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Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #719156
12/17/17 9:31 pm
12/17/17 9:31 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 95
Texas, USA
R
Ray Elliott Offline OP
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Ray Elliott  Offline OP
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Texas, USA
I have assembled pictures on Google of the crankcase recess, thrust washer, shims, crank, bushing, pinion, some before & after disassembly.

Anyone wanting me to share them please PM with an email address & I'll share them. All in all it's rather simple. Another of those "why didn't they do this earlier?" issues.

Before I assemble again I'm going to turn a spacer the width of the pinion. Not having to install, remove the pinion a few times will making shimming a quick, simple job.


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
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Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #719158
12/17/17 9:38 pm
12/17/17 9:38 pm
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Posts: 95
Texas, USA
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Ray Elliott Offline OP
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Texas, USA
Or just click this link. Login with any Google account & request a share. I'll approve right away.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1bOUpStLgNLkD1AFkDuF89NuM6zjBR68l?usp=sharing


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #719166
12/17/17 10:28 pm
12/17/17 10:28 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,008
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Sent a request Ray.


beerchug
Re: My A70 [Re: Steve Wilson] #719225
12/18/17 1:20 pm
12/18/17 1:20 pm
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Steve Wilson Offline

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OK - Think I found it and ordered one. Should be a late christmas present :-)


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Steve Wilson] #719232
12/18/17 1:45 pm
12/18/17 1:45 pm
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 95
Texas, USA
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Ray Elliott Offline OP
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Pinion, thrust washer or both? I'd like a spare thrust washer should you find a stock!

Originally Posted by Steve Wilson
OK - Think I found it and ordered one. Should be a late christmas present :-)



Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #719310
12/18/17 11:22 pm
12/18/17 11:22 pm
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Steve Wilson Offline

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Just the Pinion. I'm having a thrust washer made - could get a price for another but I think it was about 50 quid to make harden and grind.


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #719313
12/18/17 11:31 pm
12/18/17 11:31 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,008
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Thanks for the viewing of the photos, the shims look interesting, as though they are bigger than the OD of the shaft and also smaller than the ID of the bush, so I’m assuming these self centre? Or is it an optical illusion?


beerchug
Re: My A70 [Re: Allan Gill] #719325
12/19/17 1:21 am
12/19/17 1:21 am
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 95
Texas, USA
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Ray Elliott Offline OP
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Texas, USA
Allan, you're right, it's not an optical illusion. The shim ID is about 20.5mm, larger than the washer ID. The OD 36.5mm so smaller than the the diameter of the crankshaft bush journal. I assume that the shims turn with the crank as the inside of the washer shines brightly in the shape of the shim. The inner of the washer has a ground finish where the outside has machining marks. If accidentally reversed the shims would likely disappear quickly.

Originally Posted by Allan Gill
Thanks for the viewing of the photos, the shims look interesting, as though they are bigger than the OD of the shaft and also smaller than the ID of the bush, so I’m assuming these self centre? Or is it an optical illusion?


Ray Elliott
---
A65, A70, A75, T120, T140, T150, T160
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #723725
01/30/18 9:44 am
01/30/18 9:44 am
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Steve Wilson Offline

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That looks like about the same size as Classic Mini balljoint shims

Last edited by Steve Wilson; 01/30/18 9:45 am. Reason: Spelling mistake

SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: ferretjuggler] #723812
01/31/18 3:43 am
01/31/18 3:43 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,553
Owego, NY, USA
Mark Z Offline
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Originally Posted by ferretjuggler
The roller appeared shortly after BSA started to tune up these engines.
Were the ball races failing early, or was it just a precaution ?


Just one man's half-educated opinion: I think much of the engine development at that time was largely driven by the competition market. In the States, the predominance of competition for A65s centered around flattrack racing, where you would take an A65, stroke it to 750cc, install a racing cam and hardened or aftermarket crank, port and polish the head, install high-comp pistons and 32mm carbs, etc. etc. and then take it out on the track and beat the bejesus out of it.

Like Alan, I'm of the opinion that the DS ball bearing main is adequate for "normal road use".






Mark Z

'65(lower)/'66(upper, wheels, front end, controls)/'67(seat, exhaust, fuel tank, headlamp)/'70(frame) A65 Bitsa.
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725544
02/14/18 10:44 am
02/14/18 10:44 am
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 87
UK - Bucks
Steve Wilson Offline

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Ray. Do you have any idea what the thrust washer is made of? I'm wondering if it is Hardened or if a plain steel would do the job. If it didn't need hardening and subsequent grinding flat it would be a lot cheaper to make
Cheers
Steve


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Steve Wilson] #725545
02/14/18 10:45 am
02/14/18 10:45 am
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Steve Wilson Offline

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Unfortunately I've checked and Mini Balljoint shims are just too big - about 38mm OD


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725546
02/14/18 10:47 am
02/14/18 10:47 am
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Steve Wilson Offline

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Crank and Crankcases are back with the machinist for the A70 conversion mods. Likely to be a couple of weeks before he can get onto it but looking forward to the results.


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725554
02/14/18 1:28 pm
02/14/18 1:28 pm
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 87
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Steve Wilson Offline

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[Linked Image]
Trial post - The BSA before open heart surgery!

Last edited by Steve Wilson; 02/14/18 1:30 pm.

SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725646
02/15/18 12:48 am
02/15/18 12:48 am
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,025
Aus
N
NickL Online content
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Looks nice although that front tyre looks a little wide?

The thrust washer can be just steel, i used a large stainless washer which was bored out to suit, it was 3mm thick.
I ran it over an oil stone for a while and it's good.
As for shims, buy some stock and make them, or buy a shim kit from an engineers suppliers they are not mystical items.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: My A70 [Re: NickL] #725696
02/15/18 3:02 pm
02/15/18 3:02 pm
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Steve Wilson Offline

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Well the front tyre is stock size I think - probably just the photo perspective. If I can get away with a non hardened washer that's good - will be cheaper (Or I can make it myself) shims not sure about making them neatly Just bought some online at huge expense! (£6 for a thin washer!!)
Cheers
Steve


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725712
02/15/18 5:20 pm
02/15/18 5:20 pm
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,849
ca, us
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DMadigan Offline
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You can probably find a needle thrust race the right size. Already hardened and ground.

Re: My A70 [Re: DMadigan] #725742
02/15/18 10:15 pm
02/15/18 10:15 pm
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NickL Online content
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Originally Posted by DMadigan
You can probably find a needle thrust race the right size. Already hardened and ground.


Not do-able in this case, They all came with very large ID's. Plus it's only the thrust washer that's needed, the radial race would be too thick with it's associated thrust washers.



To make a neat circular shim up to about 5 thou i just use a couple of washers to clamp the stock and cut the ID with a small Stanley knife.
The OD can be trimmed up with either tin snips or scissors. Time and patience is all that's needed. They are not visible items so some leeway is allowed.


No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725811
02/16/18 3:47 pm
02/16/18 3:47 pm
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DMadigan Offline
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Torrington has just thrust washers. What dimensions are needed? From above, I.D. > 20.5mm, O.D. < 36.5mm. The TR(A/B/C/D)-1423 are 22.22mm I.D., 36.5mm O.D., A: 0.031", B:0.062", C:0.093", D:0.125" thick.

Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725868
02/17/18 12:57 am
02/17/18 12:57 am
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NickL Online content
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The shimming would be between say 5-20 thou.



No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725884
02/17/18 5:16 am
02/17/18 5:16 am
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DMadigan Offline
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There is also valve seat shims, come in 0.005" increments from 0.010". I am not familiar with the setup so advice might be wildly off the mark.

Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725887
02/17/18 6:14 am
02/17/18 6:14 am
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NickL Online content
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The shims go between the thrust washer and the crank to set the end float approx ID 20mm OD 35mm

See the drawing on the first page.

This mob have something suitable by the look of it.
http://www.depcom.sg/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_1191_130_131_886_897

Last edited by NickL; 02/17/18 6:18 am.

No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition................
Bring in the 'Comfy Chair'
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725924
02/17/18 6:49 pm
02/17/18 6:49 pm
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DMadigan Offline
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The whole arrangement looks a bit out of wack. I would not put the shims between the thrust washer and crank because the thrust washer should take the thrust, not the shim. The A65 arrangement has the shims clamped between the crank and inner roller race. I would put the shim between the pinion gear and thrust washer or thrust washer and crank as appropriate.
Then, I would make two half bushes with flange thrust faces inserted from each side with an appropriate gap in between to feed the oil into the bushes and crank. The current arrangement has the shim wearing against the edge of the timing bush and a plain steel shim will wear quicker. A thin shim is more prone to tearing than a thrust washer.

Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725938
02/17/18 10:41 pm
02/17/18 10:41 pm
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Steve Wilson Offline

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OK There seems to be some misunderstanding of what's going on here.
Talking specifically about the A70 arrangement. The shim(s) are trapped between the thrust washer and crank and do not touch the timing side bush.
Crank, shims and thrust washer all revolve together. The shims just adjust the gap/float available across the timing side bush
Did that make sense?
The shims NickL is showing are very similar to the ones I have purchased. In my case I am aiming to make the crank 0.25mm shorter than the Bush and use a 0.3mm shim to give 0.05mm float
I've drawn the stuff up in 3D cad When I have reassembled the engine and proved it works I can publish the 'recipe' for others to follow as they see fit.
Cheers
Steve


SJW
Re: My A70 [Re: Ray Elliott] #725940
02/17/18 10:50 pm
02/17/18 10:50 pm
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DMadigan Offline
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Yes, except it appears that there is no thrust face on the outside other than the end of the steel backed bronze bush, correct?

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