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Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #731027
04/05/18 8:47 pm
04/05/18 8:47 pm
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Manx Offline OP
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Right. Clutch time.

I fit my clutch this evening but it looks like my rod has worn short so I had to order a new one.

I also think that my clutch inner cable is too short .

Should the clutch mechanism (later type) be completely relaxed with the cable attached?

I think the cable length has been made shorter to compensate for the worn rod.

And how tight should the springs be? I think I read somewhere that one coil should be visible.
Does that sound right? It's lifting crooked on one spring should that one be backed off a little, or the others tightened?

Proberbly basic stuff for you guys.


1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
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Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #731064
04/06/18 12:47 am
04/06/18 12:47 am
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Posts: 4,068
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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The three ball ramp should be fully relaxed with the cable slack ( the 3 mounting screw heads should be visible through the three holes in the moving part), it will "click " loudly if it isnt. Screw the cable adjusters in at each end of the cable,theres about an inch on each one. Use the clutch pressure plate centre adjuster to set the push rod clearance about a 1/4 to 1/2 turn from touching. this beds in fast and closes as the plates settle in , recheck after a few hundred miles. or sooner.

Try setting the clutch springs with the centre stud just flush with the screw slot bottom, fix a pointer up using whatever comes to hand use the casing flange tapped holes to mount a screw with a bit of stiff wire. Spin the clutch withdrawn and tune out wobble by tightening the high spring, or slackening the low side.

A couple of finer points on tweaking the springs, the adjuster screws have a dimple /pip which engages with the end of the spring, when fine tuning bear this in mind, you can feel the pip ride over the spring end as you tighten, 1/2 turn adjustments that dont meet pip to spring end will change in use as it settles in, its better to err on the light side, your left hand and the clutch cable will last longer, you can always tighten up later if you get slip, this will show up in 3rd when tackling hills.
Aim for somewhere like 6 - 10 lbs pull at the hand lever with a spring balance to check .



This works for me with 750 springs. I dont know about the 7 plate set up , but it would be a good starting point, if it slips in use you can tighten them up later.

Shortening the cable to suit a worn rod is a bad idea,

have you got the ball bearing that goes between the end of the pushrod and the 3 ball ramp cup, if it was missing it might account for the pushrod discrepancy?

While you are in there slather the three ball mech with bearing grease , the black stuff with moly in it, then you will know where the black drool is coming from later, wink, it helps keep the clutch light.



Last edited by gavin eisler; 04/06/18 1:08 am.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #731075
04/06/18 4:44 am
04/06/18 4:44 am
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Manx Offline OP
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Thanks Gavin.

The little ball is there and so is the clicking noise, even with the adjusters fully backed off.

My manual only shows the early type clutch but that has a springy thing between mechanism and cable. Should the late type also have that?

My rod is about half a cm too short and looks cut. Almost looks like some numpty has cut it to compensate for too short inner .


1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #731076
04/06/18 5:19 am
04/06/18 5:19 am
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With some of the clutch conversion kits like the SRM pressure plate you had to shorten the rod about that much

Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: markoz] #731085
04/06/18 7:16 am
04/06/18 7:16 am
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Manx Offline OP
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I have the SRM pressure plate kit and its still too short.

My cylinder kit is sorted now and will be sent today along with a new clutch rod. smile


1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #731093
04/06/18 9:06 am
04/06/18 9:06 am
Joined: Aug 2001
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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The early type clutch has the springy thing, not yours the cable inner goes straight to the op arm., you need a new cable from the sound of it, either for a 70 or 71, or make your own. its not unusual to cut the push rod in half and add an extra ball bearing, you may get away with that. When cutting push rods, clean up cut on grinder , then heat to cherry red and quench in oil to harden the end.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #731096
04/06/18 10:10 am
04/06/18 10:10 am
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I make my own cables. I`m trying to find somewhere local that has cable elbows, so I can add one for better pipe clearence at the same time.

Yup, cherry red and quench in oil. will do, cheers.


1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #731105
04/06/18 12:32 pm
04/06/18 12:32 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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something to think about , to get the correct push rod length, remember that as the clutch pack wears down, the centre adjuster screw will be backed out, cut pushrod to length so that the centre adjuster is screwed almost flush with the lock nut for the new plate stack. As it wears in this leaves max adjustment.

The female threads into the outer ally case for the cable adjuster boss are 1/2" UNC, ( 13 tpi),, maybe get a small dia tube bend and weld to a drilled 1/2" UnC threaded rod about an inch long with lock nut to fit the casing , the adjuster could go mid cable. When I need stuff like this I go to the dump with a hack saw and an adjustable spanner, rake about in the metal skip for inspiration.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 04/06/18 12:45 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #731368
04/08/18 6:49 pm
04/08/18 6:49 pm
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Cables, wires and electrics all sorted.

According to tracking, the rest of the parts should be here by Friday... Not long now.

[Linked Image]

Hard to see on the pic but I found some flexy heat protective stuff (in metal) I fit to the clutch outer and when you bend it, it stays put. No Idea what its realy for but found it at my local hardware shop.

Last edited by Manx; 04/08/18 6:52 pm.

1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #731547
04/10/18 3:50 pm
04/10/18 3:50 pm
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Could someone post a photo of the correct route for a tbolt rocker feed pipe please?


1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #731976
04/15/18 6:36 pm
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Ok. Ive got a strange one here...

I`m finnished builing the top end and added oil and currently priming the motor.

When turning the motor over I get a click from the right hand inlet cam follower or cam. the others are silent.

What have I done wrong now?? Its not the tappet because I have taken the rod off the rocker arm to see if I could localise the sound.


1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #731983
04/15/18 7:17 pm
04/15/18 7:17 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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A tight cam follower might do this, strip , examine, maybe a burr, dirt ? Remove idler pinion and spin cam with no push rods before pulling the barrels, that should help isolate it.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #731989
04/15/18 8:22 pm
04/15/18 8:22 pm
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Ohh jezus..... thats 3 nights work. mad

Its a real real pain to fit and remove the head becaus there isn`t enough room to lift it without removing the studs.


1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #732001
04/15/18 10:22 pm
04/15/18 10:22 pm
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gavin eisler Online content
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Join the club , i got the lump in , then found the crank wouldnt turn last rebuild, cocked up the TS bearing spacing, now I just whistle at it and it jumps out ,I wish.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #732002
04/15/18 10:43 pm
04/15/18 10:43 pm
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NickL Offline
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That click is most likely to be the cam gear backlash as the valve spring loads change.
My motor is quiet when cold but once warm i get that noise, bit like a loose tappet.
You don't hear it at 6K+ so don't fret about it...............


Lamas are bigger than frogs.
No room for sanity here.
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #732032
04/16/18 4:40 am
04/16/18 4:40 am
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Before I went to bed I span the engine a couple of times on the kick start and it clicks just before the both inlet valves are activated. The cam and shims and bushes are brand new.
The only parts that are re-used are the followers but I inspected them and they didn't look worn and moved fine in the seats.

I also span the motor without the head on and it was silent.

Why would the cam gear click on the 2 outer lobes?


1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #732034
04/16/18 5:58 am
04/16/18 5:58 am
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Manx Offline OP
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Could it be that the followers dont quite follow the cam?

I used some sticky start up grease to keep the followers in the barrel but maybe that shouldn`t affect it while they are under spring pressure.

[Linked Image]

Didn`t get any sleep last night. cry

I`m loading up the video on youtube... comming soon

Last edited by Manx; 04/16/18 6:08 am.

1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #732041
04/16/18 7:49 am
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Here!


1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #732042
04/16/18 8:27 am
04/16/18 8:27 am
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Bry Online content

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As NickL has already mentioned, take a closer look at timing gear backlash as the source of the clicking noise.

I had a similar issue recently on a Triumph engine I built - http://www.britbike.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/728934/re-does-this-sound-right#Post728934. The dry timing gears made a considerable clicking noise, even although the backlash was not excessive. When I applied some oil to the gears, the noise reduced considerably and sounded normal, although I've not actually run the engine yet!


1946 Velocette MSS
1955 Triton
1959 Velocette Venom
1966 Triumph T120
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #732044
04/16/18 9:14 am
04/16/18 9:14 am
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Ahhhh....

I wasn`t ignoring Nick, I just wasn`t sure what he was saying.

The central timing gear went in dry and the sound could come from that area.

What did you oil yours with Bry?


1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #732045
04/16/18 9:31 am
04/16/18 9:31 am
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Bry Online content

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I just squired some 20W/50 engine oil on the idler gear teeth with an oil can to test with the timing cover off.


1946 Velocette MSS
1955 Triton
1959 Velocette Venom
1966 Triumph T120
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #732047
04/16/18 10:19 am
04/16/18 10:19 am
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Manx Offline OP
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Ok. Not a big job. I`ll try that tonight.

cheers.


1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #732102
04/16/18 9:05 pm
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Wow fellas.... I will sleep very well tonight.

Thank you so much!

[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/7QU4n6GictE[/video]

If I told you that the motor was completely quiet after oiling the timing cogs I'm pretty sure you wouldn't belive me!

If I have to remove the inner timing cover again I'm pretty sure I'll remember to empty the gear box next ...

Hahaha


1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: Manx] #732112
04/16/18 10:27 pm
04/16/18 10:27 pm
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You don't need to drain the 'box, just tilt the motor a few degrees toward the drive side.

Glad that was the issue anyway.


Lamas are bigger than frogs.
No room for sanity here.
Re: Robs engine rebuild help thread [Re: NickL] #732140
04/17/18 4:04 am
04/17/18 4:04 am
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Me too. I was worried that I had done something terribly wrong.


1966 Rickman Metisse (a65)
1960 A10 golden flash
1960 lambretta li150
1942 Ariel W/ng
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