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Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? #732656
04/21/18 11:22 pm
04/21/18 11:22 pm
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Pasadena, California, USA
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Eric Eccleston Offline OP
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Would there be any advantage (or problems caused by) using the extended upper bushes (2.9") from RGM on a pair of pre-featherbed "long" roadholders? Thanks in advance for any insight.


'69 Velocette Venom Clubman
'57 Norton 19S
'56 BMW R69
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Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: ] #732680
04/22/18 8:25 am
04/22/18 8:25 am
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Norfolk, UK
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Originally Posted by Charles DB
If you push down on the handlebars and then pull hard up (with both wheels on the ground) you will probably be able to hear and feel a solid clunk as the forks 'top-out'. With the longer bushes you do not get the clunk.

P.S (I could be wrong - I'm no expert on Roadholders!)



"Long" (pre-Featherbed) Roadholders use a different damping arrangement to other Roadholders. As there are no damper rods/pistons/end caps to "clunk" it's debatable whether long bushes would work.


https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-drawing/408/front-forks


Long Roadholder damper.
https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details/18434

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: ] #732722
04/22/18 6:20 pm
04/22/18 6:20 pm
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Originally Posted by Charles DB
The parts drawing posted by LAB shows two different sets of fork internals.


The LH set is the pre-Featherbed Long Roadholder.

(RH is Short Roadholder.)


Last edited by L.A.B.; 04/22/18 11:20 pm.
Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #732768
04/23/18 12:55 am
04/23/18 12:55 am
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Pasadena, California, USA
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Eric Eccleston Offline OP
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Yeah, I sort of thought there'd be no point to the longer bushes on the pre-featherbed "long" roadholders. It's just that I ordered a set of standard bushes from RGM, and they accidentally sent me the extended ones. Before I went to the trouble of sending them back, I was wondering if they would work just as well.


'69 Velocette Venom Clubman
'57 Norton 19S
'56 BMW R69
Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: L.A.B.] #732776
04/23/18 1:44 am
04/23/18 1:44 am
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Originally Posted by L.A.B.

"Long" (pre-Featherbed) Roadholders use a different damping arrangement to other Roadholders. As there are no damper rods/pistons/end caps to "clunk" it's debatable whether long bushes would work.


Note that some pre-featherbed Long Roadholders do come with damper rods/pistons/end caps,
the Nomad forks for example.

This supposedly does give an improved action to the earlier long roadholders,
which otherwise have quite a primitive action.
I came across a set of these a while back, hope to give them a tryout sometime.
They would seem to be able to be fitted to any earlier telescopic forks ?

I'm not quite sure if this is before/after/when Nortons were advertising 2 way damping,
when in fact they didn't. !!
As outlined in one of Roy Bacons' books - anyone know precisely when this was ?

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Rohan] #732789
04/23/18 6:24 am
04/23/18 6:24 am
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Originally Posted by Rohan
Note that some pre-featherbed Long Roadholders do come with damper rods/pistons/end caps,
the Nomad forks for example.


Nomad etc. "Long" Roadholders aren't "Pre-Featherbed".

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: L.A.B.] #732800
04/23/18 9:20 am
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Originally Posted by L.A.B.

Nomad etc. "Long" Roadholders aren't "Pre-Featherbed".


Most of the externals are ??

??? You'll have to explain whatever distinction you are making here ???

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Rohan] #732813
04/23/18 11:48 am
04/23/18 11:48 am
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Originally Posted by Rohan
Originally Posted by L.A.B.

Nomad etc. "Long" Roadholders aren't "Pre-Featherbed".



??? You'll have to explain whatever distinction you are making here ???



Only that with different internals they are not exactly "pre-Featherbed".

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #732865
04/23/18 10:03 pm
04/23/18 10:03 pm
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They are still Long Roadholders though, nethertheless. ?

Long Roadholders had quite a long run over the years, with many variants,
they didn't just stop at your 'prefeatherbed' variety, development continued.

Perhaps irrelevant for Eric here, but savvy owners could fit updated parts,
they are all largely interchangeable, always worth checking/watching for...?

P.S. It should be possible to fit a Lansdowne damper conversion to Long Roadholders,
they are close enough in dimensions. Perhaps folks don't ride their old iron hard enough to need to try this ?
You might end up with a mix of thread types, which would need sorting out.
I've got this on a (long) list of similar possible things to try out, sometime....

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #732977
04/24/18 11:07 pm
04/24/18 11:07 pm
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Pasadena, California, USA
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Eric Eccleston Offline OP
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Problem solved. When I asked RGM if I could just go ahead and fit the longer bushes, they simply replied that they'll send out the correct ones right away, and keep the long ones for my trouble. Maybe I need to get a Dominator or Commando to go with those long bushes!!! 😁


'69 Velocette Venom Clubman
'57 Norton 19S
'56 BMW R69
Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #732988
04/25/18 12:10 am
04/25/18 12:10 am
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Concord Township, Ohio
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The Nomad uses the "Pre-Featherbed AMC type frame, so in a way, yes, the Nomad is pre-featherbed, not by year, but by equipment. The Nomad does use a Norton "Long" Roadholder fork per se, but it has some Matchless internals (long story). To address the original question Eric, I would use them, or if it was worriesome, have a local shop shorten them, or mail them to me & I am happy to do it for you for free. You may remember, I contacted you some years ago as I was starting my '57 Model 77 project at the time & I believe you were doing a 19S, correct? Please PM me for more info smile

All the best,

Skip


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1948 Norton 500T Trials bike
1950 Norton Model 7
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc Desert sled
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: 57nortonmodel77] #732995
04/25/18 1:22 am
04/25/18 1:22 am
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Originally Posted by 57nortonmodel77
To address the original question Eric, I would use them, or if it was worriesome, have a local shop shorten them, or mail them to me & I am happy to do it for you for free.



However, although the RGM bush is longer, there are only two short sections of bush inside (at the ends with a recessed section between see pic. below) which together are no more than the length of the standard bush, so cutting them down would leave them with only half the bearing area of the original bush.

[Linked Image]

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: L.A.B.] #733017
04/25/18 11:04 am
04/25/18 11:04 am
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Concord Township, Ohio
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Hi L.A.B., you are correct ! I hadnt had one in my hand in a while smile


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My Bikes
1948 Norton 500T Trials bike
1950 Norton Model 7
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc Desert sled
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: L.A.B.] #733618
04/30/18 7:50 pm
04/30/18 7:50 pm
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koan58 Offline
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LAB thanks for that info.

I assume that they are not tapered, as the pic seems to show.

I can understand why they would not be the same ID all the length (stiction), but if I designed them they would have most of their bearing area in the usual place, with just a small collar at the bottom to provide the bump stop.

Maybe I'm missing something?

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: koan58] #733620
04/30/18 8:07 pm
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Originally Posted by koan58
I assume that they are not tapered, as the pic seems to show.


I don't remember them being tapered.

Originally Posted by koan58
I can understand why they would not be the same ID all the length (stiction), but if I designed them they would have most of their bearing area in the usual place, with just a small collar at the bottom to provide the bump stop.

Maybe I'm missing something?


It's about equal.
https://www.accessnorton.com/NortonCommando/oh-no-not-another-fork-upgrade-thread.4965/
[Linked Image]

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #733771
05/02/18 4:25 am
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Speaking of Long RoadHolders and bushes, can anyone suggest why this pair of stanchions has one with all bronze bushes, and one with a bronze and a steel lower bush. ? I'd have thought that a steel bush wouldn't be a very good idea there, it would wear the sliders insides faster ??

Or, does anyone supply steel bushes for there, and why ??

[Linked Image]

P.S. The stanchions are scrap, badly affected by rust, but never mind that....

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #734127
05/04/18 8:37 pm
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The lower bushes have always been steel in my experience. Maybe it's the hard and soft principle? The soft bronze runs on the hard steel stanchion, the hard steel bush runs in the soft alloy slider?

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #734187
05/05/18 8:57 am
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It may not be entirely obvious, but the lower of those 2 fork stanchions has 2 bronze bushes.

Thats the only way I have ever received a new set of bushes, they have always been bronze.
Long Roadholders, Short Roadholders, Commando RoadHolders...

And I would have thought that wearing out the alloy slider before a mere (replaceable) steel bush would have been an upside down way of of organising it ?
So, I'm not buying it !?
Thanks.

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #734189
05/05/18 9:29 am
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Andover Norton Short Roadholder Dominator set I bought, God knows when, had steel bottom bushes.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #734191
05/05/18 9:35 am
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Normally when you have a hard & soft material running against one another it's the hard one that wears more as particles get embedded in the soft material and act like grinding paste.

I have less experience than many but the 3 sets of forks I've stripped all had steel bottom bushes.


Ian.

1952 Norton ES2
1982 Moto Guzzi V50
Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #734192
05/05/18 9:54 am
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The bottom bushes I have ready to go into Commando legs are steel, sourced from NOC, Andover Norton's current offering looks very steel like too as did the ones I took out which date from pre 1988.

https://andover-norton.co.uk/en/shop-details/17095/fork-bottom-bush-nmt-1048-b2-606-

[Linked Image]

A steel bush running is aluminium alloy is not uncommon, most automotive shell bearings are aluminium/Tin alloy running on steel journals.

The question of whether the steel will wear the alloy or visa versa in a standard bike is only of concern if you change the oil regularly, if not then all the steel components rust sends ferrous oxide particles into the oil making it a grinding paste.

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: kommando] #734237
05/05/18 9:33 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
most automotive shell bearings are aluminium/Tin alloy running on steel journals.


Most automotive shell bearings derived from the old (soft) babbit metal on a steel shell - once you got down through the soft stuff to the steel shell then trouble was likely to follow, so I'm not so sure that is a good example !!?

How curious then that I've only previously come across bronze bushes for Roadholders ?
I wouldn't have expected steel bushes in there to rust ?, they are bathed in oil.
Unless water has replaced the oil.?
I've certainly come across forks which had plenty of gunk down the bottom and were obviously well used.

I wonder then when the specification changed for the lower bush to steel from bronze ?
"Built in the light of experience" ??

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #734238
05/05/18 9:36 pm
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The forks do collect water. No doubt about that.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #734269
05/06/18 7:13 am
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The rust comes from the steel rod as it sits above the oil and then the rust is removed as the rod moves up and down inside the damper cap, hence changing the rod to aluminium and providing a compatible bearing material in the damper cap gives proper rebound damping and reduces the rust.

Re: Extended upper bushes on "long" roadholders? [Re: Eric Eccleston] #734331
05/06/18 9:43 pm
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My early experiences with short roadholders were late 70's early 80's. The stanchions were plain steel, which would rust and ruin the seals in short order.

I wasn't aware of any alternatives at the time, so in about 1982 I sent an old pair of tubes off to a hard chrome plating place. Those continue to serve fine to this day.

Were old stanchions really plain steel?

I've never seen other than a steel bush at the bottom of a roadholder leg.

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