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Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #725829
02/16/18 6:49 pm
02/16/18 6:49 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
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Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
I just got the bike into my shop after it sat in the trailer mired in a muddy field since July... ..At least I think G loads caused the problem because two hours of flogging on the dyno showed no problems...My rider pulled the cover ,removed and inspected the oil pump, checked the lines, swapped gauges and OPRV's engine to engine and still only 30 psi max on the front engine...So I look into now...

Back to clutch pull.....This is the dual engine bike, 90's Harley clutch,lever and cable.. About 20 pounds pull in...it's not that bad because of a smooth action...


[Linked Image]







650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
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Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726147
02/19/18 2:11 pm
02/19/18 2:11 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,292
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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KC in S.B.  Offline

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Posts: 4,292
Santa Barbara, California
SO,........ Where to find a 7/8" pivot lever set? We're the original clutch levers actually 7/8" pivots ? I have an NOS Dorghty (?) on the brake side, and it is 7/8".
Back to clutch pull....... I'm at the serious decision point about still trying to ride these things. Hands are starting to be a REAL problem! I need a clutch lever with the 7/8" pivot distance. Are there any out there? IMHO, and contrary to some, it does make a quite noticable difference.
Also, on the topic of cable lube, and oil/dirt contamination/wear. An old timer that was always right in the final analysis stopped me from using oil. He told me it was only a temporary "feel better", and mostly gone soon. He recommended powdered graphite, which is a hell of a mess. So, the lock-ease aerosol is the next best solution. Cleaning out the old gunk is the key, but a new cable is best of course. Don't oil a new cable. My .02.......


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726153
02/19/18 2:53 pm
02/19/18 2:53 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 463
Dallas Texas
RPM Offline
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RPM  Offline
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Posts: 463
Dallas Texas
7/8 levers are available and the only thing to use. I get them from Coventry Spares. Anything other than stock Triumph clutch springs are unnecessary. If I work on a bike and it has the red or Barrnett clutch springs installed they go in the trash. I do not ask the customer, I tell him we are replacing them. I have been some what obsessed with levers the past year. Do not ever buy Emgo levers. They are junk and not suitable for any Triumph that we work on. EVER.

Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726157
02/19/18 4:32 pm
02/19/18 4:32 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,292
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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Santa Barbara, California
Thanks for the direction to Conventry, I'll be calling them today! BTW, I did buy a set of EMGOs just to compare them. They look good on the bench.................. It's too bad that often the repo folks don't go the last step when manufacturing something. What added cost could there be?


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: KC in S.B.] #726158
02/19/18 5:07 pm
02/19/18 5:07 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
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Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
The Emgo aluminum replica levers shown in my original post are on several bikes and work dandy and feel good... In fact , in my opinion , they feel way better than any original Triumph steel levers.....


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: KC in S.B.] #726162
02/19/18 5:46 pm
02/19/18 5:46 pm
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,879
Scotland
S
Stuart Offline
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Stuart  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,879
Scotland
Hi KC,

Originally Posted by KC in S.B.
An old timer that was always right in the final analysis
recommended powdered graphite, which is a hell of a mess.

This side of The Pond, I can get graphite in an aerosol easily, several brands so I'd be surprised if you can't get it there (unless your EPA or California have taken against it? facepalm ). Or PTFE in an aerosol? Then just use one of these:-

[Linked Image]

... to get it into the cable. bigt

Hth.

Regards,

Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726218
02/20/18 3:50 am
02/20/18 3:50 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,292
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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Posts: 4,292
Santa Barbara, California
Yep! I have that item, and the Aerosol "lock-ease" is the graphite product here that I used, there are others......
AND !!! Got my lever issue taken care of by the site sponsor CBS today. John passed the info to me when I checked in at Coventry Spares. This board sure is a help!

Last edited by KC in S.B.; 02/20/18 3:53 am.

Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726235
02/20/18 6:27 am
02/20/18 6:27 am
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 401
Pleasant Hill, California USA
T
TR7RVMan Offline
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 401
Pleasant Hill, California USA
Hi KC, After you get the 7/8 lever installed let us know how the effort is.

Do you know what brand cable you are using?
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726248
02/20/18 12:51 pm
02/20/18 12:51 pm
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 463
Dallas Texas
RPM Offline
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RPM  Offline
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Posts: 463
Dallas Texas
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
The Emgo aluminum replica levers shown in my original post are on several bikes and work dandy and feel good... In fact , in my opinion , they feel way better than any original Triumph steel levers.....


Those are the only Emgo levers with the correct 7/8 fulcrum. I do not like levers that you must remove the hand grip or throttle to replace. So I don't use those either. I will sell them but I will not sell the crappy other Emgo levers.

Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: RPM] #726255
02/20/18 1:57 pm
02/20/18 1:57 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
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Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
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Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Originally Posted by RPM
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
The Emgo aluminum replica levers shown in my original post are on several bikes and work dandy and feel good... In fact , in my opinion , they feel way better than any original Triumph steel levers.....


Those are the only Emgo levers with the correct 7/8 fulcrum. I do not like levers that you must remove the hand grip or throttle to replace. So I don't use those either. I will sell them but I will not sell the crappy other Emgo levers.

I'll agree, but I'm not a dealer so fussing around a bit doesn't cost me money...


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726259
02/20/18 2:31 pm
02/20/18 2:31 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,292
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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Posts: 4,292
Santa Barbara, California
I do plan to do a Before and After comparison with the spring scale. My quick check eariler was something like 22 lbs, and thought that was crazy!!
The 1 1/8" EMGOs are likely OK to a younger man, and they look OK even if the pivot bolt is All Thread with no smooth bearing shank at the pivot hole. Th

Last edited by KC in S.B.; 02/21/18 3:06 am.

Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726260
02/20/18 2:34 pm
02/20/18 2:34 pm
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,960
Boston, Massachusetts, USA
kurt fischer Offline

#irideslow
kurt fischer  Offline

#irideslow
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,960
Boston, Massachusetts, USA
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
The Emgo aluminum replica levers shown in my original post are on several bikes and work dandy and feel good... In fact , in my opinion , they feel way better than any original Triumph steel levers.....


Agree.

I use these EMGO 7/8" fulcrum levers on two of my bikes, several thousand miles, no problems. I like the two pinch bolts, no flex in the perch.

[Linked Image]

Last edited by kurt fischer; 02/20/18 7:49 pm.

Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
2005 Ducati MTS 1000S DS - 2012 Ducati Hyper 796 - 2014 Kawasaki ZX1000
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726277
02/20/18 7:15 pm
02/20/18 7:15 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,077
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

Parts Dealer
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Parts Dealer
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,077
Lancaster, California

Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726281
02/20/18 7:57 pm
02/20/18 7:57 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,077
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

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Posts: 1,077
Lancaster, California

Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726580
02/23/18 7:31 pm
02/23/18 7:31 pm
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 401
Pleasant Hill, California USA
T
TR7RVMan Offline
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T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 401
Pleasant Hill, California USA
Hi All, Borrowed a fish scale. I get 7# to pull lever to grip. 4-5# will hold it, but I don't know why. Maybe friction in cable etc. ??

Not so easy to measure with grip in way. I used wire as I had no string handy. I wrapped tissue around grip to reduce friction on wire.

I still can't post photos here.

Hillbilly, If you PM me your email I can send photos to you. You can post for me? Thank you!
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726581
02/23/18 7:40 pm
02/23/18 7:40 pm
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 401
Pleasant Hill, California USA
T
TR7RVMan Offline
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T
Joined: Jan 2017
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Pleasant Hill, California USA
Regarding 750 springs they are dramatically stronger & make lever pull much harder. Way harder. That is with the exact same lever & cable. All well lubed.

I tried 650 springs on my Tiger 750 but was getting some minor slip at times. More noticeable riding 2 up. But it proved 650 would cure problems of effort.

I then felt more comfortable with spending $ on Hyde 7 plate + 1 kit. Was very much worth it. That allowed 650 springs to be set flush with screwdriver groove instead of dome head on adjuster nuts. To adjust wobble I went in on one & out on one.

Works good & doesn't slip. As a reminder this is on primary breather motor using Mobil1 v-twin 20-50 oil.

One would think the extra plates would be harder to free, but it frees much better cold. However, but original 6 plate freed no problems, but would try to turn motor over some.

I found once nuts are near the final adjustment even 1 or 2 revolutions in or out can be felt at the lever.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726754
02/25/18 12:03 pm
02/25/18 12:03 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Hillbilly bike  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,642
Running from demons in WNY
TR7RVMan asked me to post these photos of the clutch pull effort on his bike


[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


650 Triumph modified production LSR record holder 133.1 MPH... Twin 650 engine Triumph LSR that goes sorta fast...
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726876
02/26/18 6:03 pm
02/26/18 6:03 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,292
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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KC in S.B.  Offline

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Posts: 4,292
Santa Barbara, California
Ok, This subject has become very important to me, ................. so the above 6 pound pull is something I would pay serious money for at this point.
Here's the results of my testing, just for the record:
Stated with an EMGO Steel repop 1 1/8" pivot centers lever, 2nd tested with a new Harris 7/8" centers, sourced from CBS sponsor here.
The cable is a new, SuperLight Venxxxx? cable, installed without any extra lube. Lever pivots still dry also. Not positive where the cover adjuster nuts are, but no changes between tests, the Only change was the 7/8" pivot centers. Started with 211/2 lbs pull, and ended with 17 1/2 lb pull. That isn't HUGE, but considering +/- 4 lb difference, worth it to me. Also does prove the pivot distance does make a difference for anyone not tuned in to that issue.

Attached Files IMG_1922_800x600.JPGIMG_1918_800x600.JPG21.5 lbs.JPGIMG_1926_800x600.JPGIMG_1924_800x600.JPG
Last edited by KC in S.B.; 02/26/18 6:05 pm.

Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #726893
02/26/18 7:40 pm
02/26/18 7:40 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,077
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

Parts Dealer
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Posts: 1,077
Lancaster, California
K.C., are you using the same MAP outer clutch pressure plate like in the BSA?

Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #727024
02/28/18 3:30 am
02/28/18 3:30 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,292
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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KC in S.B.  Offline

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Posts: 4,292
Santa Barbara, California
No, just the OEM tin hat. somehow those make a difference, but I'm fuzzy on why that is. Next time apart, I'll spend some money on a Hyde and other special bits!
Looking at possible hand surgery if this last cortisone injection doesn't "take". Hope it does as it has worked on the the other hand.


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #727032
02/28/18 7:26 am
02/28/18 7:26 am
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 401
Pleasant Hill, California USA
T
TR7RVMan Offline
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T
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 401
Pleasant Hill, California USA
Hi KC, I would not mess around. Every time you pull the lever you are risking/causing more damage to hand.

I'm not sure, but clutch mod might be cheaper than co pay on surgery? I'm positive it makes bike much nicer to ride. But, most important to protect your hand.

Get Hyde 7+1 kit. About $150 with shipping. Get JRC 650 springs from Rabers or whoever, but get those exact springs.

Keep the original tin pressure plate. They work good with Hyde kit.

I am not a fan of Venhill cable. Use it as a spare as I did. They warrantied the bad one, but I've switched to Barnett. Had very good long term service with Barnett. Other people's Barnett worked similar good long term.

Get Barnett cable. Order it when you order springs. Lube cable with Mobil1 v-twin 20/50 by hanging with baggie full of oil until it runs out bottom. Like in shop manual photo.

Bevel ends of springs slightly so they don't grab nuts so tight. This makes adjustment or removal much easier. I have photos of this.

Adjust springs with nuts flush with bottom of grooves, not dome of nuts. Then go tight with 1 , loose with 1 to true wobble. This allows easy pull, yet no slip.

Lube lever pivot, cable pivot with the Mobil1 also. You got the good pivot screw, that is good.

Trust me, If you do all this it will be like mine. It really will. I've seen this result on 5 clutches now. I am very confident in it.

Other methods may work, but this is a known by me. There is no guess work.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #727084
02/28/18 4:47 pm
02/28/18 4:47 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,292
Santa Barbara, California
KC in S.B. Offline

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Posts: 4,292
Santa Barbara, California
Thank You Don! I have made a list of your parts items, and will get ordering them to have all here for the change out. I have JRC access, but curious about the Hyde parts. Do you have a supplier in the states or go direct to UK? This will be a great example of before & after !! Regards, KC


Down to 1 BSA, 2 Triumphs, 1 '56 Chevy
Oops,.. add 1 Sporty
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #727092
02/28/18 6:08 pm
02/28/18 6:08 pm
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 401
Pleasant Hill, California USA
T
TR7RVMan Offline
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 401
Pleasant Hill, California USA
Hi KC, I ordered direct from Hyde UK. Put on visa. There is shipped & exchange rate fee. I called visa to inform them of international purchase. Sometimes they block transaction otherwise. For me the whole transaction went smoothly.

At that time no US dealers sold them. They are not sold on eBay so far as I can tell.

Arrived in about 2 weeks.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #727265
03/02/18 7:41 am
03/02/18 7:41 am
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 772
Skudeneshavn Norway
S
Stein Roger Online content

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Stein Roger  Online Content

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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 772
Skudeneshavn Norway
I have used the Hyde kit with good results, but also the "Pete R" conversion with good results. The standard clutch has 11 friction faces as the innermost one doesn't do anything. Hyde's Conversion thus has 13 faces, same as Pete's, but his got one cork lining which he claimed gave more than twice the friction. How about combining the two for a 15 face clutch and try extremely light springs?
Heavy clutches aren't what ageing joints need.

Pete R clutch mod

Re: Clutch pull effort [Re: Hillbilly bike] #727278
03/02/18 11:24 am
03/02/18 11:24 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,870
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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argyll. scotland, uk
"How about combining the two for a 15 face clutch and try extremely light springs?
Heavy clutches aren't what ageing joints need."

i have just been measuring this up, just got a 7 plate Aerco kit, it comes with one plain steel , frictions are 0.110" .
long story short the 7 plate stack is 0.055 " thinner than my old 6 plate which has 0.150- 0.155"" thick frictions,
like this I have travel ~ 0.150" from top of last friction to edge of basket


if I cork line the back with 0.040 " cork, I can lose another 0.070 " by removing a 0.110 friction plate.
bringing stack height to 0.125" thinner, a whole 1/8". Or cork line the back and fit an extra plain plate for a 7.5 plate . this comes out at 0.060" thicker than the 6 plate, I dont have enough room to go thicker , but it might work for others. if i bought six new plain plates at 0.075", to replace the 0.080" in already I could lose another 30 thou making a 7.5 plate stack only 30 thou thicker than a 6 plate.

Thinking about it a bit more , clutch stack height relates to spring preload, or how much bite, A 26tpi screw move about 38.5 thou for one whole turn, at ~100 lb/inch for 650 springs , one screw turn = 3.85lbs additional pressure, so at 70 thou less stack height, two whole turns are needed for the same bite, or lose 6x 3.85= 23 lbs of initial bite.

Last edited by gavin eisler; 03/02/18 4:17 pm.

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