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Gearbox MA13279G #727082
02/28/18 4:17 pm
02/28/18 4:17 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 329
Concord Township, Ohio
57nortonmodel77 Offline OP
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57nortonmodel77  Offline OP
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Concord Township, Ohio
Hello all,

I am trying to identify where an orphan AMC gearbox should go. The number stamped on it is: MA13279G
So, I assume the MA is Matchless/AJS, not sure what the "G" at the end means, and would any of this narrow down a time frame, or model??

Thanks in advance,

Skip


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1948 Norton 500T Trials bike
1950 Norton Model 7
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc Desert sled
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
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Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: 57nortonmodel77] #727625
03/05/18 1:35 pm
03/05/18 1:35 pm
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 145
Arizona USA
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AZScott Offline
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Arizona USA
Hi Skip,
Not sure if this will help you, but I have a 55 Matchless G80s, which I believe has the original gearbox as verified through the matchless dating officer, and it's number is GB 26 G55 N885. The "G" in the middle of the number appears to me to be a "C" but I was told it was a "G".

I also had a 1951 G80s and its gearbox was marked G2E51, but do not remember the Sn#.

Hope this helps
Doug


74 Norton 850 Commando68 Triumph Bonneville
69 Triumph Bonneville
55 Matchless G80s
55 Triumph Tiger T110
Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: 57nortonmodel77] #727795
03/06/18 10:03 pm
03/06/18 10:03 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,116
Oztralia
R
Rohan Offline
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Oztralia
These are both Burman boxes, so pre AMC ones.

You should be able to tell if this AMC box is early or late - ie Mark 1 or Mark 2 type.
Early 1960s, the kickstart area was modified for better support/action.

Other than that, the same box and shafts are listed in the parts book as used across all models. (?).
Noting that boxes for AMC models had different lugs than those for Nortons

Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: AZScott] #727928
03/08/18 12:26 am
03/08/18 12:26 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 329
Concord Township, Ohio
57nortonmodel77 Offline OP
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57nortonmodel77  Offline OP
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Posts: 329
Concord Township, Ohio
Thank you Doug, that is very helpful !

To clear things up, It is definitely NOT a Burman box & is definitely an AMC box. And of course the Norton AMC boxes started with an "N" or "NA" and had bosses nearly one above the other, and then the Matchless/AJS ones started with an M, or MA depending on the year, with bosses offset. On my factory Norton AMV gearbox blueprint I show part numbers for the different AMC cases, but it doesn't break down the Matchless/AMC serial numbers & what they represent A friend has this particular AMC box & has no need for it, but wanted to identify it as best as he could.

The AMC gearbox is one of the most successful of it's type ever designed. It has found a home in everything from AJS singles to fast, racing Commandos. It has a simplicity and robustness that makes it a favorite in Tritons and other specials.

After Associated Motor Cycles took over Norton in 1953, the gearbox was taken on as a project to be set up for use in multiple applications. The four speed AMC box was used first in AJS and Matchless heavyweights in 1956. In late '56 the box made it's way in to the 1957 Dominator 88 and 99, ES2, International and Model 50. The box has a history that extends back to the earlier Burman four speed gearbox, and from there to the even earlier Sturmey Archer box. They are so similar that some parts are interchangeable across the board.

The design was so good that it received minimal changes until the end of Commando production. The kickstart spring design was changed in 1962 (64 for Norton). The markings on the top of the case have an M for Matchless or an N for Norton. After the spring mod this was changed to MA and NA. The early spring had a right angle bend that went into a hole in the case, where the later spring wound around a dowel pin.

Another difference in the AMC boxes was on the clutch adjuster. On the early boxes, the clutch cable was adjusted at the gearbox, so the outer cover has a threaded hole for the cable adjuster to screw into, the later models had the adjustment at the handlebar, so the hole in the gearbox for the cable had no threads, just a hole that the cable bushing would fit into. I believe this change happened in 1957, depending on the model, and the auctual date of manufacture, rather than the model year.

The Commando gearbox was always stamped with the numerical portion on the engine number, and should match the frame as well. 750 models are within a 100000 to 200000 series, and 850 boxes are in the 300000 series. The casing on the Commando was also reduced at the upper mounting bosses to make installation easier. It was thinned and a separate spacer was fitted between the engine mounting cradle and the box. Leaving this out can distort the cradle, so be careful!

In 1968, at number 128646, the high gear pair was modified for strength and durability, and these gears must be a matched set. The tooth profile and number was altered and they will not mesh properly if they are mixed. This also raised the ratio of first, second and third gears. Later on the 850 Commando, the second gear pair was altered starting at number 306591 to enable the bike to pass tougher noise regulations. The test involved passing a noise meter in second gear at a certain speed, so the gearing was altered to allow this to happen at lower revs. Clever those Brits.


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My Bikes
1948 Norton 500T Trials bike
1950 Norton Model 7
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc Desert sled
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: 57nortonmodel77] #727935
03/08/18 1:21 am
03/08/18 1:21 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,116
Oztralia
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Rohan Offline
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Originally Posted by 57nortonmodel77
The box has a history that extends back to the earlier Burman four speed gearbox


Careful there, the AMC gearbox has nothing much to do with any earlier Burman gearbox design.
Nothing at all.

It was wholly a development of the earlier Norton designs of boxes, which were in turn a few developments down the track of the 1920s and early 1930s Sturmey Archer DESIGNS. (Dolls Head, Upright, then Laydown boxes.)

If you see the bearing out of a Sturmey box, you soon realise that SA boxes and the Norton designed boxes don't actually have much in common. Hence these, specially made.
https://www.eBay.co.uk/i/263481001036

A good historian always quotes their sources, where did you plagerize your spiel from Skip ?

Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: Rohan] #728471
03/13/18 11:35 am
03/13/18 11:35 am
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 329
Concord Township, Ohio
57nortonmodel77 Offline OP
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57nortonmodel77  Offline OP
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Concord Township, Ohio
Anyone who posts that an AMC box with an MA prefix is a Burman box isnt worth my time. Also, FWIW, my previous post is from personal experience, & 3 other sources including 2 owners club historians. The previous post stands as true & accurate.


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1948 Norton 500T Trials bike
1950 Norton Model 7
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc Desert sled
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: Rohan] #728515
03/13/18 9:26 pm
03/13/18 9:26 pm
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Posts: 2,116
Oztralia
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Rohan Offline
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Originally Posted by 57nortonmodel77
Anyone who posts that an AMC box with an MA prefix is a Burman box isnt worth my time.


Where did someone say that ?

Hang on, isn't that what YOU are saying ?? !! ?? !!


Originally Posted by 57nortonmodel77, before
The box has a history that extends back to the earlier Burman four speed gearbox


Again, AMC boxes have NOTHING to do with any earlier Burman box.

Your words/sources are either imprecise, or meant something different, or just plain wrong.
Serious lack of clarity, meladdie, lack of clarity ??

My technical writers proof readers red pen would put a big red circle about that one.

Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: 57nortonmodel77] #728517
03/13/18 9:40 pm
03/13/18 9:40 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,116
Oztralia
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Rohan Offline
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BTW, I've got MA 25xx.

Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: 57nortonmodel77] #728781
03/16/18 3:24 pm
03/16/18 3:24 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 606
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
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Isle of Wight, UK
Yer talking at cross-purposes (Rohan & 57).

Rohan correctly identified AZ's gearboxes as Burman, then he started talking about "this AMC box" (yours 57).

Then 57 gets the wrong end of the stick, and thinks Rohan's describing his g/b as Burman.

Plagiarism, rather than "from personal experience, & 3 other sources including 2 owners club historians." is derived verbatim from:

http://preservationcycle.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=192:the-norton-commando-gearbox&catid=86&Itemid=1739

I must agree it should be made plain that such an extract is indicated as such, not just pasted in as your own writing.

Whether there is a historical engineering evolution between SA, Burman & AMC boxes is another matter beyond my knowledge.

Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: koan58] #729283
03/20/18 1:59 pm
03/20/18 1:59 pm
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 329
Concord Township, Ohio
57nortonmodel77 Offline OP
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57nortonmodel77  Offline OP
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Concord Township, Ohio
KOA58, your link is a copy, of a copy, of a modified copy, of my original poston on the Norton Owners Club posting in the UK, years ago.

My original posting on this forum simply was:

" I am trying to identify where an orphan AMC gearbox should go. The number stamped on it is: MA13279G
So, I assume the MA is Matchless/AJS, not sure what the "G" at the end means, and would any of this narrow down a time frame, or model??

Thanks in advance,

Skip "

Rohan has no idea what he is talking about most of the time & loves drama & the last word. I was looking to help a friend identify what model/year AJS/Matchless this gearbox fit, not to deal with his typical self gratifying commentary.

Wish we had a user block button on this forum.


Magneto & Dynamo restorations & supplies

My Bikes
1948 Norton 500T Trials bike
1950 Norton Model 7
1952 Norton ES2
1957 Norton Model 77
1960 Norton Nomad 600cc Desert sled
1961 Norton ES2 (slimline)
1964 Norton Atlas Scrambler
1972 Bultaco Alpina
Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: 57nortonmodel77] #729313
03/20/18 9:28 pm
03/20/18 9:28 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,116
Oztralia
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Rohan Offline
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Originally Posted by 57nortonmodel77
The box has a history that extends back to the earlier Burman four speed gearbox


SO, HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THIS STATEMENT THEN ??
AMC and Burman boxes are quite separate designs, with no commonality whatsoever


Originally Posted by 57nortonmodel77
& the last word.


Yes, funny about that, folks post absolute bollocks and then try to defend it !!!!
What is scary is when folks don't seem to realise they are posting absolute bollocks..

[quote=57nortonmodel77
Wish we had a user block button on this forum.[/quote]

It could be very useful ..

---------

It has been discussed on assorted Norton forums that those stray letters on the end of the
gearbox numbers' meaning has been lost in the mists of time, no-one now seems to know what they signify.

I've got MA 25xx, but I doubt you'd be interested in the details...




Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: 57nortonmodel77] #729383
03/21/18 5:13 am
03/21/18 5:13 am
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 126
Armidale ,Australia
Matchman62 Offline

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Armidale ,Australia
O.k gentlemen,

Let’s please draw a line in the sand and move on. I was reluctant to post until now as I felt Koan58 pretty much summed up the misunderstanding.

The purpose of this forum is to share our passion in British motorcycles and help one another. I see no value in attacking someone personally because they offer information that you already possess, or have misunderstood, or to you seems irrelevant.

I am not going to go on and on, and am not going to debate the content of the posts, though I will say that I over at least the last 17 years I have never seen anything but the complete opposite of the comment about Rohan’s knowledge.

Skip I am home tomorrow, and will check with Roy Bacon, and get back to you on your question. I am not sure if you can tell a year by the number on the gearbox to a specific, or with model. I personally haven’t seen a letter at the end either. I believe some trial models had different ratios, if perhaps it maybe something along these lines? I will read up and check the three AMC gearboxes I have.

Cheers
Adrian
Moderator

Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: 57nortonmodel77] #729388
03/21/18 6:07 am
03/21/18 6:07 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,116
Oztralia
R
Rohan Offline
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Rohan  Offline
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Oztralia
Thanks Adrian, I'm not aware either that I've ever posted anything seriously misleading or wrong.
I like to think i have steered more than a few discussions back to solid facts....
Yes, its always disappointing when proper discussion gives way to abuse - don't shoot the messenger ?
Cheers.

Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: Rohan] #729392
03/21/18 6:29 am
03/21/18 6:29 am
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,504
OZ
Triless Online content
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OZ
Well, for whatever its worth, being a bit of a Matchless afficionado myself, I've always appreciated Rohan's posts, but we few, we lucky few, who have a genuine Collier Bros.product tend to be a bit cynical about the later stuff !

Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: Triless] #729396
03/21/18 7:57 am
03/21/18 7:57 am
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 126
Armidale ,Australia
Matchman62 Offline

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Armidale ,Australia
Or put Triumph engines in them...😊

Re: Gearbox MA13279G [Re: Matchman62] #729401
03/21/18 8:30 am
03/21/18 8:30 am
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,504
OZ
Triless Online content
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Triless  Online Content
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OZ
Good grief ! Who would do that ? I thought that was only done with Norton engines ! I reckon Phil Walker's twins were OK......and you can take that that to the bank !

Last edited by Triless; 03/21/18 8:32 am.

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