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Re: Torque Wrench settings [Re: NickL] #725547
02/14/18 11:30 am
02/14/18 11:30 am
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 727
Naarfuk, UK
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Tigernuts Offline
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Naarfuk, UK
Originally Posted by NickL
Racing a pre-unit Morgo and ARE back in the early 70's we found that putting a flat on the exhaust rocker shaft cured the cam wear problem.
Some blokes used to have a spiral cut in to the shaft, an oil stone and some hand graft was good enough for us.
We were using a 4220 as an exhaust cam with thruxton followers. That cam was an older type non nitrided.


Sorry if I'm being dim, but how does making a flat on the rocker shaft help? Is it a case of the friction between the rocker and the shaft being sufficiently great to cause the cams & followers to wear badly? If so, I'm surprised to say the least


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Re: Torque Wrench settings [Re: Maddoman] #725549
02/14/18 12:13 pm
02/14/18 12:13 pm
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,980
Asheville, NC
Mike Baker Offline
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Asheville, NC
Just a little of my experience regarding oil pressure and losses through tappet oiler... Put a motor together a while ago, had the crank turned, proper bearing shells, new feed seal. No matter what speed the motor ran, I didn't see more than 20 lbs pressure. Changed seals, gauge, OPRV, tried to eliminate anything easy. I finally just got disgusted and rode the thing. Hard. Didn't care if it broke. Long story short, it ran great for a couple years. I finally diagnosed the problem as being a short nose on the feed end of the crank. Some DPO had bashed it to free it from its bearing and had it remachined but it was about 5/16" shorter than standard and it would not fully engage with the seal in the timing cover. I put a different crank in it and had full oil pressure. Now the surprising part - there was no noticeable wear on the crank journals from the period of running with low oil pressure. The bearings were fine. Everything measured OK. So I guess I took away from this that with clean oil, these motors don't necessarily need 70 lbs of pressure and I don't worry about starving mains and don't block off tappet oil feeds anymore.
2 cents

Re: Torque Wrench settings [Re: Tigernuts] #725551
02/14/18 12:58 pm
02/14/18 12:58 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,938
Running from demons in WNY
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Originally Posted by Tigernuts
Originally Posted by NickL
Racing a pre-unit Morgo and ARE back in the early 70's we found that putting a flat on the exhaust rocker shaft cured the cam wear problem.
Some blokes used to have a spiral cut in to the shaft, an oil stone and some hand graft was good enough for us.
We were using a 4220 as an exhaust cam with thruxton followers. That cam was an older type non nitrided.


Sorry if I'm being dim, but how does making a flat on the rocker shaft help? Is it a case of the friction between the rocker and the shaft being sufficiently great to cause the cams & followers to wear badly? If so, I'm surprised to say the least

Probably more oil from the rockers drained down the push rod tube and onto the tappets.......

Interesting story from Mike on the low oil pressure.....................It's also been proven that the story of excessive rod side clearance can cause low oil pressure or over oiling the cylinders....Not true if the bearing diametrical clearance is correct...


I ride dinosaurs....
Re: Torque Wrench settings [Re: Mike Baker] #725560
02/14/18 2:48 pm
02/14/18 2:48 pm
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 848
Skudeneshavn Norway
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Stein Roger Online content

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Originally Posted by Mike Baker
Now the surprising part - there was no noticeable wear on the crank journals from the period of running with low oil pressure. The bearings were fine. Everything measured OK. So I guess I took away from this that with clean oil, these motors don't necessarily need 70 lbs of pressure and I don't worry about starving mains and don't block off tappet oil feeds anymore.
2 cents


I had two p/u timing covers converted from bush to garter seal, but changed my mind and converted them back to bushings for this exact reason. As long as the feed is adequate the crank will suck in oil and deliver it to the big ends at a much higher pressure than any gauge will ever show us. With a little math it's easy to calculate this, but it's pretty obvious when you think about it. The centripetal forces are tremendous even at low speeds.
End feed is elegant isn't it?

Re: Torque Wrench settings [Re: Stein Roger] #725589
02/14/18 5:44 pm
02/14/18 5:44 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,938
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Originally Posted by Stein Roger
Originally Posted by Mike Baker
Now the surprising part - there was no noticeable wear on the crank journals from the period of running with low oil pressure. The bearings were fine. Everything measured OK. So I guess I took away from this that with clean oil, these motors don't necessarily need 70 lbs of pressure and I don't worry about starving mains and don't block off tappet oil feeds anymore.
2 cents


I had two p/u timing covers converted from bush to garter seal, but changed my mind and converted them back to bushings for this exact reason. As long as the feed is adequate the crank will suck in oil and deliver it to the big ends at a much higher pressure than any gauge will ever show us. With a little math it's easy to calculate this, but it's pretty obvious when you think about it. The centripetal forces are tremendous even at low speeds.
End feed is elegant isn't it?

I can't say I completely agree....Automotive crankshaft oil is fed into the main bearings and then through drilled passages to the connecting rod journals...Centripetal forces are at work but low oil pressure at high speed/high load will cause often cause a spun bearing and if it seizes,a thrown rod...Of course a Triumph two throw crank is different so perhaps you are correct
My double engine Triumph has the side covers converted to garter seal.......At the track on the second run my rider, ever alert for problems, noticed 30 psi oil pressure on the front engine instead of 80 psi ( my LSR bikes have oil pressure guages, most others don't)...He immediately pulled in the clutch and shut it down...Bike was started afterwards and made no unusual noises but the pressure was near zero at idle,and 30 psi at high RPM's...The pump and seal looked good...I'll be tearing into the problem soon, be interesting to find what goes on..


I ride dinosaurs....
Re: Torque Wrench settings [Re: Maddoman] #725597
02/14/18 6:30 pm
02/14/18 6:30 pm
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 5,996
Maui Hawaii
HawaiianTiger Offline
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Posts: 5,996
Maui Hawaii
Stein,
I used to machine and install garter seals on my motors myself. I had one blow a seal and I sat down to think about it for a while.

Unless the main bearings are really shot, the crank will never contact the bushing in the timing cover. It is a NON wearing item. You should never see one with wear on it.

Soooo, the oil pressure is directly related to the fit of the bushing on the nose of the crank. Now, it's very unlikely that you could get a perfect fit on that bushing and still have the cover fit on. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really seem to matter much as Mike has found out.

Not to say that it can't. I've seen at least two motors burn up because of an inverted seal at the crank. It can take a while for this to happen. If you only ride short hops, you may never see it. I suspect that a too fast circulation of oil is the contributing factor. On a longer ride, the oil never gets a chance to cool off in the tank. When the oil gets too hot, the pressure falls to a dangerous level.

Cheers,
Bill


Bikes
1974 Commando
1985 Honda Nighthawk 650
1957 Thunderbird/T110 "Flying Tiger"
Antique Fans: Loads of Emersons (Two six wingers) plus gyros and orbiters.
Re: Torque Wrench settings [Re: Maddoman] #725631
02/14/18 10:30 pm
02/14/18 10:30 pm
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 487
Pleasant Hill, California USA
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TR7RVMan Offline
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Hi All, Cam wear is an interesting issue. Working on cars my entire career I've seen a lot. The first Toyota 20R motor had bad cam wear. Many Mercedes had bad cam wear. I'm talking 3/16" worn off lobe in 60k miles. Rockers may or may show wear, many did. This was through the 70s to mid 80s & even the early 90s on some motors.

All these motors had direct oil feed from cam lobe base circle drilling, or direct spray from oiler tube. The volume of oil was very high in every case. A solid stream.

The cure in each case was replacing cam & rockers (all these are OHC motors with rocker running directly on cam). The new cams were "chill hardened" & stellite follower faces.

However... Oil indeed played a huge role. We found Castrol GTX 20-50 & Chevron Delo were the worst for cam wear. Quaker State & Pennzoil were best.

No idea what the zinc level was back then.

I ran Castrol GTX 20-50 in my Tiger 750. Resealing tappet blocks at 12416mi. Cam & tappets looked good. I changed oil every 1k miles.

I now run high zinc oil Mobil1 v-twin 20-50. I'll let you know how it worked for cam next time I have cly. off. Hopefully not soon.

Regarding rod bearing clearance & rod side clearance. Running to spec is a better practice. Too small rod clearance will restrict oil flow volume & not allow oil to cool journal properly for low flow. Same with running side clearance too small.

Some car motors actually only feed rods every 1/2 turn of crank. Depends on if main bearing or crank is grooved for full feed. We used to groove Chevy cranks, add .0005-001 clearance, Then install high volume oil pump to keep volume/pressure high. The thought was to keep bearings cooler at very high RPM. Seemed to work well. We won a lot of races. Always used Valvoline in the speed shop.

Now days I only build for maximum motor life & trouble free operation on poor California fuel.

So having oil feed to cam was important to me. Makes me feel better even if it doesn't help.

Who knows why Triumph stopped doing cam oiling? Maybe just to save cost? I tend to doubt it was to extend service life. Not that anybody suggested it was.
Don


1973 Tiger 750
Re: Torque Wrench settings [Re: Maddoman] #725679
02/15/18 10:44 am
02/15/18 10:44 am
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 727
Naarfuk, UK
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Tigernuts Offline
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Naarfuk, UK
Just an observation: I've noticed on quite a few T140 / TR7 exhaust cams that there are wear marks that correspond with the oil hole in the tappets, as if the existence of those small holes is enough to provoke wear to start? I;m not talking about serious wear, just enough to see with normal eyesight - light scoring over the centres of the lobes. I've also noticed on a lot of exhaust tappets that the Stellite feet are wearing in the area of the oil hole - again, as if its very existence is enough to make the hole's edges prone to microscopic breaking-out.

If there's anything in this, maybe Meriden decided the oilway was causing more harm than good, and that's why they scrapped it?


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Re: Torque Wrench settings [Re: NickL] #725687
02/15/18 12:24 pm
02/15/18 12:24 pm
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,938
Running from demons in WNY
Hillbilly bike Offline
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Originally Posted by NickL



That was exactly the reason, more oil = no cam wear, that's all the complicated oil drilling did on the unit motors. As simpletons we just picked an easy way of doing it.

Yes, simple is often better....Of course on this forum, the simple often becomes a discussion of extreme complexity.... grin


I ride dinosaurs....
Re: Torque Wrench settings [Re: Hillbilly bike] #725733
02/15/18 9:01 pm
02/15/18 9:01 pm
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 727
Naarfuk, UK
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Tigernuts Offline
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Naarfuk, UK
Originally Posted by Hillbilly bike
Yes, simple is often better....Of course on this forum, the simple often becomes a discussion of extreme complexity.... grin


Do you know of a Triumph forum that doesn't? Please tell!


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Re: Torque Wrench settings [Re: Maddoman] #725780
02/16/18 7:24 am
02/16/18 7:24 am
Joined: Jan 2017
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Pleasant Hill, California USA
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TR7RVMan Offline
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Pleasant Hill, California USA
Hi Tigernuts, Regarding T140 cam, tappet wear, that's interesting.

I've not seen enough T140 to know. Regarding T120 with oil feed tappets I've not really seen enough to know either. What have you observed on T120?

Wouldn't it be funny if indeed they wear less. All the extra lube was a mistake??

Regarding early cams I've seen many that are very worn. I have one in my junk box as we speak.

Indeed how the simple can become complicated! I know this may be a frivolous conversation to many, but I truly find it very interesting. Triumph certainly struggled with this "simple" subject. The factory installed grooved rocker shaft staring '73 twins. How did that effect cam wear?
Don


1973 Tiger 750
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