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Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #729767 03/24/18 3:23 am
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Today was a day not without progress. The first photograph shows an adapter I made to hold the protractor on the crankshaft, and the second shows the setup with one indicator to find TDC, the other to measure the pushrod lift, and a box spanner to turn the crankshaft. The third photograph shows the setup from the other side. An O-ring on each pushrod centralizes them in the covers.

My previous measurements directly of the cam found the maximum lift of the intake lobe was 0.351". However, the maximum lift of the intake pushrod is only 0.301". How can that be? I'm glad you asked. The fourth photograph shows the tappet geometry with the approximate normals to the cam and the lifter in red. The angle between them is approximately 30o and cos(30o) x 0.351" = 0.304".

Although the geometry makes it straightforward to do this calculation at TDC, doing so at arbitrary angles complicates the geometry because one would have to take into account the radii of curvature of both ends of the cam follower as well as the length between the follower's faces to the pivot shaft, which is not a constant. While setting up this problem on a computer certainly could be done it would be difficult and time consuming. Because of this, Val Page and his fellow engineers who designed this valve train 90 years ago with nothing more than slide rules and trigonometry tables definitely deserve our respect. I also understand why when an engineer like Page arrived at a successful engine (e.g. for the '28 Ariel) he would copy as many elements of the design as possible for later engines (e.g. for the '38 Gold Star), rather than start from scratch.

Returning to the bare camshaft, the Ariel manual calls for 'nil' clearance for the tappets, but my measurements show that 'nil' is not enough. The roughly half of the cam that's the base circle should have a constant radius so if the clearance is set to 'nil' there it should stay 'nil'. Unfortunately, the base circle varies by 0.0041" on the inlet cam and 0.0068" on the exhaust cam. That is, if the clearance were set to 'nil' on some random portion of the base circle it could push the exhaust valve open by as much as ~0.007" (and the inlet by ~0.004") somewhere else on the base circle when it needs to be closed. Clearly, that would be a problem. But, having measured both cams I can set the crankshaft to a known angle and set the tappet clearances appropriately.

By the way, measuring the lift vs. angle takes a long time and is tedious work. There are data logging rigs sold for this task and if I were going to do this more than a few times I would be designing one of my own.

One other development is the valve guide reamer and two ball hones were delivered this afternoon.

Attached Files
TimingDisc01.jpg (55.81 KB, 1166 downloads)
Cam_lift04.jpg (101.05 KB, 1169 downloads)
Cam_lift02.jpg (89.54 KB, 1195 downloads)
Cam_lift03.jpg (68.52 KB, 1163 downloads)
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Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #729866 03/25/18 4:43 am
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Unfortunately, I did absolutely nothing motorcycle related today. Oh, wait, that isn't true...

Although it only makes sense in the same relative sense as any of the other motorcycle things I do, but after a 250-mile round-trip drive today I'm now the owner of a Sunnen MBB-1660 hone with roughly 75 mandrels from ~0.1" to 2.5"-6.5" (i.e. a mandrel for honing cylinders, like that of the Ariel that finally convinced me that I need a Sunnen hone). For skeptics who might think this purchase makes no economic sense whatever, what you fail to realize is that amortized over all the cylinders and bushes I expect to do in the years to come it... well, it still makes no economic sense whatever. But, when has that ever been a valid consideration when you want something? As an added bonus, it gives my heirs yet another heavy piece of equipment to deal with.

The Sunnen's first job will be the Ariel's valve guides (once I get the hone into the garage as well as the guides machined and installed), for which I now don't need the reamer and ball hones I received from Goodson just yesterday. Oh well, as my mantra with the Ariel has become, it's only money...

A decade ago, using a reamer, I failed to make my own needle jets with sufficient accuracy and quality to be useful. Now, with the Sunnen I have a second chance. This might or might not be useful for the Ariel as well since the bike will spend most of the Cannonball running in the range of that jet. I have a pile of used needle jets of the appropriate style for its carburetor so, in conjunction with my air/fuel meter, I hope to be able to tweak a few of the smaller ones to give optimum mileage. Not necessarily to save money on fuel, but to save walking the last few miles on the days where stations will be far apart.

Attached Files
SunnenHone.jpg (60.32 KB, 1123 downloads)
Last edited by Magnetoman; 03/25/18 8:06 pm. Reason: added photograph
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #729956 03/26/18 4:07 am
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Working alone it took me about 4x longer to take the hone off the trailer today than it took the seller and me to put it there yesterday. Using Egyptian pyramid building technology I got the pallet onto two furniture moving dollies (rated at 1000 lbs. ea. whereas the hone weighs less than 700 lbs). I have a winch I modified to mount on my pickup that I use to pull bikes up a ramp into the bed when working alone. I used the winch in reverse to slowly lower the hone down a ramp at the back of the trailer.

The next problem was to get the hone off the pallet. Unfortunately, the pallet was much wider than the legs of my engine hoist so Egyptian technology was again deployed to get the hone off the pallet and onto the furniture dollies. At that point I cleared a path and pushed it to its new home. Once again Egyptian technology lowered it from the dollies to sea level.

It all sounds easy, but it was a full eight-hour day by the time the hone was in place, the various straps and tools put away, and the trailer parked.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #729998 03/26/18 3:45 pm
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Hello, I do admire Your job! I have made a bit similar reasearch when rebuilding mine 1929 model F, but far not goes as deep as Yours!

1. I have checked my crankshaft is balanced about 55% actually and this is not good for vibrations at about 95 km/h plus, I will try more balance, let’s say 65% when next time working on big end. I have a big 23th engine sprocket, stock Burman clutch basket and sprocket and the smallest possible to bolt to the rear wheel 42 tooth as far as I remember. Piston is as flat as Yours. Stock cycle parts, exhaust, bigger carb.

2. More important – I suggest to use a splined, hardened, finished thin – about 1mm - washer between a sprocket and a washer 18 with pack of nuts 16 at attached picture. In “Black Ariels” the sprocket itself push directly on washer with tab and nuts, so there is a lot of rotating movement that create heat and make a possible seize of parts or make nuts loose. This happened to me once when travelling, see photo. I will make required washer by cutting a slice from spare “sliding member”.

I have a problem with attached pictures, will work on it.

BR, Tomek


Last edited by TOMEK; 03/26/18 3:51 pm.

1929 Ariel Mod.F
1938 NSU 501 OSL
2001 TDM850
2002 TDM900
2017 KTM250EXC
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: TOMEK] #730001 03/26/18 4:35 pm
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Originally Posted by TOMEK
I have a problem with attached pictures, will work on it.
Thanks very much for your post. I don't understand your point 2 but I'm sure a picture would explain it.

If you want to attach photos (up to a maximum of 5) to a post select the 'Use Full Editor' button as shown in the 1st image below. You will automatically get the Full Editor screen if you 'Edit' a previous post, but you have to specifically select it if you are writing a new post. A new screen will open that looks like the 2nd image below. Click on the 'Attachment Manager' button. This will open the 3rd screen shown in the 3rd image.

When you click on 'Select File to Attach' it will open the file manager on your own computer. Move through the directories to find the one containing the photo, or photos, you want to attach. Click on the first one and wait patiently for it to upload. When it is finished uploading that photo a small thumbnail image will appear. If you don't wait for the thumbnail the upload will be aborted but there will be no error message to tell you what you did wrong. Once the thumbnail appears you can either select a second photo and go through the process again or, if you are done, you can click on 'Done.'

Attached Files
upload0.jpg (59.03 KB, 1044 downloads)
upload1.jpg (82.29 KB, 1055 downloads)
upload2.jpg (46.35 KB, 1048 downloads)
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730032 03/27/18 12:49 am
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I'm going to be tied up with other things so I won't have much opportunity for motorcycle-related work over the next few days. I did, however, take the time to inventory all the mandrels that came with the hone as well as go through several Sunnen manuals and create a cheat sheet (actually, six pages) of useful tables and information. This should make things go faster when I get to the valve guides. The two guides that came with the springs and valves will be very useful for developing and testing my technique on cast iron as well as determining the approximate material removal rate.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730058 03/27/18 8:17 am
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I don't know whether to feel gratitude or sympathy for your generosity or expression of your symptoms, MM. Ahhhh, to hell with it... Thanks very much for all your efforts, sir. I do really enjoy every post you write. It's always a pleasure and I appreciate the time you spend chronicling your disease, uh... I mean
adventures!

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730129 03/28/18 2:46 am
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Originally Posted by L.A.kevin
I don't know whether to feel gratitude or sympathy...
Sympathy definitely is called for. Not for me, but for my long-suffering family who have had to live with my various obsessions. Luckily, I'm in a position that adding a Sunnen hone doesn't put their financial security in too much peril, although it does represent an additional future disposal headache for the heirs.

The aphorism "Buy the book, then buy the bike..." er, "hone," applies here as it does in many other places. Sunnen has been making hones forever and, other than the paint job, ones made fifty years ago look pretty much like ones made today. But, the capabilities have changed. Small holes, like the 11/32" (~0.344") in the Ariel's valve guides require higher speeds than are provided by older machines. Really small holes, like the 0.106" of a needle jet, require the highest speed of 2500 rpm. Yes, someone could run a small mandrel at 5 rpm if they wanted to, just as someone could (and has) use a pipe wrench to remove the bezel of a Chronometric speedometer.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730140 03/28/18 7:19 am
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Just leave a set of these in the workshop.

[Linked Image]


Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: kommando] #730160 03/28/18 2:34 pm
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Originally Posted by kommando
Just leave a set of these in the workshop.
Those would have made the move faster this weekend (and would have helped erect pyramids faster as well).

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730168 03/28/18 3:31 pm
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I used to borrow them from work, used them on a lathe, milling machine, large pillar drill and a rayburn oven, they make it some much easier when either lifting them on and off a trolley which takes minutes. With the lathe that would have crushed the trolley so I just lifted it enough for 4 scaffolding tubes to be fitted underneath, dropped and rolled it into position and then lifted it to get the tubes back out. You can get away with 2 as long as you have plenty of wooden wedges and a helper to tap the wedges in as you lift each end to stop it tipping over but 3 or 4 is better.

I no longer have access to them so for a new coal burning stove arriving in June I will be buying a pair of Agricultural/farm jacks but they will not not as good.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by kommando; 03/28/18 3:54 pm. Reason: added farm jack
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: kommando] #730182 03/28/18 7:02 pm
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Those jacks are a great way to get heavy items from floor level to 4 inches or so.

I noted your comment:

Originally Posted by kommando
With the lathe that would have crushed the trolley


A few years ago I acquired a pallet truck and even though I only use it occasionally (although more often that I thought I would) I would recommend getting one to anyone who may need to move a lathe or other machine because once the machine is 4 inches up the pallet truck makes it a breeze to move it around the workshop. The downside is storing it if you are short of space but the benefits outweigh the downsides.

In fact MM and my life was in parallel this week because yesterday I did a 580 mile round trip to collect a piece of machinery to feed the bike hobby and the pallet truck was invaluable this morning moving it into my workshop.

John



Last edited by George Kaplan; 03/28/18 7:03 pm. Reason: typo
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: George Kaplan] #730214 03/29/18 3:13 am
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Originally Posted by kommando
used them on a lathe, milling machine,...
Originally Posted by George Kaplan
A few years ago I acquired a pallet truck
A pallet truck (or pallet jack, in American) certainly can be useful, but typically my engine hoist works to move just about anything (including my lathe and mill). Its wheels don't turn as easily as those on a pallet jack so it would be a headache if I moved things all the time, but I don't, so it isn't.

In the case of the hone a pallet jack wouldn't have been incredibly useful offloading because it would be too low to make the transition from the trailer to ramp, and it wouldn't have lifted the pallet high enough by itself to fit the furniture dollies under it. Kommando's jack would have been very useful, though, saving me from levering it up in stages from pallet, to 2x4, to 4x4, to 2x4 + 4x4, to furniture dollies. Even once off the trailer the pallet was too wide to allow it to be moved to where it needed to be in the garage so I first had to get the hone off the pallet. At that point the pallet jack wouldn't have been useful with the bare hone, but kommando's jacks would have been.

There are small forklifts which do the job of a pallet jack plus lift to greater altitudes. Unfortunately, they take up a lot of room, and room is at a premium (more so now that a hone has claimed some of the formerly free territory).

More than once I've thought an A-frame should be seriously considered (which would have been great for the hone), but I've always stopped myself because I don't plan to buy any more pieces of heavy equipment. Once again, I don't plan to buy any more pieces of heavy equipment equipment...

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730258 03/29/18 12:06 pm
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"Once again, I don't plan to buy any more pieces of heavy equipment equipment..."
At least--not until the next time-------

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730281 03/29/18 2:49 pm
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I think you must leave instructions for your family on how to move everything after your demise, or at least the phone number of the machine movers wink

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: robcurrie] #730295 03/29/18 5:25 pm
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Originally Posted by Tridentman
At least--not until the next time-------
It's interesting how there always seems to be a 'next time', isn't it?

Originally Posted by robcurrie
I think you must leave instructions for your family on how to move everything after your demise,
In all seriousness, I started working on that a couple of years ago as a result of an acquaintance in town leaving his widow with a dozen bikes and a shed filled with tools and spares. For example, I changed to the titles of the bikes so they are now in the name of a family trust. If both my wife and I die in a plane crash my daughters could sell them immediately because they wouldn't go into probate. Further, all the titles are in one location along with my valuation of each of them (as well as of the lathe, mill, etc.) so my family would know how to respond to an offer of $2k to take "an old piece of junk" off their hands (e.g. DBD Gold Star).

Despite all of us being immortal, I recommend others consider taking similar steps. It's a lot of work, but we know better than anyone else the value of our stuff. If you don't do this chances are your widow and children won't get anything like the full worth of your stuff.



Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730334 03/30/18 12:41 am
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+1 with MMan.
Although we all live our lives as if we are immortal we all have to face the reality that we are not.
None of us know how much longer we have-------
So I fully endorse Mmans comments--I have been working on and off for the last year to get all of my bike stuff in order.
Lists of bikes and valuations and if not placed in a family trust then at least think about signing the titles as if you were selling them on---this could help your family tremendously in what will be a very traumatic and sad time for them.
Morbid perhaps but certainly reality.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730349 03/30/18 7:31 am
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It may be a bit of a morbid subject but,as the saying goes, the only certainties in life are death and taxes.

The two are linked because on your death your estate may be subject to inheritance tax. I know someone who is into classic car racing who has titled his cars in his families name so that when he dies they are not part of his estate. I cant condone this due to it being questionable from a legal point of view but it is food for thought.

John

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: George Kaplan] #730351 03/30/18 8:24 am
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Following the diversion.......I'm sure MM will bring us back quickly. I sold 20 bikes in the past 2 + years so that the kids wouldn't have to deal with them, or so they wouldn't just end up taken to the land fill.


Alan
Cleared m out....left only
59 BSA Bantam (Trials)
78 Triumph Bonny (UPS)
02 Suzuki GS500
Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730395 03/30/18 8:19 pm
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I just got back from a short trip to the frigid Midwest, but before I left I downloaded eleven Sunnen technical booklets and manuals. I read all of them at least twice en route there and back so while still at 30,000 ft. I was awarded (by me) the coveted HET Certificate (Honing Expert, Theoretical). This weekend theory will be turned into practice.

I knew there were a lot of mandrels and stones involved but I hadn't appreciated how many. Since each mandrel covers only a small size interval, just the range 1/8"-1" requires 80 mandrels in 9 "series." And that's just for "standard" mandrels, with other variations available with greater reach, wider stones for dealing with keyways, etc.

Each "series" of mandrels shares stones, which is good, because for optimum results at least three stones of different properties (i.e. grit and abrasive) for each material would be required. This means that, considering only steels, cast irons, and bronzes, a total number of different stones approaching 100 would have to be on hand if someone wanted to be prepared ahead of time to deal with just the range 1/8"-1". While the ~80 mandrels that came with my hone don't prepare me for all possibilities I might encounter with old motorcycles, and they also include ones larger than 1", they do a pretty good job preparing me for most. If I encounter something unusual I can deal with it by adding a special mandrel or stone when needed.

For some time I had been looking at April 1 as a hope-for (as well as appropriate...) completion date for the rebuild. I won't make that deadline but it looks like I won't miss it by much (knock wood). Overestimating the times required for the remaining work by a fair amount (I hope), it looks like it should be ready for the first shake-down cruise in another week or so:

-- 1 day. Machine the guides, install and hone them, and bolt the head on the engine.
-- 1 day. Make new Stellite-tipped push rods and bolt the rocker box in place, finishing the engine.
-- 1 day. Rebuild the gearbox using the new "High Standard" gear cluster and do the necessary machining and welding to adapt the larger gearbox sprocket.
-- 1 day. Rebuild the magneto.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730569 04/01/18 6:18 pm
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Circumstances kept me from having much time yesterday, and today won't be much better. Still, progress is made when something gets done even on days like these.

The hone came with mandrels completely filling four holders, resulting in reorganization gridlock. So, I found an additional holder on eBay and yesterday re-reinventoried and re-reorganized the mandrels. As a result I "found" two mandrels whose existence my previous inventories had missed and "discovered" that Sunnen sneaks some metric-based mandrels into their parts lists making it easy (for me) to think there were gaps in my mandrels when there weren't. For example, one mandrel on the Sunnen list covers .385-.400", the next one covers .383-.405, and the next .400-.416. Although the middle one is missing from my set, closer inspection of the list shows it isn't needed. That middle one is supplied by Sunnen to cover a range centered on 10 mm.

Anyway, only three mandrels were missing to continuously cover the range from 0.120" to 0.931", and three more would give me the Imperialistically useful larger sizes of 7/8", 15/16" and 1". One of the three missing smaller sizes covers 7/16" so I've now ordered it, as well as 7/8" and 1" from sellers on eBay. Should I ever need 15/16", or to hone a clearance bore for 47/256" (0.184"), I'll search for those missing mandrels at that time.

In addition to the missing mandrels I ordered stones for the Ariel's guides. The mandrel for 11/32" came with a stone in it but I ordered the specific ones Sunnen recommends for stock removal of cast iron plus the 500 grit needed to obtain the sub-5 microinch surface finish on cast iron called for with modern guides.

Also included were hones of a different type for larger bores, for ranges covering 1-1/4", 1-1/2", 1-3/4" and 1-7/8" as well as the invaluable AN600 that covers 2.5"-4.2". Three sets of stones came with it, two of which are the 150 grit we need for our old bikes, so I'm set for life for honing the cylinders of everything from a 250cc BSA (2.6") to a 1000cc Vincent (3.3"), and beyond. Also, the ~80 other mandrels should take care of any engine, gearbox, girder fork, or whatever other motorcycle bush I will ever encounter.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730593 04/02/18 12:10 am
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No work whatever on the Ariel today thanks to Easter egg hiding duties for the granddaughters plus horse trailer maintenance duties for the daughter. The trailer has simple hinges on all the doors, but unlike hardware store hinges made with folded metal so the pivot pins can be lubricated, these hinges have no way of getting lubrication into them. So, I had to painstakingly jack up its 6 ft. x 6 ft. rear door while lubricating, pounding, and jostling the door side-to-side to finally expose ~1" of the pins. Kroil penetrating oil did its job and it got progressively easier to swing the door. I applied a more serious lubricant at that point and the door worked its way back into position after a few swings.

One of the three hinges on a smaller side door was rusted solid and as a result it took longer to deal with than the back door. I also had to rebuild the locking mechanism. One of the hinges on the door on the other side was broken completely off ("It broke a long time ago, dad") and I would have welded it but I first needed to remove it to deal with the rust. Otherwise it would have kept the door from opening. However, it wouldn't budge and since it had been a long-enough day, and since the hinge had been that way "a long time," I decided it can stay that way a little longer. Anyway, by the time I was done with the trailer, I was done for the day.

Tomorrow, back to the Ariel.

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730598 04/02/18 12:51 am
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Be careful, MM, we wouldn't want you becoming unhinged before you finished the Ariel !

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Triless] #730601 04/02/18 1:03 am
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Originally Posted by Triless
we wouldn't want you becoming unhinged before you finished the Ariel !
Thank you for not pointing out I had to be unhinged in order to begin with the Ariel...

Re: 1928 Ariel Model C [Re: Magnetoman] #730649 04/02/18 3:49 pm
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For spares you might consider joining the Black Ariel Klub Slovensko. Who make a range of new spares!.A case of their Black Ariel energy drink may help with the inspiration.

Last edited by norton bob; 04/02/18 4:00 pm.
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