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Actual inverted oil seal photo #725865
02/17/18 12:36 am
02/17/18 12:36 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
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Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
My rider took the double engine Triumph land speed racer to Maine for initial speed runs...I stayed home this time.....The bike ran 142 MPH on 5he initial run with the rider shutting down early ,, He figured more speed on an all out second run...But the bike was plagued by random carb flooding issues so he got off the throttle at about 130 mph and coasted down..he pulled over to get a time slip and notice the oil pressure on the front engine was about 10 at idle and 30 at speed.Both engine we seeing 40 at idle and 80 at speed as warmed up as they get in 1-1/2 miles of full throttle acceleration...At the track he and a friend pulled the side cover, checked oil flow from the tank , swapped OPRV's but saw nothing wrong and the oil pressure remained low .No more racing... The other race bike ran flawlessly ...

I finally got the bike over the my place and checked the sump screens cut open cartridge return filters....no bearing material, no other ugly crap...I pulled the side cover ... The seal blew out...Now it gets interesting, I have in my parts several PW seals...But the seal in the engine is a "SDA"... I turned the crank quill to .609 to clean up damage....015 below standard..I have PW POS2072 seals on the shelf... The ID is .590..I believe the interference fit is supposed to be at least .020...So I also had the SDA seals designed for a .020 undersize....Well the SDA seal failed.... I learned a lesson.....I betting there's no internal engine damage...

The seal blow out is near 4 oclock

[Linked Image]


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
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Re: Actual inverted oil photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #725866
02/17/18 12:48 am
02/17/18 12:48 am
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

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John Healy  Offline

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J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
HB I will send you a couple of Real Pioneer Weston undersize crankshaft oil seals. Also you really need some P-80 to install those rubber seals.


Re: Actual inverted oil photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #725880
02/17/18 4:34 am
02/17/18 4:34 am
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,848
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline

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HawaiianTiger  Offline

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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,848
Maui Hawaii
If I was still doing that conversion, I'd install TWO seals. There's enough room.
You don't really need anything to stop the seal from coming out, either. The crank shoulder would do the trick.
Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Actual inverted oil photo [Re: HawaiianTiger] #725885
02/17/18 5:29 am
02/17/18 5:29 am
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,504
OZ
Triless Online content
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Triless  Online Content
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,504
OZ
Bill, wouldn't there be a chance, then, of the outermost seal turning with the crank and buggering things !

Re: Actual inverted oil photo [Re: NickL] #725902
02/17/18 12:09 pm
02/17/18 12:09 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
John, thanks ! ...I thought the one side of the seal bore is too thin to even machine one MM for a circlip....The seal is proper press fit in the bore..The four cotters seem adequate considering the seals have a metal outer ring...The other engine has the exact same set up with a genuine PW seals because the crank end is standard size..I did this same conversion on a Pre unit I rode for many years with no problems...

When I first started the engine the oil pressure pinned the 100 psi gauges...I went through a pile of OPRV springs and shims until I got the oil pressure to not exceed 80 psi when cold...

I'm quite pleased with the bike build other than this one problem....Besides the clip on bars, and the basic frame, everything was done in my shop with an old lathe and hand held tools. The bike goes runs straight down the track, the Hillbilly primary drive fabricated with a jackshaft supported by a Subaru wheel bearing assembly worked well..And the on board Harley starter makes it so easy...
And keep in mind what pilots used to say....
Quote
two engine doubles the risk of an engine failure...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Actual inverted oil photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #725903
02/17/18 12:26 pm
02/17/18 12:26 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
John, thanks ! .Like Nick L said but the crank does not allow for two seals..I thought the one side of the seal bore is too thin, .065", to machine one MM (.039)for a circlip....The seal is proper press fit in the bore..The four cotters seem adequate considering the seals have a metal outer ring...The other engine has the exact same set up with a genuine PW seals because the crank end is standard size..I did this same conversion on a Pre unit I rode for many years with no problems...

When I first started the engine the oil pressure pinned the 100 psi gauges...I went through a pile of OPRV springs and shims until I got the oil pressure to not exceed 80 psi when cold...

I'm quite pleased with the bike build other than this one problem....Besides the clip on bars, and the basic frame, everything was done in my shop with an old lathe and hand held tools. The bike goes runs straight down the track, the Hillbilly primary drive fabricated with a jackshaft supported by a Subaru wheel bearing assembly worked well..And the on board Harley starter makes it so easy...
[Linked Image]
The Pazon electronic magneto conversions use a Lucas taper fit drive gear...Instead I used cam timing gears machined to fit the center metal hub of a fiber gear and TIG welded the pieces together..
[Linked Image]

Home made oil hose fittings to suit the installation
[Linked Image]
And keep in mind what pilots used to say....
Quote
two engine doubles the risk of an engine failure...



650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Actual inverted oil photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #725905
02/17/18 1:51 pm
02/17/18 1:51 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,923
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline
fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,923
ohio, usa
i thought the mechanic said he looked at the seals at the track.

i seem to remember him saying so.

Last edited by kevin roberts; 02/17/18 1:52 pm.

live every day.
die once.
Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: kevin roberts] #725909
02/17/18 2:21 pm
02/17/18 2:21 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
i thought the mechanic said he looked at the seals at the track.

i seem to remember him saying so.

He told me the same .. He is a trained new car dealership mechanic, 15 years experience , I told him on the phone what to look for and he didn't see it?....They also complained about random carb flooding,that ended the second run early.... did you see him take off the float bowls? When I checked the bowl center drain plugs,all spotless..


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #725920
02/17/18 5:20 pm
02/17/18 5:20 pm
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,923
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline
fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,923
ohio, usa
no, i didnt see him touch it. just talked with him when they were getting ready to load it back up. never saw anything apart.


live every day.
die once.
Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #725950
02/18/18 12:04 am
02/18/18 12:04 am
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
OK. I'll get it fixed up for Arkansas this summer....I have to make a removable top rail on the frame so the rear engine rocker boxes can be removed without pulling the engine.. I made the bike as low as possible, the engine offset to the left slightly... and it does cause maintenance issues...I think the heads need some port reshaping to make the necessary power to be winner...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #725956
02/18/18 12:58 am
02/18/18 12:58 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,923
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline
fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,923
ohio, usa
man, i cant afford arkansas and loring both. wish i could, i have folks in arkansas.


live every day.
die once.
Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: John Healy] #725964
02/18/18 3:19 am
02/18/18 3:19 am
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 606
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
BritBike Forum member
koan58  Offline
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K
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 606
Isle of Wight, UK
John, so undersize seals are available? From messages on the forum, I had got the impression that it was a fraud, and that folks were getting a standard seal in the guise of a special?
I would of course trust your approval, are they specially made?

Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #725970
02/18/18 4:39 am
02/18/18 4:39 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,923
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline
fefsa
kevin roberts  Offline
fefsa
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,923
ohio, usa
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
[Linked Image]



why is your oil green?

are you running brad penn in this motor?

i used brad penn 30W to break in mine, and i'm still using it.

Last edited by kevin roberts; 02/18/18 4:40 am.

live every day.
die once.
Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: kevin roberts] #726012
02/18/18 12:43 pm
02/18/18 12:43 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by kevin roberts
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
[Linked Image]



why is your oil green?

are you running brad penn in this motor?

i used brad penn 30W to break in mine, and i'm still using it.


Valvoline 20/50 VR1 Full synthetic racing oil...It's actually a blue color in the bottle..I also use Brad Penn break in oil.......The Valvoline has high ZDDP and a good dose of moly but not suitable for wet clutches or perhaps bikes sharing engine and trans oil...But the moly reduces friction and maybe gives another 1/2 HP..


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726028
02/18/18 4:31 pm
02/18/18 4:31 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,077
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Offline

Parts Dealer
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,077
Lancaster, California
I wrote a blog post about this a few weeks ago, yall should give it a read:


https://www.classicbritishspares.com/blogs/news/tech-triumph-twins-oil-feed-seal


I stock the good oil seals by Pioneer too:


https://www.classicbritishspares.com/products/triumph-crankshaft-points-seal

Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726042
02/18/18 5:41 pm
02/18/18 5:41 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
CBS, I notice the seals pictured in your links are SDA brand, that the same brand that is shown blown out in my original post....I do realize your link also says you have PW seals... Of course what I'm doing to the engines is far more stressful than street bikes ....


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726045
02/18/18 6:32 pm
02/18/18 6:32 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,848
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline

BritBike Forum member
HawaiianTiger  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,848
Maui Hawaii
The site is currently displaying both seals at this time, as well as an undersized spec'd seal.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: HawaiianTiger] #726049
02/18/18 6:49 pm
02/18/18 6:49 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by HawaiianTiger
The site is currently displaying both seals at this time, as well as an undersized spec'd seal.

Cheers,
Bill

The site mentions Pioneer seals but....I see images of two seals, both are not Pioneer..... I can only speak of the quality of the SDA seal that blew out in a racing situation ...I have bought items from CBS and in no way am I saying he is less than the best.. Just pointing out what I see...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726059
02/18/18 7:31 pm
02/18/18 7:31 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline

BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote
John, so undersize seals are available? From messages on the forum, I had got the impression that it was a fraud, and that folks were getting a standard seal in the guise of a special?
I would of course trust your approval, are they specially made?


Yes, for a long time the standard seal was flogged for both standard and .020" undersize. Recently Velocette had Pioneer Weston make a .020" undersize (70-6387). To make it even more confusing they sell them under the part number 70-4568.

The Pioneer Weston POS2072/MP802 is one of the original seals used by Triumph for this application. Gaco was also a supplier.

The Pioneer Weston # is W10006018R21/29 (.020" undersize seal) it is branded Pioneer Weston. Any UK dealer who trades with David Holder has access to these seals under part number 70-4568.



Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726069
02/18/18 8:53 pm
02/18/18 8:53 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,077
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Offline

Parts Dealer
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,077
Lancaster, California
If you click on the product link...... I clearly indicate which each seal should be used for. There should be no confusion..


Taken from the listing:

70-4568 - Points Seal (Taiwan)
This particular Taiwan seal is rated very low and should only be used for the points seal on a vintage Triumph twin. We do not recommend using the Taiwan seal as the crankshaft seal despite it having the same part number - it could cause low oil pressure.


70-4568 - Crankshaft Seal (USA)
This new USA made seal is the best quality seal to be used as a crankshaft feed seal and also as a points seal. This seal features a metal hosing (just like original) and is rated up to 100+ pounds to withstand oil pressure. This seal happens to be my personal favorite.


70-6387 - Crankshaft Seal (-.020")
If your oil feed spigot on your crank end shows signs of wear (grooving) it is wise to use an undersized seal. The 70-6387 seal features a smaller inner diameter (-.020) to make up the wear on your crankshaft end spigot. To be clear this part is the same as 70-4568 but with a smaller inner diameter.

Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726070
02/18/18 8:55 pm
02/18/18 8:55 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,077
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Offline

Parts Dealer
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,077
Lancaster, California
The "USA" seal is a metal caged seal. As far as I'm concerned that is a pioneer seal. I wrote that blog post because I had the same issue you are having with my TR6. Using the "USA" seal fixed my problem. My PSI is @75 @4K RPM

Re: Actual inverted oil seal photo [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726152
02/19/18 2:30 pm
02/19/18 2:30 pm
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
J
John Healy Offline

BritBike Forum member
John Healy  Offline

BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 10,131
Boston, Massachusetts
Quote
(just like original)


??



Moderated by  John Healy 


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