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Valve lifter #725296
02/12/18 10:47 am
02/12/18 10:47 am
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,207
Bolton Lancs UK
A
Andy Higham Online content OP
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Andy Higham  Online Content OP
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Bolton Lancs UK
The valve lifter arm to cable angle on my Goldie rockerbox seems wrong to my eyes. It is impossible to get a more correct angle because the arm hits the top fin.
[Linked Image]20180212_104220 by Sigma Projects, on Flickr


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
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Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725305
02/12/18 1:21 pm
02/12/18 1:21 pm
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 159
County Durham
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ducati2242 Online content
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County Durham
I have just fitted mine had quite a bit of trouble getting it to work . I wa informed that it has to go one at the 5 o'clock position . I purchased mine from len haggis and it doesn't hit the head at all . I haven't got the lever on the bars fitted at the moment and the spring is pushing it back further than where it actually starts to work which is at the 5 o'clock position . yours looks longer .

[Linked Image]

Re: Valve lifter [Re: ducati2242] #725312
02/12/18 2:27 pm
02/12/18 2:27 pm
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 159
County Durham
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ducati2242 Online content
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County Durham
here it is with the spring and the cable off . As you can see it misses the top fin .
[Linked Image]

Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725315
02/12/18 3:13 pm
02/12/18 3:13 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,207
Bolton Lancs UK
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Andy Higham Online content OP
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Bolton Lancs UK
Yes it misses the fin but the angle between arm and cable is very accute. Ideally for the best mechanical advantage, the angle should be 90 deg when the valve is lifted


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725316
02/12/18 3:25 pm
02/12/18 3:25 pm
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 159
County Durham
D
ducati2242 Online content
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Posts: 159
County Durham
its not like that with the lever fitted and 5 o'clock is the correct position which is what it is .

Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725345
02/12/18 7:10 pm
02/12/18 7:10 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,207
Bolton Lancs UK
A
Andy Higham Online content OP
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Andy Higham  Online Content OP
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Bolton Lancs UK
Just because it is the correct position doesn't make it right.
The arm is 35mm / 1 3/8" long, at that angle the effective length is around 22mm / 7/8" long


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725353
02/12/18 8:08 pm
02/12/18 8:08 pm
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 159
County Durham
D
ducati2242 Online content
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County Durham
I've already said the spring was pushing it back that's why i took it off to show how it misses the fins. When it is pulled to lift the valve it is at 90 degrees . Don't know what you are going on about . Mine works .

Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725354
02/12/18 8:13 pm
02/12/18 8:13 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 471
Cork Ireland
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chaterlea25 Online content
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Hi Andy and Ducati,

I'm not sure if its the angles the photos are taken from but it looks like the top fin on Andy's engine is closer to the
rocker box joint face than on Ducati's ?

John

Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725355
02/12/18 8:19 pm
02/12/18 8:19 pm
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 159
County Durham
D
ducati2242 Online content
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Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 159
County Durham
Think I need a better camera believe it or not all them parts look like new. Everything is either new or soda blasted . They don't look good at all in those pictures I posted .

Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725356
02/12/18 8:26 pm
02/12/18 8:26 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 471
Cork Ireland
C
chaterlea25 Online content
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Posts: 471
Cork Ireland
Hi
I have all those parts sitting on my bench waiting to build my engine, including a new repro lifter lever and an original
I will look tomorrow and see if I can see what is causing the problem for Andy
John

Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725365
02/12/18 9:44 pm
02/12/18 9:44 pm
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 159
County Durham
D
ducati2242 Online content
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Posts: 159
County Durham
here's a better photo of the valve lifter in the operating position just before it touches or opens the valve .
[Linked Image]

Re: Valve lifter [Re: ducati2242] #725372
02/12/18 11:00 pm
02/12/18 11:00 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,576
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content

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Originally Posted by ducati2242
in the operating position just before it touches or opens the valve .
Just before it touches the valve when the piston is near TDC on the compression stroke, or at some other random position of the crankshaft?

Curious about this, I checked the lifter on my DBD Catalina. As best I could measure with it in position, the overall length of the arm from the pivot point to the far end of the arm, i.e. the part of the arm that would touch the fin if it rotated forward that far, is ~1-9/16" (1.56"). The height of the pivot point above the fin is ~1.58". So, if the arm rotated that far forward it would hit the fin. What saves us is the fact it doesn't rotate that far forward in order to lift the valve. At least, when the valve is fully seated, as it is when near TDC on the compression stroke, which is the only time it needs to lift the valve. However, if the crank is in some other orientation the valve can be partially depressed and the lifter would have to rotate even further forward to reach it. Which is why I asked if your engine is currently at TDC on the compression stroke.

Since your setup look OK (although the arm does look a bit long), and since your latest photo shows it has rotated far enough forward to do its job (at TDC), I predict you will find it works fine as-is.

Not that you asked, but if you had a BB head you wouldn't have noticed this. The arm is the same length but the nearest fin would allow it to clear by ~almost 3/4" if it rotated that far forward. But, for the same reason as the DBD, it doesn't.

Last edited by Magnetoman; 02/12/18 11:05 pm. Reason: added BB info.
Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725423
02/13/18 11:54 am
02/13/18 11:54 am
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 313
Kent, England
J
John Alexander Offline
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Kent, England
Valve lifter length should be one and a half inches

Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725456
02/13/18 6:28 pm
02/13/18 6:28 pm
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 83
Christchurch New Zealand
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Lew Graham Offline
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Christchurch New Zealand
I also found that an important part of the process was getting the angle correct between the splined lifter arm and the shaft with the cam that actuates the pressing on the rocker arm/valve, i.e. selecting the correct relative positions at the splines.

Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725463
02/13/18 7:16 pm
02/13/18 7:16 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 471
Cork Ireland
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chaterlea25 Online content
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Hi All,
I mocked up the head ,rockerbox and valve lifter shaft and arm earlier,
On my parts the lever will clear the top fin with a gasket between head and rockerbox
without the gasket it touches,
From head joint face to the top of the fin is 7/16ths near enough
It looks to me that Andy's lever is longer than mine?

John

Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725466
02/13/18 7:31 pm
02/13/18 7:31 pm
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,576
U.S.
Magnetoman Online content

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U.S.
Below are two photos chaterlea25 asked me to attach for him.

All three of my Gold Stars have the lifter in their resting states at the same angle shown in Andy's first post. While the cable doesn't pull on them at 90-deg. the additional force required because of the more acute angle simply isn't an issue.

Attached Files photo 2.JPGphoto 1.JPG
Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725468
02/13/18 8:20 pm
02/13/18 8:20 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,207
Bolton Lancs UK
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Andy Higham Online content OP
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I will get my measuring stick out when I get back home. I am currently 300 miles away in Canterbury.
My arm definitely hits the fin at about the 4.30 position. The head is a "Ron Lewis" pattern, the lifter arm is a stainless one from Phil Pearson.


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725476
02/13/18 8:58 pm
02/13/18 8:58 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 471
Cork Ireland
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chaterlea25 Online content
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Cork Ireland
Hi Andy,
The head and lifter parts pictured are repro from Autocycle Eng
I did not find the original BSA (B31?) lever
Have you compared the SS lever to the one from your B31 head?

John

Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725558
02/14/18 2:36 pm
02/14/18 2:36 pm
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 15
UK
A
Andy55 Offline
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UK
I also have a "Ron Lewis" head. I am not at the build stage yet but a quick mock up shows that I will have the exact same issues. I guess we need a shorter actuating arm?

Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy55] #725571
02/14/18 4:23 pm
02/14/18 4:23 pm
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 313
Kent, England
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John Alexander Offline
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Kent, England
You can vary the position of the valve lifter slightly but classic case with reproduction parts that are different to original spec, this is what happens-but is it a real problem.

Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725576
02/14/18 4:46 pm
02/14/18 4:46 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,207
Bolton Lancs UK
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Andy Higham Online content OP
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Worst case scenario I could flip the arm, make a new abutment and operate it from above


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725786
02/16/18 10:04 am
02/16/18 10:04 am
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,207
Bolton Lancs UK
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Andy Higham Online content OP
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Andy Higham  Online Content OP
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Bolton Lancs UK
The distance from top of the fin to centre of lifter shaft is 34.5mm
The centre to centre length of the lifter arm is 35mm
The length from the centre of the lifter shaft to the end of the lifter arm is 40.5mm


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #725981
02/18/18 5:21 am
02/18/18 5:21 am
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,250
Middle East,
Kerry W Offline
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Middle East,
I spent a lot of time fiddling about with the valve lifter arm...as MM says, not getting the optimum angle at full 'pull' on the cable is not an issue (unlike the same scenario with front brake arms) - all you need to do is pull is lift the valve off its seat a few thou, and the available leverage is ample to achieve that - initially the pull is harder, though improves as the arm travels. The arm will never pass the fin, and not does it need to, though the setup needs to be in the right place to achieve the aim...

...warning here too, as an aside..don't use the lifter at high rpm: as the books alude to, it is possible for the inner lever (that acts against the rocker) to travel past the rocker arm, rendering the lifter useless. Short of somehow lifting the pushrod from the bottom (to move the rocker out of the way) the only way to get the inner lifter arm back to the correct position is to lift the rocker box off...which if you have rocker box studs means lifting the head...don't ask me how I know this.


No generalisation is wholly true, not even this one.
Oliver Wendell Holmes
Re: Valve lifter [Re: Andy Higham] #726107
02/19/18 12:54 am
02/19/18 12:54 am
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 135
UK
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flowboy Offline
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Looking at your head Andy (so to speak) it looks like there is less meat above the top fin than on Ducati 2242's & Mag'man's heads. The only Ron Lewis heads I have seen have been on race bikes where a lifter isn't generally used. I can vouch for the ugly appearance of the lifter cable & lever re. "correct" angles, mine is the same but it works as Mag'man & Kerry W describe. Bit of a BSA parts bin job.

It doesn't matter where the arm sits as long as: the actual internal lifter is clear of the rocker when the motor is running but can open the valve sufficiently when the lever on the bars is operated. That said, there is a limited range of positions due to the restriction of the clevis on the external lever, hence the ugly bend in the cable that most of us end up with. Used to see a lot of the internal lifters with bad wear on them from heavy use or from them running on the rocker all the time from wrong adjustment.
I'm not sure if anyone makes the spindle & inner parts these days?

Last edited by flowboy; 02/19/18 3:21 pm.

na

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