of the court case, it was likely a '71 fender broken in the first year. What "maintenance" is required on - at most - a one-year-old fender? confused

Originally Posted by DavidP
I can confirm that one of those fenders didn't last long on my disc front end. Too wide between mounts.

Plus the disc on only one leg twists the forks if you grab a real handful. frown Did on my T160's with the later 'brace'/fender mounting but, as standard, '73 and '74 disc forks had a variation of the pre-'71 'hoop' stays, with wider stays.

Hth.

Regards,

Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: ogrilp400] #735275
05/14/18 6:42 pm
05/14/18 6:42 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,756
ca, us
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DMadigan Offline
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DMadigan  Offline
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" What "maintenance" is required on - at most - a one-year-old fender?" - These bikes vibrate which can cause cracks, plus all the potholes in the roads over here. Do you ever inspect your bike before riding? True, a mudguard should last longer than that and the wire support was a poor design, holding it on four long flexible wires. The earlier wire mudguard had shorter welds where the wire meets the mudguard.
"Plus the disc on only one leg twists the forks if you grab a real handful" - Have you tried replacing the caliper with a bar then try to twist the slider? The mount will bend before the slider twists measurably. If the axle nuts are not tight the slider might rotate on the axle about the stanchion but it is not going to twist the forks since it pivots around the stanchion. The twist created by the caliper force is reacted by the axle which will bend slightly.
The wheel reaction is going to put essentially equal load into the axle and both sliders when braking straight up and the wheel centered between the sliders. The torque about the axle by the caliper puts more bending load into its stanchion. If there is a lot of clearance between the stanchion and slider and the slider axle nuts are not tight the wheel will deflect slightly. A drum brake would do the same.

Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: ogrilp400] #735301
05/14/18 9:12 pm
05/14/18 9:12 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,384
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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New Jersey USA
DM--Dave--I think the UK style number plate on that front fender is mounted back to front?

Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: ogrilp400] #735306
05/14/18 9:55 pm
05/14/18 9:55 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,756
ca, us
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DMadigan Offline
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From the pictures in Bacon's book the ones with the embossed numbers have the angled edge facing forward and so are the dolphin nose (how else to describe it?) which appear to have a beaded edge. The plain flat plate are mounted both ways. I made the (presumably bad) assumption that the angle was to clear the headlamp. I made this one as they are non-existant over here. That is a '71 with the bread bin tank and raygun silencers.

Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: ogrilp400] #735329
05/15/18 12:37 am
05/15/18 12:37 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,384
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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New Jersey USA
The idea (I think!) is that with the plate the other way around the leading edge (the angled edge) is then either vertical or, more normally, leaning back towards the engine.
This then gives the impression of being swept back by the forward motion of the bike---that is-- it looks quicker!
Whether this is the concept or not, certainly growing up in England and into bikes when these front plates were compulsory they invariably had the angled edge at the front.
Of course that is a few years ago now and memory can play tricks when you get to the age of 27 (I started reversing my age a couple of years ago!).
HTH

Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: DMadigan] #735391
05/15/18 2:11 pm
05/15/18 2:11 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,076
Scotland
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Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Scotland
Hi Dave,

Originally Posted by DMadigan
" What "maintenance" is required on - at most - a one-year-old fender?" - These bikes vibrate which can cause cracks,
Do you ever inspect your bike before riding?

The cracks are more widely-known now, and we're mostly forty-odd years more sensible. Who knows who it was in the early 1970's; maybe a teen or twenty-something with his first Triumph? John Healy related the reason, an educated guess says he would have more reason to know because, even if Triumph or BSA didn't shout about it, they probably had a quiet word with all the dealers to inspect bikes for the problem? In any event, as I say, Triumph changed the 'guard/fender and mounting '73-on.

Originally Posted by DMadigan
"Plus the disc on only one leg twists the forks if you grab a real handful" - Have you tried replacing the caliper with a bar then try to twist the slider? The mount will bend before the slider twists measurably.

You are talking about the wrong thing. Put the bar between the two sliders and apply some pressure. You really can't make the bottoms of the sliders move out of line with each other? You know they do because one of the things you've made is bushed sliders to fit Triumph disc-brake forks.

Next time I have a single-disc T160 for long enough to make up a camera mount, I'll film the problem and put it on YouTube.

Regards,

Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: ogrilp400] #735401
05/15/18 2:54 pm
05/15/18 2:54 pm
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,728
Norfolk, UK
L.A.B. Offline
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L.A.B.  Offline
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Norfolk, UK
[Linked Image]

Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: ogrilp400] #735406
05/15/18 3:56 pm
05/15/18 3:56 pm
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Posts: 3,756
ca, us
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DMadigan Offline
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Stuart, do you mean putting a bar on the front of one slider and behind the other at the axle? How will the brake put that pair of forces into the sliders? Sure if you put the steering against the stop without the wheel mounted and push on just one slider the slider will deflect out of line with the other but when the brake is applied the tyre is putting (assuming the tyre is centered between the stanchions) equal force into both, not pushing one back and the other forward. The only difference in load is the stanchion taking out the torque around the axle of the slider and some of that torque is resisted by the clamping force of the slider on the axle.
Clearance between the slider and stanchion has a big effect in the deflection especially with the forks extended since there is not much overlap between the two. Since there are no bushes in the disc brake sliders the majority of the load is taken at the top of the slider and it wears quicker than bushed sliders. Take out the axle and spring then push/pull on the slider at full extension. You will see a fair amount of movement at the axle.

Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: DMadigan] #735418
05/15/18 4:56 pm
05/15/18 4:56 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,076
Scotland
S
Stuart Online content
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Stuart  Online Content
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 10,076
Scotland
Hi Dave,

Originally Posted by DMadigan
bar on the front of one slider and behind the other at the axle? How will the brake put that pair of forces into the sliders?

The single caliper and disc is on one side of the wheel.

Originally Posted by DMadigan
when the brake is applied the tyre is putting (assuming the tyre is centered between the stanchions) equal force into both, not pushing one back and the other forward.

Not what I saw. Even with twin discs, I see the wheel move back towards the engine.

I'm not suggesting that the single caliper/disc moves the non-disc slider forward, just that the disc slider moves backwards relative to the non-disc slider.

Nor do I know if the tyre subsequently brings the sliders parallel again (because I couldn't hang off the bike long enough to watch). What I do know is: grabbing the front brake lever hard causes the 'bars to twitch noticeably to the left; hanging off the bike when grabbing the front brake lever hard, the cause of the "twitch" was the wheel and tyre swinging to the left as the left-hand slider moved backwards, bottom most noticeably,

Hth.

Regards,

Re: 72-73- .. Wire Mount Front Guards [Re: ogrilp400] #735495
05/16/18 2:43 am
05/16/18 2:43 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,384
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Online content

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Tridentman  Online Content

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New Jersey USA
Dave---I had to empty out one of my garages today in order to swop over the bike on the lift for another bike.
While 6 of them were outside I took a few photos.
You will see the front number plate on the Trident.
This bike was prepared in the Development Shop in Meriden as a press test bike and I bought it direct from the development shop in early 1973.
I brought it with me when I moved to US.
So the number plate is as fitted by the Meriden development shop.
You will also see the front number plate on my 1960 BSA A7 Shooting Star.
I bought that bike in UK while living in US so it too is genuine UK fitment.
HTH

Attached Files Garage View--15th May 2018.jpgTridents--15th May 2018.jpg1972 Trident--15th May 2018.jpg1972 Trident Front Number Plate--15th May 2018.jpg1960 A7SS Front Number Plate--15th May 2018.jpg


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