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Wet sumping
#733019 04/25/18 11:31 am
Joined: Nov 2017
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clipper Offline OP
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1960 R.E. 350cc Clipper

I have read somewhere, but cannot for the life of me remember where, on how to find out if oil is leaking into the sump from either the bronze timing bearing or through the a faulty oil tank seal. I realise that to fix either of these the engine needs to be split to carry out a repair.

Any hints on eliminating the two possibilities would be appreciated.
Thank you
Stuart

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Re: Wet sumping
clipper #733088 04/25/18 10:10 pm
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Another possibility is leakage through the oil pump.
The bronze "discs" faces should be cleaned up on a flat plate with abrasive paper and lapped to the timing cover.
Try this first as you don't need to strip the engine, just remove the timing cover. Make sure that you thoroughly clean it after to remove all traces of lapping paste.

Re: Wet sumping
trevinoz #733094 04/25/18 10:25 pm
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What are the symptoms you are trying to cure Stuart?


What's this thread?
Re: Wet sumping
ChrisX #733473 04/29/18 12:10 pm
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Thanks trevinooz and ChrisX. for your replies
Sorry about the the length of time repling, I have been away from my computer for a few days.
The problem is a smoking engine and over oiling. The symptions are, on draining the sump for several hours or until oil is no longer dripping I started the bike and no smoke from the exhaust, then after about 2 to 3 minutes it started to smoke and when snapping the throttle smoke increased during the action. The head has had new guides,valves and rockers and bearings. While the engine was running the rocker covers were removed, there was lots of oil being fed to the rockers and returning to the sump. I am having a rebore to .040” though the barrel and piston had no signs of wear just a few horizontal barrel marks (could be felt with the finger nail) however, the second ring gap was .029 and the 3rd ring .028” the 1st ring being a ‘chrome’ was .018” not too sure on the quality of the Piston or rings being fitted by the previous owner hence the rebore, the barrel inside diameter was checked at various positions for variations – no problems. I have on order a known good piston asm from Hitchcocks 2 new oil pumps, spindle and gear,
I have read from forums that the other possibillities for having excess oil in the sump are leaks from the ‘Timing’ bronze bearing or oil leaking from the tank through to the sump. There was one other possibility for over oiling in the combustion chamber (which I have) that was caused by a slightly bent conrod causing oil to pass the rings. The ring gaps were spaced when the barrel was removed.
What I have done at the moment, while waiting for the rebore and parts to arrive, is drain the oil tank, block off the feed and return pumps and ½ fill the the timing chest, I will leave for 4 to 5 days and measure how much oil is leaked through the timing bearing into the sump, second, I will drain the timing case, drain the sump fill the oil tank half way between the dip stick marks and check for the amount of oil in the sump.
Can you see any problems by using this method to check where the excess oil is coming from. The one thing I did not do was to measure the amount of oil in the sump after running the engine before dismantling.
Thanks Stuart

Re: Wet sumping
clipper #733524 04/29/18 10:00 pm
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Stuart,
Have you stopped the engine when it starts to smoke and removed the sump drain?
If it is sumping pretty soon after starting it would seem that the scavenge pump is not keeping up with the feed.
Silly question, are the pumps in the right chambers?
If you think that there is excessive oil reaching the rockers, have a look at the check ball and spring which regulates the feed.
Even with new pumps, you are still going to have to lap them to the timing cover.
I think that your ideas for checking for the source are OK but there is not much point in blocking the scavenge pump.
Good luck.

Re: Wet sumping
trevinoz #733549 04/30/18 4:34 am
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As Trev says about draining the sump once the engine starts to smoke. Seems to be the key diagnostic. No good tilting at windmills until you know exactly where the issue lies.

The rebore certainly looks like the right thing to do if you can feel ridges and the rings are knackered. Fingers crossed that will be the cure.


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Re: Wet sumping
clipper #733688 05/01/18 8:23 am
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Trev & Chris,
Thanks for your suggestions. No I did not drain the sump when it started to smoke, i will do that when I have fitted the parts, should it still be smoking, do you know how much oil should drain from the sump when the engine has been stopped after running? The oil pumps were correct, feed in the rear position, I did check the 'check ball & spring with my compressor, clicked in around 35 - 45 PSI. I have made up a tool to lap in the pumps once they arrive, the plunger on the feed pump did not have near as much suction as did the scavenger pump, hence I ordered two new pumps. It has been 3 day since I blocked off the feed pump and filled the Timing case, so will see tonight how much oil has accumulated, will keep you posted. I hope to do the oil tank test before I go away as the parts are not expected for a while.
I am going to the US on Monday so will update you once I return after the 8th June and the parts and re-bore have been fitted and carried out.
Thanks again Stuart.

Re: Wet sumping
clipper #733797 05/02/18 10:47 am
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I drained the the sump last night and 45ml of oil dripped out overnight. The oil that drained out was dark in colour whereas when emptying the timing case, which I had previously filled with clear oil, the oil was light and clear! so I am now wondering if the oil tank was not completely empty though, the dip stick was dry. When I drained the oil tank a considerable amount of oil drained out, so it was not empty. Anyway, I have left the timing case off and pluged the feed hole in the casting and re filled the tank between the Full and Low marks. I will check it in three days and see how much oil has accumulated.


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