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UK registration of a classic with a modified frame #725397
02/13/18 3:11 am
02/13/18 3:11 am
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 149
England
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ferretjuggler Offline OP
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I realise that I'm probably on the wrong forums with this one.
Nevertheless the bike is a unit Triumph twin and is therefore worthy I think.

I have a mid sixties manufactured 650 unit twin.
The frame has been raked at the headstock for longer forks.
At the rear, a bolt on hard tail assembly replaces the original rear section.
The lugs which originally located the swinging arm have been ground off.

So can this bike still be registered on an age related plate as would be possible with an unmodified bike ?

I'm not sure about the rules on chassis modification for motorcycles.

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Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: ferretjuggler] #725413
02/13/18 9:03 am
02/13/18 9:03 am
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Posts: 9,806
Scotland
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Stuart Online content
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Hi,

I suspect the people who can say for sure are whomever of either the TOMCC Machine Registrar or the guy in the VMCC Library who does Triumph dating requests, reason being it'll be one of them you'll approach for the "extract of the manufacturer's record" now required with the V55 by the DVLA?

Hth.

Regards,

Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: ferretjuggler] #725427
02/13/18 1:24 pm
02/13/18 1:24 pm
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Elburn, Ill. USA
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Irish Swede Offline
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It's not a "classic" anymore now that it's been "chopped."

It may even be unsafe.

Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: ferretjuggler] #725450
02/13/18 5:14 pm
02/13/18 5:14 pm
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Posts: 90
manchester england
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wilksville Offline

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Ferret, don't see why not, does the frame have numbers ?

Regards Peter


'74 T140V,'83 XR1000, C&J FLATTRACKER T140,
Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: ferretjuggler] #725454
02/13/18 5:55 pm
02/13/18 5:55 pm
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Posts: 1,587
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The dating guys are interested in the original numbers.
Normally you would take a photo of the number and also a rubbing

They will work from photos, so (just saying...) a picture of a swing arm bike of the correct vintage (less reg plate) and a close up of the frame/engine number might get you the letter that you need.

Technically because the frame is raked, and the swing arm mount is missing, the frame is modified.

Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: ferretjuggler] #725459
02/13/18 6:33 pm
02/13/18 6:33 pm
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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I would say not, it’s one of the reasons my racer isn’t making any progress at the moment, need a frame with a v5c before I make adjustments to it. So either find another frame with v5c (preferred) or make this into a complete stock spitfire and take it apart again .... nahh


beerchug
Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: AngloBike] #725467
02/13/18 8:08 pm
02/13/18 8:08 pm
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Posts: 149
England
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ferretjuggler Offline OP
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Originally Posted by AngloBike
The dating guys are interested in the original numbers.
Normally you would take a photo of the number and also a rubbing

They will work from photos, so (just saying...) a picture of a swing arm bike of the correct vintage (less reg plate) and a close up of the frame/engine number might get you the letter that you need.

Technically because the frame is raked, and the swing arm mount is missing, the frame is modified.


Thanks for the input.
I've no doubt that the above trick wouldt procure the required dating letter, but it is AFAIK, actually fraudulent.

Let us just consider the scenario if I were to buy a classic 1960's Bonneville, complete with V5 etc, and then turn it into a chopper.
Headstock raked, bolt on hard tail, swinging arm lugs cut off.
This action probably wouldn't exactly make me flavour of the month with the TOMCC, but please realise that I'm only theoretically pondering here.
Now would I still be entited to the registration number and the Historic Vehicle tax status ?

I'm probably asking in the wrong place TBH.
Like I said, I don't know the rules for motorcycles.
I know the rules for 4x4s
Major changes like new wheelbase length or from leaf springs to coils mean a new registration and usually a Q plate.

Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: ferretjuggler] #725470
02/13/18 8:30 pm
02/13/18 8:30 pm
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Permanent frame modifications (rake/ welded hardtail and possibly removal of swing arm mount) count as frame modifications and you'd need to go through a different process
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/rebuilt-vehicles

That is why many people use bolt on swing arms and don't mess with the rest unless they already have the documentation sorted

Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: ferretjuggler] #725501
02/13/18 10:57 pm
02/13/18 10:57 pm
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England
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ferretjuggler Offline OP
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Thanks for that.
I've only been looking at that for about 20 minutes and my head is starting spin already.
I do appreciate that there are people running around with registrations they are not entitled to on modified bikes.
All well and good until you have a serious accident and find out your insurance policy is void.

So it looks like a Q plate after all .

Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: ferretjuggler] #725511
02/14/18 12:17 am
02/14/18 12:17 am
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manchester england
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wilksville Offline

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I don't see the connection between the insurance aspect and getting an age related plate. Try ringing DVLA with the frame number ? you never know it might be on the database. Insurance companies always ask about modifications so to ride a chop or a bobber or whatever you still need spill the beans to be above board.
In fact if any UK members can recommend an insurance co that will insure "customs" or Q plates i'd be grateful for their experience.
Regards Pete


'74 T140V,'83 XR1000, C&J FLATTRACKER T140,
Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: ferretjuggler] #726091
02/18/18 11:32 pm
02/18/18 11:32 pm
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flowboy Offline
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I've certainly come across bikes I would describe as modified (70's yam 4 in 50's BSA frame territory etc) with "classic" registrations. I can only think they bought an already classic reg frame / chassis then modified & maybe (or not) told the insurance co about the mods to fit a non-standard motor in it. These would be bikes modified over 20-25 years ago so maybe there was less interest re. mods from ins. co's in olden times - once you got some insurance & renewed it every year then no-one asked any questions as long as they got your money. Also helps not to draw attention to yourself by crashing the thing.
It's a pity we have such a down on Q plates compared to original ones, in the end they're just a number. I'm always more interested in a bike than it's reg. Bikers in in Germany don't care - AFAIK there's no such thing as a classic plate over there. If I wanted to put my race bike on the road it'd have to have a Q plate as the frame is a modern rep. despite everything else on the thing being '50's.


na
Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: ferretjuggler] #726128
02/19/18 5:15 am
02/19/18 5:15 am
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Posts: 149
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ferretjuggler Offline OP
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Well I've got the information that I wanted from the OP
Yes there are ways that I could fiddle my way to an age related plate and no doubt VHI status too.
Fraudulent though.
I simply wouldn't consider doing it, not because I'm the most scrupulously honest person, but because I've actually managed to scrape together a small amount of wealth and property during my life.
Therefore it's not a clever idea to be charging about on a motorcycle of questionable legality and insurance.
Remember that nothing ever matters until you have an accident.

Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: ferretjuggler] #726537
02/23/18 1:19 pm
02/23/18 1:19 pm
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Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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You could always buy a registration then assign it to your Q plate motorcycle.


beerchug
Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: Allan Gill] #726538
02/23/18 1:23 pm
02/23/18 1:23 pm
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Posts: 7,388
scotland
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Originally Posted by Allan Gill
You could always buy a registration then assign it to your Q plate motorcycle.


I don't think you can.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: ferretjuggler] #726573
02/23/18 6:33 pm
02/23/18 6:33 pm
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https://www.theprivateplateco.co.uk...y-vehicle-has-a-q-plate-can-i-change-it/

Maybe worth ringing dvla and asking what you'd need to get an age related as opposed to a Q?
It might be worth fitting as many original (type) parts as I understand that there is an understanding that a given percentage of the bike needs to be original
So fit a genuine/ repro tank rather than a coffin tank and once you have your papers you can legitimately replace it with a custom part (as far as dvla goes)

Re: UK registration of a classic with a modified frame [Re: ferretjuggler] #726717
02/25/18 12:38 am
02/25/18 12:38 am
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Posts: 149
England
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ferretjuggler Offline OP
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No I'm afraid that as the frame has permanent and irreversible modifications, it's got to be a Q Plate according to the DVLA rules, no matter how many "original" type parts are fitted.
I got that from the link on your previous post.

BTW there is a way (possibly) of "getting rid" of a Q plate.
AFAIK once you have registered a vehicle on a "Q" you have 12 months to go back to the DVLA with dating evidence and swap the "Q" for an age related plate.
Once 12 months has passed you are stuck with the Q plate for evermore.

I know of someone who contrived to re-register a Q plate vehicle - by pretending that the original Q plate identity had been lost - and getting a new Q plate registration.
Contrary to predictions that the DVLA would just resurrect the old number, they did not.
A totally different Q registration was issued which was duly converted to an age related plate and Historic Vehicle status.
No doubt the naysayers will claim that that couldn't have happened, but it did and boosted the value of the vehicle by 50% at least.
Would it work if I tried it ?
Probably not knowing my luck.
I should add that this was before the NOVA database existed and a lot of other changes.


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