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Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #732532
04/20/18 8:18 pm
04/20/18 8:18 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,945
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline
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Posts: 5,945
Maui Hawaii
Maybe, but should I run a set of these Premiers that have been giving trouble?

Yesterday I could hear my neighbor running his T100C which I put a Premier on last year. Man that thing is cold blooded. I had the thought that I might get a bigger pilot jet for him and ease his pain.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
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Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: HawaiianTiger] #732536
04/20/18 10:19 pm
04/20/18 10:19 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,106
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline
fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,106
ohio, usa
Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
Agreed,

I should probably put together a bike from bits and pieces
with 750 kit, Megacycle cams, etc and go out and raise some hell.

Unfortunately, money and space are the limiting factors.

Cheers,
Bill



you know, i have all the pieces for a go-fast track bike now-- a 66 TR6 front frame, 65 rear frame, some mikunis, 1969 forks and brakes, a stock head with beehives and OS valves, an old rear wheel from something, either a joe hunt or a pazon ignition.

i thought about putting in a cam, but it's been so long since i rode a triumph with a stock cam i can't remember what they were like. so i'm just going to put it together as-is and see what it does based on a weight of around 350 pounds. no hot rod stuff, just stock and light weight.


i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #732579
04/21/18 10:07 am
04/21/18 10:07 am
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,646
UK Berks
A
AngloBike Online content
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AngloBike  Online Content
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A
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,646
UK Berks
Thinking as I type......
You don't really need a dyno , just a rolling road to allow you to go nowhere at full revs?
In the uk mot stations have rolling roads to do brake checks
Normally the tester drives the static non running bike on the rollers and drives the rear wheel to say 30mph, declutches the rollers and applies the brakes to slow the rollers. Could a declutched roller be used to replace a proper rolling road?

Any mot testers on here who know how the systems work?

I suppose that as some USA members seem to have large acreage you may be able to knock up a system including tie downs and be able to run the bike to run at wot and go nowhere? Ironically where there are plenty of straight roads and few restrictions on running a bike with possibly no tax/mot/insurance

Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #732612
04/21/18 4:13 pm
04/21/18 4:13 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 639
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
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koan58  Offline
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K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 639
Isle of Wight, UK
Have you or a friend invested in one? You seem obsessed with the idea.
While with high performance machines there may be a case for it, most of us don't need it.
Do you always run your bike at maximum, are you racing or sprinting maybe?
Why does your bike need such precise tuning, do you have fuel injection?
Most folk want a nice running engine, not every little fraction of HP. This is easily done without technology and expense, as it has always been done with these old bikes.
I think your insistence on this maybe demonstrates your lack of confidence in being able to do it conventionally?

Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #732642
04/21/18 9:42 pm
04/21/18 9:42 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 639
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
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koan58  Offline
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K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 639
Isle of Wight, UK
"Conventionally" I would suggest is how this has been done by most people over most years with most machines.
What is so different between a 1979 T140 and a 1937 5T?
It would be wonderful if we all had easy access to a dyno/rolling road (never in my life of 40+ years of biking)
So you may achieve an "ideal" AF ratio, so what? A wonderful confirmation of theory, yet the engines runs like a bag of [censored], and with a richer mixture runs beautifully. I'll be happy to leave you struggling with your ideals, while I have lunch at the pub.
As Joey has shown as little interest in the employment of a rolling road as anyone else, for this problem, do you have a rolling road that rolls along the road toward Joey's gaff?
These old fella's don't need much in the way of sophistication, but much in the way of feel and understanding.

Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #732646
04/21/18 10:06 pm
04/21/18 10:06 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,945
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline
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Posts: 5,945
Maui Hawaii
The dyno I used was conveniently located with a few miles of the biggest race track in the area. I think there's good reason for that.

When you build a bike with all manner of hop up goodies with no available data base for how it is to be tuned, the dyno can save you many hours of tuning experimentation.

With a stock bike near sea level, using the factory recommended settings gets you very close from the start. At that point just a little time spent monkeying with needle positions etc will get you there.

Also, don't toss out that choke slide and cable just yet. If your bike's carb isn't quite what it should be, this is possibly the easiest way to determine which way to go with your tuning.

Install it and use it as a tool.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #732655
04/21/18 11:06 pm
04/21/18 11:06 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 639
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
BritBike Forum member
koan58  Offline
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K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 639
Isle of Wight, UK
Charles - the dyno isn't drawing me as an irresistable magnet, reasons being:

I'm more interested in steady, smoothish reliable riding, than ultimate HP and performance.

Having become familiar with it over >35 years, it is rather like knowing if the wife is happy.

The "conventional* approach to carb tuning is well documented, why would I waste our time repeating it? It has worked extremely well for many decades with ordinary systems. If you have EFI and/or super/turbo charging, then you probably need specialist dyno data. That is a different scenario.

Perhaps as you say "I've got my forums mixed up" because I think these machines need feel and understanding, rather than some robotic read-out of numbers.

Where have you been on your trusted spreadsheet?

Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #732658
04/21/18 11:34 pm
04/21/18 11:34 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,106
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline
fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,106
ohio, usa
i use every tool i can. vacuum gauge, colortune, AF oxygen sensor, stopwatch, plug reading, and every scrap of riding feel i can get. the race bike gets the dyno for baselines, but i depart from those settings as things change. i tune from my notes. every bike has a book with its tuning history and measurements- temp, RAD, jets, timing, speed, all of it.

i get satisfaction out of a machine that runs sharper than the factory settings allow. i retune my street bike for warm and cool weather, if i change elevation, if i change pipes, carbs, or ignition. i change the race bike tune based on RAD.

they start easily, run well, and some of them go pretty fast. some of my best settings are radically different from stock, because the machine is radically different.

it all depends on what youre looking for. thrres no one answer.

Last edited by kevin roberts; 04/21/18 11:40 pm.

i have no idea what i'm doing.
Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #732691
04/22/18 11:19 am
04/22/18 11:19 am
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 829
Skudeneshavn Norway
S
Stein Roger Offline

BritBike Forum member
Stein Roger  Offline

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S
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 829
Skudeneshavn Norway
Joey the OP wisely pulled his nose out of this fruitless discussion on page 1. Sensible chap.

Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #732732
04/22/18 7:34 pm
04/22/18 7:34 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,275
Gothenburg, Sweden
Morgan aka Admin Offline

Ride safe today!
Morgan aka Admin  Offline

Ride safe today!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,275
Gothenburg, Sweden
Folks, I have deleted a few posts in this thread, those were posted by NickL and Charles DB,

Here is my comment..
first if you don't have something positive to say about another member then don't post! Personal abuse is NEVER ok.
Second ask you self am I hi-jacking the topic? if yes then Don't post.
Simple as that!

Read the first post again.
It will make it easier for me and our moderators and of course everyone who reads what you are typing.

Your admin since 1996.. just sayin my 2c


BSAing you
Morgan Johansson
BritBike.com.
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Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: NickL] #732765
04/23/18 12:27 am
04/23/18 12:27 am
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,584
OZ
Triless Offline
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Triless  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,584
OZ
I'm sure I speak for many when I say your advice and knowledge is much appreciated, Nick ! Maybe just a bit one eyed about those "other" twin things, though !

Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: NickL] #732794
04/23/18 7:07 am
04/23/18 7:07 am
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,275
Gothenburg, Sweden
Morgan aka Admin Offline

Ride safe today!
Morgan aka Admin  Offline

Ride safe today!
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 2,275
Gothenburg, Sweden
Originally Posted by NickL
My apologies Chaps, offence only aimed at one person.

Nick


Thats the thing - one person is to many.
Follow my advice above it’s the only way.
This goes for all members.
Ride safe.


BSAing you
Morgan Johansson
BritBike.com.
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Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #732881
04/23/18 11:58 pm
04/23/18 11:58 pm
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 440
Pleasant Hill, California USA
T
TR7RVMan Offline
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T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 440
Pleasant Hill, California USA
Hi Joey, Sorry to jump in so late. I have '73 Tiger 750 which as very similar carb. I've worked on some new Premier also.

I've been learning about tuning with this carb over the last few years. I've spent some money on jets & slide. The more I learn, the more I don't know. These can be puzzling sometimes.

The new Premier on friend's bike had to have both float levels set. Plus on both the float pivot sat too high & fouled bowl gasket. The groove in casting for pivot pin wasn't quite deep enough on one end. Decided to file pivot thinner on that end.

The floats were not set to .070". One high, one low. Set to .070 with bowl upside down holding pivot in place. I find this tends to work ok. A little more consistent that pushing down on float tang to seat needle. I carefully bend float tang to adjust, being mindful to not distort pivot area.

Had a lot of problems with the idle passage intermittently clogging. Cleaned several times. Finally was able to see a metal chip fly out the air passage at intake horn. This cured all problems. Have been trouble free for several thousand miles since.

Regarding needles. They need to be measured as they can vary by .0005 diameter on straight part. Yes that is enough to effect mixture.

Regarding needle jet going from .106 to .107 needle jet will give a decided difference in mixture. I found bad ping with .106 & much reduced with .107 jet. Same needle used & the same test route I found for testing mixture.

Going from 3.5 to 3 slide is also a decided difference. With California fuel most Tigers 650 or 750 will tend to run better with #3 from what I observed.

However.... Would a #3 slide be better with a .106 needle jet?? I don't know that. My bike wants to ping so much I decided to not try that. It runs quite good now.

Main jet is easiest to test in my experience. Go on open road 65mph up hill if possible. Roll on throttle to full. If too rich will 8 stroke. An ah ah ah ah ah type misfire. Backing off throttle will cure the misfire. If lean bike will feel like it wants to hold back & not accelerate. Backing throttle slightly will give a sensation of it wants to run better. I bought several main jets. Went way rich 300 jet, then smaller until no more 8 stroking. Ended up with 190.

I keep needle full rich clip in bottom groove. Wants to ping worse if leaner needle setting near 3/4 throttle.

Needle jet I found by experiment the .107 ran better & pinged less. So I left it.

The slide was most difficult to determine for me. It's hard to change on my bike with frame in way. John Healy did tuning AMAL guide. He talks of snap throttle at stand still. Misfire & dying too lean. I didn't have that & it ran fine. To rich will 8 stroke snapping open. I didn't have that.

I did have sensation that motor was holding back & wanted to ping worse at 1/8-1/4 throttle. Got #3 slide for test. Most interesting as it passed the snap throttle test with 3.5 with #3 the motor just came alive. Doesn't do the holding back anymore. Really wants to run freely on freeway at 65 mph. Put 500 miles like this so far. Fuel mileage hasn't really changed for the worse if at all.

You must 100% of the time mark grip during tuning to know what part of carb is in effect at the moment. Even at 65 mph my carb is not even near the needle taper. The mixture is needle straight, needle jet & slide. With maybe a little idle air screw effect, but when I move it for a test I don't really feel difference once under way.

In any case I always start with main jet. Then work down. Until main jet is in effect it doesn't change anything, but if too small I find it hard to feel what carb is doing at 2/3 & higher throttle.

I just had to substitute parts with an educated guess & see how it effected running.

Plug readings didn't seem to change with slide or needle jet, but the actual performance could be felt easily.

Take this for just my experience. But for sure mark the grip. Print tuning guide & take it on road tests. Find a route that includes all conditions so you can repeat the road test & better feel the changes.

My bike is all stock, points, air filters, mufflers.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: ] #732912
04/24/18 11:13 am
04/24/18 11:13 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,506
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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triton thrasher  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,506
scotland
Originally Posted by Charles DB

The straight part of the needle has no effect on air fuel mixture as it is only the tapered section which enters the needle jet.


On an AMAL?

No, I think you’ve got that wrong.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #732929
04/24/18 2:17 pm
04/24/18 2:17 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,175
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

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J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,175
Boston, Massachusetts
The needle, which is .0985" on a Concentric, forms an important orifice with the needle jet at low throttle openings. It is at these throttle openings changing the size of the needle jet has the most influence. One thousandths either side of the proper size is a pretty big change in flow. As the needle taper takes over, as a percentage of change in flow, the diameter of the needle jet has less and less influence on the fuel/air mixture as the needle is raised. Also at these low throttle openings the cross drilled hole has its most influence. Very small changes in the diameter of this .035" hole make big differences at low throttle openings. The larger the hole the leaner the mixture at this point. A couple of thousandths makes a big difference.

www.vintagebikemagazine.com/technical-articles/AMAL/

Scroll down near the bottom.


Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: ] #732933
04/24/18 2:35 pm
04/24/18 2:35 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,506
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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scotland
Originally Posted by Charles DB
Scroll down to the cut-away pics opening sequence. http://www.jba.bc.ca/Bushmans%20Carb%20Tuning.html. Slide in closed position needle taper closes off needle jet and pilot circuit takes over.


The parallel section of the needle is smaller than the needle jet. It can’t close it off.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #732941
04/24/18 3:48 pm
04/24/18 3:48 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 639
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
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koan58  Offline
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K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 639
Isle of Wight, UK
The needle taper is a little less than 1/3 of the total needle length.

I think the confusion stems from Bushman's misleading statement "Slide in closed position needle taper closes off needle jet and pilot circuit takes over."

and then assuming that that the parallel part of the needle has only just reached the needle jet orifice at closed throttle, and that the first event causes the second. In truth, at this position, the entire length of the needle jet is occupied by the parallel part of the needle, which only exits the orifice at about 1/3 throttle, bringing the taper fully into play.

As John described, until that point, the small annular gap between needle shaft and orifice forms the effective jet size that the throttle valve venturi effect is drawing upon. Of course there is more subtlety to that progression as the length of restriction diminishes, as the end of the parallel rises in the orifice.

That the pilot circuit takes over at closed/nearly closed throttle has nothing to do with the restriction of the needle jet, but because of the loss of venturi effect with reduced airflow under the slide, and greatly increasing manifold vacuum on the engine side of the slide.

Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: ] #733309
04/27/18 9:50 pm
04/27/18 9:50 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,886
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,886
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Originally Posted by Charles DB
I am genuinely interested as to why the other contributors on this post whom apparently have had or still have problems with their bikes carburation seem reluctant to put the bike on a rolling road.



Ive not gotten past the first page and already fed up of hearing about rolling roads. I have NEVER used a rolling road to tune a bike, and yet i manage to tune them just fine. Biggest aid is a choke, and marking off of the throttle position and choke position in the bore. If you can add choke to a position and it doesn't get worse then your running too lean. Your bike could also run like the clappers and still be too lean (mine is usually more buzzy when it isn't running to the right jetting, increase the mixture and it has run happier) My setup is far from stock so it requires complete 101 on carb tuning... as I say no rolling road. Bikes were also tuned for performance back in the day, gasoline was cheap and emissions were barely a consideration... least in the UK, top speed and BHP values were the biggest consideration. Also, I have found the jetting on a stock bike with aftermarket silencers to be fine... the biggest problem with most aftermarket pipes is the outlet size is too large! this will reduce back pressure making for poor ridabilty and always changing down gear because it has no midrange, leaving you to be forever up and down the box! Sleeve the outlet pipe to at least the size of the pipe going into it and the noise will be tamed and the bike will be more pleasurable to ride.

Anyway, apologies for the rant but something worth while to be taken from it....

My first question (and apologies if this has been asked) But... Why did you change the carb in the first place?

2) did you check for any swarf in the carb?

3) is your carb fitted with the correct components? 2 stroke or 4 stroke: jet holder, needle jet, needle.


beerchug
Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #733330
04/28/18 12:30 am
04/28/18 12:30 am
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,800
Bishop, Calif.
D
desco Offline
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D
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,800
Bishop, Calif.
Two thoughts;
High tech is usually not required on these old turds unless you've got gobs of money to spend on things you could probably figure out with a bit of tinkering and time.
The new AMAL carbs are generaly loved by most, hated by a few. Is that not the history of Triumphs?


1968 T120R
1972 T120RV
Any advice given is without a warranty expressed or implied.
Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Joey Y] #733338
04/28/18 1:21 am
04/28/18 1:21 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,663
Jordan, NY
Al Eckstadt Online content

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Al Eckstadt  Online Content

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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,663
Jordan, NY
I am installing my AMAL Premiers on the Interceptor. Prior to mounting I disassembled them over white paper towels. Sure enough there were a few pieces of metal (swarf). But in addition to that,e the float bowl gaskets had loose pieces where they were cut from the gasket sheet, some of these on the inside edge of the gasket. These could fall off into the float bowl and bugger something for sure. Make sure your gaskets have clean edges.


Al Eckstadt
Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: Al Eckstadt] #733353
04/28/18 8:01 am
04/28/18 8:01 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,506
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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triton thrasher  Online Content
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scotland
I've also found that AMAL aren't very good at gaskets.

Carburettors supplied in kit form would suit me better, if the people in the factory can't be bothered cleaning or assembling them properly.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Amal Premier Carb WTF [Re: ] #733468
04/29/18 11:53 am
04/29/18 11:53 am
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,886
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Allan Gill  Offline

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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 4,886
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Originally Posted by Charles DB
Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Originally Posted by Charles DB
I am genuinely interested as to why the other contributors on this post whom apparently have had or still have problems with their bikes carburation seem reluctant to put the bike on a rolling road.

Ive not gotten past the first page and already fed up of hearing about rolling roads...... I have NEVER used a rolling road to tune a bike, and yet i manage to tune them just fine....... My setup is far from stock so it requires complete 101 on carb tuning... as I say no rolling road.


For someone fed up hearing about rolling roads you do make several references to them. I was interested hearing from members who do not use a rolling road but who have or had problems setting up the carburation. No responses as yet - but thanks for replying.





3 mentions but no "refrences", im not reffering anyone to a rolling road at all, infact having only said "rolling road" the once it would have made for a sentence which would have been hard to read. However two other experienced members on here had also made comment about them... probably passed you by. Anyway... the point of the comment wasn't to pick about you or anyone else so we can leave that part there.

However, a lot of people (self included) do prefer to set the bike up the old fashioned way, also by that they can gain a good understanding of their bike/carburettors... (AMAL carb tuning manual listed on the British Motorcycles In General forum). The notes I made about backpressure and the poorer performance by not having it (because of modern pipes) was not only refrencing your comments to aftermarket silencers but those trying to tune out a problem... that can't be tuned out.


beerchug
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