BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
Jwood & co JRC Engineering dealers Jwood & co
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Member Spotlight
Dr_Hiller
Dr_Hiller
Seattle, WA USA
Posts: 243
Joined: October 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
29 registered members (998John), 177 guests, and 476 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
RickRider88, PreunitPeter, Tcycles, Metalguru, hanscarlsson
10222 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Stuart 115
Lannis 96
NickL 73
L.A.B. 61
Popular Topics(Views)
584,442 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics66,876
Posts648,762
Members10,222
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: kommando] #734340
05/07/18 12:40 am
05/07/18 12:40 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
R
Rohan Online content
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
Originally Posted by koan58

Were old stanchions really plain steel?


All stanchions prior to the Commando lived inside tin covers, so no need to be anything other than plain steel.
They lived inside tin covers, and were greased up to prevent rust - in theory.

It was the Commando with exposed fork tubes that needed the hard chromed tubes.
The hard chroming on a set of forks on a commando I had had worn away, but the forks still seemed to work ok,
so it was entirely cosmetic.

Originally Posted by kommando
The rust comes from the steel rod as it sits above the oil and then the rust is removed as the rod moves up and down inside the damper cap,


All long Roadholders prior to the Nomad didn't have damper rods or dampers, so this damper rods rusting etc only applies to later stuff.

All very interesting. Maybe...
So, when did they switch over to a steel lower bush.
The bronze one in my pic above demonstrates that they were bronze at some point...

And the sintered bronze (upper bush) absorbs oil and remains lubricated, no matter what.
I'd agree that forks seem to attract water inside, tin covers and oil seals regardless.

Last edited by Rohan; 05/07/18 10:13 pm. Reason: Seperate mention of lower bush and sintered bronze, for tt
Support Your #1 BritBike Forum!

Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Check out British motorcycles for sale:
British Motorcycles on e-Bay UK, British motorcycles on e-Bay North America
Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #734433
05/07/18 10:10 pm
05/07/18 10:10 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
R
Rohan Online content
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
I didn't for a minute mean that, I was thinking of the upper bush - which is up out of the oil.
Maybe those sentences needed separating - now done.

The upper bush though is the one that takes the big side loading,
and wears oval with long use - so I'm now curious why you would say that ?
After all, sintered bronze bushes run in oil in some gearboxes ?

Last edited by Rohan; 05/07/18 10:15 pm.
Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #735452
05/15/18 9:21 pm
05/15/18 9:21 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
R
Rohan Online content
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
BTW, just for the record, this is the reason that all Roadholders initially used an all bronze bush setup. These early Roadholder sliders are STEEL, so they would have needed non-steel bushes.

[Linked Image]

These are heavy, so its obvious why Nortons then went to alloy sliders.

But I'm still curious when that steel lower bush began being used, and why....

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #735562
05/16/18 6:47 pm
05/16/18 6:47 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 576
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
BritBike Forum member
koan58  Offline
BritBike Forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 576
Isle of Wight, UK
That's very interesting. Can you give any more info on their origin/history?

I've never heard mention of such things.

The brackets seem to be home welded, a bit crooked.

Are they chromed?

Most curious!

I would indeed expect a lower bush made from some softer material like bronze in such an application.

As already mentioned, the use of alloy sliders would have made the use of a harder material engineeringly sensible, hence steel.

I have a hard time thinking that those steel sliders aren't some one-off survivor?

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #735584
05/16/18 9:49 pm
05/16/18 9:49 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
R
Rohan Online content
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
All the early Long Roadholder specimens I've seen have these welded steel sliders.
You can easily spot them in pics, with the little screw on top caps.
As oem, they mostly would have been black, with the top bit chromed only.
They are in the brochure like that. Thats how you tell a genuine bike.

I'd suspect some PO has 'updated' these, and chromed them to more look like later ones.
Its not impossible they may have been a Special Order though, Nortons have been doing that for generations...

[Linked Image]

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #735621
05/17/18 5:59 am
05/17/18 5:59 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
R
Rohan Online content
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
Its also perhaps worth noting that the prewar telescopic Roadholder forks were different,
and the tele forks shown on the revamped 1940 bike models ( that never made it into production) were different again.

But we diverge, muchly....

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #735691
05/17/18 6:23 pm
05/17/18 6:23 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 576
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
BritBike Forum member
koan58  Offline
BritBike Forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 576
Isle of Wight, UK
Do you have a pre-war reference using the term "Roadholder forks"?

Try as I might, the earliest such reference I can find is from 1947:

" A further improvement to Norton’s already legendary handling brought with it yet another name, the “Roadholder” telescopic front forks, introduced in 1947."

from http://www.classic-british-motorcycles.com/norton-motorcycles.html

Studying many pictures of slightly pre and post war Nortons, and the info I can find, suggests that Norton started introducing a telescopic fork in about 1937/8.
As far as I can find, it wasn't called "Roadholder" at this time.

The only telescopic fork models with painted sliders (presumably steel) that I have found are just pre-war.

Anyone know when the "Roadholder" name was coined?

Rohan, tha pair of steel sliders may be rocking-horse pooh, I mean a precious item!

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: koan58] #735705
05/17/18 10:19 pm
05/17/18 10:19 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
R
Rohan Online content
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
Originally Posted by koan58

Try as I might, the earliest such reference I can find is from 1947:


Note from teacher - "must try harder".

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/w1600/pict/380440113419_/1938-Norton-Model-Sales-Manual-The.jpg
And there are earlier editions.

Note that Nortons called their girder forks Roadholders, before the telescopic versions came along.
I don't think they were patented as such though (they were Webb fork copies).
Originally Posted by koan58


Rohan, tha pair of steel sliders may be rocking-horse pooh, I mean a precious item!


Naaa, every 1947 model came with them.
I'm not entirely sure when the alloy versions came along though.

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #735772
05/18/18 3:31 pm
05/18/18 3:31 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 576
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
BritBike Forum member
koan58  Offline
BritBike Forum member
K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 576
Isle of Wight, UK
I don't think that sales brochure has any relevance to Roadholder forks as such.

Norton had long used the term "The Road-Holder" in the same way as "The Unapproachable Norton" as advertising bluster.

In 1938 few, if any, Nortons were equipped with telescopic forks. That brochure is alluding to the general Norton mystique, not specific forks.

In a similar vein, the owners' club magazine is called "The Roadholder", referring to the marque through history, not just those models fitted with Roadholder forks.

Teacher, again I say that I can't find a convincing reference to a pre-war association of the words "Roadholder" with "forks".

From https://www.nortonownersclub.org/noc-chat/technical2-heavy-twins-forum/278987939

"Although the telescopic fork had already been invented and Norton were using one from around (1943?), a new hydraulic damping system for the forks was designed by JACKIE MOORE, an engineer who had taken over the prototype work from Edgar Franks.

Jackie Moore also worked on the night shifts during the war, which also incorporated fire watching duties. On quiet nights he had plenty of time to work without interruption.

A number of patents were taken out on this fork in 1944.

In 1943 advertisements carried the slogan: “Holds the road, the records and the reputation”
After the war Norton carried the slogan: The World’s best Roadholder”

I can’t find the name of any one person who decided to name the forks; “Roadholders”, but as the “road holding” theme was being used extensively in their advertising; it seems to have been a simple name adaption to give credit to their new patented front fork for this quality. I guess it would have been someone in the advertising department around the board table. You can visualise the nodding heads of approval."


and from https://www.nortonownersclub.org/models/sngle-cylinder/overhead-camshaft

"The plunger rear end frame was an optional extra for 1938, having been previously used only on the works racers from 1936. The handling qualities of the plunger and girder Norton were reckoned to be good for the type. The 1938 works bikes went over from the long stroke engine to a short stroke one with a bigger bore; typically, the works bikes design was kept a couple of years ahead of the production models.

Post-war production of the International started again in 1947, but fitted with an iron head and barrel as on the pre-war CS1 and CJ machines. Although the frame was the regular 'garden gate', with plunger rear springing, the front end was adorned with Roadholder telescopic forks instead of girders. The late '40s was perhaps the last great era of clubmans' racing and many Inters were stripped of silencers and lights for racing use."

I accept that my evidence is largely "reading between the lines", but it strongly suggests that Roadholders are a late or post-war development. The very earliest may have been steel sliders, but whether they were the patented Roadholders and called such, I don't know. I doubt early teles with steel sliders and I suspect minimal damping at best, would have been worth shouting about. I suspect they went to alloy sliders after a very short time.

Do those steel sliders or yours have the usual machining for a damper tube/rod, oil seal?

I have tried investigating the patent (British Patent No 557982) fruitlessly.

I think what is needed is a contributor with some period literature or experience.

Thanks Rohan for your knowledge.

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: koan58] #735797
05/18/18 9:58 pm
05/18/18 9:58 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
R
Rohan Online content
BritBike Forum member
Rohan  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
R
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,089
Oztralia
Originally Posted by koan58

I have tried investigating the patent (British Patent No 557982) fruitlessly.
I think what is needed is a contributor with some period literature or experience.
.


I have all that junk, I'll have a dig around.

The (racing) prewar teles had no damping whatsoever, they were just pogo sticks.
I don't know what happened in the forks announced for 1940, I don't think any have survived ?
And I've never seen them discussed or featured anywhere.
Tele forks appeared in various wartime Norton publicity/propaganda pics, no details whatsoever though. So they were obviously working on them ...

From the 1930s
"FORKS. Fitted with rebound springs NORTON Patent 387550 as developed and used in road racing and incorporating hand adjustable shock absorber and steering damper. Built of first grade high tensile steel tube this fork is largely responsible for the famous road-holding qualities for which Norton machines are renowned."

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Dave Comeau 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1