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Victor Special hard to start #724731
02/08/18 9:03 am
02/08/18 9:03 am
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Creaky Offline OP
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I bet this topic has been done to death but once more won't hurt. I have a 1969 Victor Special which is a mongrel to start. The timing is spot on and the jetting is correct except the pilot which is removable on my 930/11 carby is only a 20 instead of the recommended 25. I have ordered a 25. Not here yet. With the 20 I find the screw has to be only a bit over 1/4 out or the motor won't run. This indicates to me that, indeed the richer 25 should allow me to have the screw 1.5 turns out or thereabouts. My question is, would not a 20 pilot jet with the screw 1/4 turn out give the same result as a richer pilot with the screw in a leaner position. (eg 1.5 turns out). Will my bike start and idle better with the 25 and why? Another problem I had was that at 1/4 throttle coasting along it was very jerky but acceleration and WOT was perfect. I replaced the needle (standard 2 ring) and needle jet (106) with identical brand new ones and problem solved, smooth as..... Why? Who knows. The old needle and jet must have been worn but not that I could measure or see. Anyway starting is my main problem now. I have standard coil ignition. Brand new plug, coil, points and capacitor and I have a good spark. Would electronic ignition help? Any ideas before I break my leg?

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Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724734
02/08/18 9:13 am
02/08/18 9:13 am
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,129
Sydney, Oz
S
Shane in Oz Offline
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This is probably a silly question, but what is your starting technique?

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Shane in Oz] #724736
02/08/18 10:52 am
02/08/18 10:52 am
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Creaky Offline OP
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Shane, I've tried all sorts. The usual as described by the previous owner is. Fuel on, tickle carb till it just overflows, key on, kick up to compression, pull valve lifter and push just over comp, release valve lifter, no throttle, bring kicker to very top and kick long and fast. Then swear. If it fails I do the same but no tickle this time. Then swear again. Sometimes I give it 1/4 throttle and it starts. I don't have a choke and have considered putting one on but have been told flooding with the tickler serves the same purpose. I've watched various Youtube clips about starting them. The previous owner had very little problem starting it using the method he showed me.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724742
02/08/18 1:24 pm
02/08/18 1:24 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,111
Bolton Lancs UK
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Andy Higham Offline
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Bolton Lancs UK
If the pilot jet is too small, there will not be enough fuel to start the engine

Last edited by Andy Higham; 02/08/18 1:25 pm.

1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724743
02/08/18 1:27 pm
02/08/18 1:27 pm
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 169
Ohio
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Andrew Dunham Offline
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Ohio
Try pushing the kicker a little further down. Mine usually likes approaching half way down (past compression) or so.


1961 BSA Super Rocket
1968 BSA A50
1969 BSA 441 VS
1970 BSA Thunderbolt
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724748
02/08/18 2:01 pm
02/08/18 2:01 pm
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 241
NYC & Upstate NY
A
AML Offline
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NYC & Upstate NY
Creaky,
if your carb is clean and the jetting is correct, an extended throttle stop screw can make a difference. It does for me and helps with both cold and hot starts.
The other thing is that early Victors came with the screw in pilot jet, but later models came with a pressed in pilot jet which is behind the air screw. If your carb is not original (though I think the "930/11" stamping makes it so), I'd look behind the air screw to see if there's a pilot jet pressed in, and if so make sure it's clear.
or the carb just needs a cleaning; boil it or use an ultrasonic cleaner.
Adam

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724752
02/08/18 2:43 pm
02/08/18 2:43 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 562
Ewing. NJ
E
edunham Offline
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Ewing. NJ
All these bikes are a little different. On my 441, after feeling compression, I pull the release in and slowly push the kickstarter all the way down. I then let it all the way up and give it a boot. If the engine is cold, I kick it a couple of times with the release in and the ignition off, before going through the starting ritual. The theory being that the engine sucks some fuel into the compression chamber that way. On my B50, which I thought would be similar and gave me no end of difficulty until I figured out the starting ritual, the trick is little or no tickling. If the engine is thoroughly cold, I give the tickler a quick little stab and stop before it floods. If it floods, it isn't starting. Another example is my T25. It starts right up for me without difficulty. My daughter has a hard time, even if I stand along side her coaching. Part of that is that I am confident it will start. She is not. My suggestion is that you put the right pilot jet in, experiment with the starting technique (particularly the amount of flooding) and kick with assurance it will start.

Ed from NJ

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: edunham] #724778
02/08/18 6:07 pm
02/08/18 6:07 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,670
Canada
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LarryLebel Offline
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Canada
Electronic ignition made a huge difference on my B44R with both easier starting and better running. I highly recommend Wassel EI.

Last edited by LarryLebel; 02/08/18 6:09 pm.
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724799
02/08/18 8:10 pm
02/08/18 8:10 pm
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,129
Sydney, Oz
S
Shane in Oz Offline
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Originally Posted by Creaky
Shane, I've tried all sorts. The usual as described by the previous owner is. Fuel on, tickle carb till it just overflows, key on, kick up to compression, pull valve lifter and push just over comp, release valve lifter, no throttle, bring kicker to very top and kick long and fast. Then swear. If it fails I do the same but no tickle this time. Then swear again. Sometimes I give it 1/4 throttle and it starts. I don't have a choke and have considered putting one on but have been told flooding with the tickler serves the same purpose. I've watched various Youtube clips about starting them. The previous owner had very little problem starting it using the method he showed me.

That should be pretty much it. It might be worth a try kicking it through a couple of times before turning the ignition on, as per Ed's suggestion.

It's fairly critical to not open the throttle, so it needs to be set up to idle when cold. It will then idle fast when it's warmed up, so AML's extended throttle stop screw comes into play as well for a slower idle when hot.
My B44 starts well cold, but can be cranky when it's hot. If it doesn't start in 3 or 4 kicks, I assume it's flooded and kick again with the throttle wide open, which often works.

Your symptoms do sound a bit like a partially blocked idle circuit, or possibly even crud in the bottom of the float bowl.

Most importantly, do you sacrifice a red cockerel or white?

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Shane in Oz] #724809
02/08/18 9:43 pm
02/08/18 9:43 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
C
Creaky Offline OP
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Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Thanks for all your replies. Andy, Yes I am getting a 25 pilot and hope that helps. Andrew, Yes, when I feel compression I pull the lifter lever and push the kicker so the piston is probably halfway down so the exhaust valve is open and it is so easy to kick that I should get enough speed for the momentum to turn the crankshaft past the next compression stroke. I think that is the theory. AML, I am definitely going to track down one of those extended screws. Beats burning my hand on the exhaust using a screwdriver. Twice now. There is no pressed in jet I am sure as I can poke a wire .030 inch diameter through after removing the air mixture screw. At first this was a bit blocked and I thought that may have been the trouble. But alas, wrong again. Edunham, I've tried kicking it over with ignition off first also but you've hit the nail on the head. It's all in the mind. You have to be confident it's going to start and it will. Maybe. Like when you Karate chop a house brick, which I do all the time. Larry, I'll follow up on that Wassel E1. Hope it's not too exxy. Shane, I always start with closed throttle and my hand off the twistgrip to make sure. Sometimes it works, sometimes it don't. I see you're in Oz. If you're in Brisbane let me know and I'll give you a try at starting the b............

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724817
02/08/18 10:31 pm
02/08/18 10:31 pm
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,129
Sydney, Oz
S
Shane in Oz Offline
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Sydney, Oz
Originally Posted by Creaky
I see you're in Oz. If you're in Brisbane let me know and I'll give you a try at starting the b............
I'm in Sydney, or I'd have offered to give you a hand, or foot as the case may be.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724821
02/08/18 11:15 pm
02/08/18 11:15 pm
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,696
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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Just a few things.
If the previous owner started it no problems, why are you changine things ?
Apart from the carb, what else have you done to it ?

To me it sounds more like your technique rather than the bike.
If you are starting on the center stand make sure you do not twist the throttle while decending .
I found unit singles much easier to start standing next to them kicking left footed .
This is because in that position I can easily kick fully through to the stop , which is slightly forward of vertical and most important my torso does not move so I do not twist the throttle.

The other thing that can make them a bugger to start is wear in the cam bush which bounces the points cam when the inlet valve closes creating a wrong timed spark that can not ignite the uncompressed charge and reducing the spark which happens at the right time.
pull the valve adjustment cap and spark plug then drop a rod down the plug hole.
With your 3rd & 4th hands rotate the engine and verify that the plug is firing on compression, that the valves are fully closed and that it is only firing once every 2nd rotation.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724822
02/08/18 11:18 pm
02/08/18 11:18 pm
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Posts: 3,696
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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There is a BSA OC in Qld.
Ther are nice people and will happily give you some hands on help if asked.
Most are between Brissy & the border.
Shane & I are down south.

OTOH if you care to po over to the B50 forum ( B50.org ) there are a few unt single owners in your neck of the woods.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724829
02/09/18 1:01 am
02/09/18 1:01 am
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,593
Shingle Springs, California
Roadwarrior Offline

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Shingle Springs, California
Are you certain the timing is spot on? Flood the motor. Engine to compression stroke, then hit the compression release. Kick all the way through. It should start unless your timing is off.

Last edited by Roadwarrior; 02/09/18 1:01 am.

Bob


73 Triumph T140 Main Ride
70 Bonnie
67 BSA West Coast Hornet

56 Chevy

Who are the brain police?



Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Shane in Oz] #724834
02/09/18 2:31 am
02/09/18 2:31 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline

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ohio, usa
Originally Posted by Shane in Oz

Most importantly, do you sacrifice a red cockerel or white?


my preference is for black.


live every day.
die once.
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: BSA_WM20] #724849
02/09/18 5:45 am
02/09/18 5:45 am
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
C
Creaky Offline OP
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WM20, I don't have a centrestand. The bloke who restored it said they were not available for the Victor but I was hoping he was wrong. If I can find one that is designed for this bike I will get one for sure, not only for starting but it seems unstable on its side stand and has nearly dropped off twice. Any details about a centrestand for this model would be appreciated. I will now wait for my 25 pilot and let you all know how it goes. Thanks to you all.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724854
02/09/18 6:46 am
02/09/18 6:46 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,293
Scotland
kommando Online content
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Victor specials do not have the center stand lugs on the frame, Victor Roadsters and the Shooting Star do.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: kommando] #724863
02/09/18 10:18 am
02/09/18 10:18 am
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Creaky Offline OP
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Kommando, Thanks, looks like no centrestand for me then. And Larry, Where can I get a Wassel E1. I've been reading how good they are but can't find where to get them. Can you post a link please.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724873
02/09/18 12:31 pm
02/09/18 12:31 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,388
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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Originally Posted by Creaky
Kommando, Thanks, looks like no centrestand for me then. And Larry, Where can I get a Wassel E1. I've been reading how good they are but can't find where to get them. Can you post a link please.



This crowd offer it: http://unionjack.com.au/spares/parts/index.php?page=Home Bottom of that page, if your view is same as mine.

Don't know whether they really have it, or if they're a dinkum firm.

Last edited by triton thrasher; 02/09/18 12:32 pm.

Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724885
02/09/18 3:48 pm
02/09/18 3:48 pm
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,322
melbourne florida
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bodine031 Online content
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I have a 69 B-44VS since 1981. It to was a pain to get lit up. Like a lot of Norton later twin owners I went modern. Mukuni round slide 30mm, Boyer EI & Typanium R/R. Ford ATF (old stuff) in the primary,Redline shock proof in the gear box, Valvoline VR 60wt. in the engine. Also has a MAP external oil filter on it. & a MG4L Gel Electrolite battery, handles the vibration way better than even an AGM batt.This bike is now big fun and a pleasure, Starts 1 or 2 kicks cold, warm, or hot. My 62 yr. young wife can even pop it off.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: bodine031] #724915
02/09/18 7:16 pm
02/09/18 7:16 pm
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,670
Canada
L
LarryLebel Offline
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Canada
Creaky. I bought my Wassel EI from a west coast Canada local company called British Isle Motorcycle.
www.britmc.com

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724922
02/09/18 7:33 pm
02/09/18 7:33 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 749
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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Totally agree with Bodine's comments above and I have made similar mods to my 68 Shooting Star to make it start easily and run reliably.

With most classic bikes what you have to consider is that many of the parts needed for reliable starting are likely well past their sell by date. However its not always obvious that a part is worn so my approach is to replace components with modern equivalents.

For example:-
- auto advance units rely on having correctly tensioned springs and parts that are not seized. Sometimes starting problems can be caused by the timing being way out because the AAU is worn. Easiest solution is to fit a Boyer/Pazon/Wassel electronic ignition which is fit and forget.
- over the years, AMAL carbs suffer from a variety of problems including warped mounting flanges, worn slides and blocked idle circuits. Best to replace with a new AMAL Concentric or modern equivalent e.g. Mikini, JRC
- might be worth checking your wiring and ensuring the battery is supplying at least 12.5v, the charging system is working and all connections to the coil etc. are OK. I would also fit new a HT lead and cap, spark plug and check the coil resistances.


1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724965
02/10/18 3:35 am
02/10/18 3:35 am
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Sydney Australia
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Before you start throwing money at the bike willy nilly you really should find out what is wrong with the bike or weather it is just your starting technique.

So either get some one to look over it or get a manual ( the Rupet Ratio book is very good ) and start checking things yourself.
It could be something easy to fix like the auto advance unit having slipped on the taper , there is no pin or key so a simple lick back can cause it to slip putting the timing out.
BJ's carry both AMAL & Wassel and they are right there in Brissie BJ's Bikes & Bits
They are reasonable people to do business with & have a workshop and will give you a full report on the condition of the bike , but due to the dubuious dealing with British bike owners no longer do repairs.
As suggested previously the BSA OC Qld have several members with unit singles and some of them have been riding them for decades so can & will help you get your technique & bike running properly.
That is why they formed, to help people get & keep BSA's on the roads.
In any case if you are thinking of Historic Registration you will have to be a member of an authorised club and that really menas the BSAOC or Historic MCC Qld

You might like to read through Bushmans Concentric page which is as good a description of how concentrics works as any.
Jeff Skillen is still around but only has a face book page or phone number & I never put phone numbers on a web page.Although his AMAL rebuilds are not much cheaper than a std new AMAL
Wassel is a brand I try to avoid there stuff varies greatly from one batch to the next and one has no idea where they are getting made.
One will be great and the next one will be junk.
We had a B40 sieze that the Goulburn national rally because the brand new Wassel alternator's stator potting mix, expanded and filled up the space between the stator & rotor , locking the engine solid.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724972
02/10/18 4:43 am
02/10/18 4:43 am
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,823
ohio, usa
kevin roberts Offline

fefsa
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ohio, usa
i'm taking the Boyer off mine and going back to points.

AAU from eBay and a 6CA plate and points from peter quick in the mail as i write.


live every day.
die once.
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724984
02/10/18 9:09 am
02/10/18 9:09 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,388
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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Originally Posted by WM20
Wassel is a brand I try to avoid there stuff varies greatly from one batch to the next and one has no idea where they are getting made.
One will be great and the next one will be junk.


The Vape ignition, originating from the Czech Republic and branded “Wassell” really appears to be well made and fuss-free in service. Watch this space, as I put some more miles on one this year.

You are right though, to say that a problem starting a bike should be addressed by fixing the problem, not by fitting fancy conversions.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724993
02/10/18 10:49 am
02/10/18 10:49 am
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Sydney Australia
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We have been in a bit short of rain the past two seasons thus cash was etting a little short.
So I went with the Wassel 6V regulator/ rectifier on the M20.
It has run an MC1 ( which is wrong for an EPL ) for 15 years with no problems.
Not only did I have to rewire the dynamo to fit it but I have had nothing but trouble with the dynamo regularly reverse polorizing so I then have to reverse the changed wiring to flash the dynamo then reverse it agin to fit the rectifier.
So after running the gauntlet 5 times the Wassel is of & the DVR2 is going on.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: BSA_WM20] #725001
02/10/18 11:05 am
02/10/18 11:05 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,388
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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scotland
Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
We have been in a bit short of rain the past two seasons thus cash was etting a little short.
So I went with the Wassel 6V regulator/ rectifier on the M20.
It has run an MC1 ( which is wrong for an EPL ) for 15 years with no problems.
Not only did I have to rewire the dynamo to fit it but I have had nothing but trouble with the dynamo regularly reverse polorizing so I then have to reverse the changed wiring to flash the dynamo then reverse it agin to fit the rectifier.
So after running the gauntlet 5 times the Wassel is of & the DVR2 is going on.


You're confusing me by talking about a rectifier with a dynamo and I don't know what an MC1 or an EPL are.

Most electronic regulators for dynamos seem to be flawed designs and won't start charging a flat battery and they drain the battery at low RPM. The DVR2 gets the reputation of being the good dynamo regulator.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: triton thrasher] #726309
02/21/18 7:45 am
02/21/18 7:45 am
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Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Creaky Offline OP
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I think 'BSA WM20' is in the wrong thread as I don't know what he is talking about either and I agree with Triton Thrasher. "You're confusing me by talking about a rectifier with a dynamo and I don't know what an MC1 or an EPL are." Anyway for anyone who was following my thread, my 30 pilot jet turned up and it made absolutely no difference. With careful measuring with fine wires I determined that the hole down the 30 is exactly the same size as the 25. My air screw still needs to be only 1/4 way out so I'm stuffed if I know! I think the problem is my starting technique. I have fitted an extended idle adjust screw which I can adjust by hand and I turn it in one full turn, put the piston about 1/2 way down after TDC, bring the kicker to the very top and give an almighty kick to the very bottom and with a bit of luck it starts. Then I can wind back the idle screw. I will keep practicing. I think the jet had nothing to do with it but this could only be proved if I tried an even richer jet and found the screw could then be further out.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726310
02/21/18 8:02 am
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Originally Posted by Creaky
With careful measuring with fine wires I determined that the hole down the 30 is exactly the same size as the 25.

They say there are some badly calibrated jets out there.


Quote
My air screw still needs to be only 1/4 way out so I'm stuffed if I know! I think the problem is my starting technique. I have fitted an extended idle adjust screw which I can adjust by hand and I turn it in one full turn,

Which screw- throttle stop or pilot mixture?

Quote
put the piston about 1/2 way down after TDC, bring the kicker to the very top and give an almighty kick to the very bottom and with a bit of luck it starts.

Sounds fairly normal. If your almighty kick gets it over the next compression and there's fuel and spark, it should start. But yeah- a bit of luck can make all the difference.



Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: triton thrasher] #726312
02/21/18 9:41 am
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T Thrasher, I suppose it depends on who makes the jets as to how accurate they are so you could be right. I meant the idle speed screw. The mixture screw has to be about 1/4 turn out or it starts to falter, even after it has warmed right up so I don't change that. And with the piston position, I used to push it just past TDC but that means the valves are still closed making it a bit harder to kick but more importantly the crankshaft does not get enough movement to get it past the next firing stroke. That's what I think is happening. Also you have to hold your mouth the right way. No wonder God invented electric start.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726314
02/21/18 10:05 am
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If the bike will only idle with the pilot mixture only 1/4 turn out then as this controls the air then the pilot circuit fuel side is not giving enough fuel.

[Linked Image]

So either your pilot jet is partially blocked or the route for the fuel is blocked. Look at the diagram and check the route is clear from the entry all the way through and including the 2 exit holes into the venturi marked as black dots in the yellow pilot mixture chamber.

http://www.jba.bc.ca/Bushmans%20Carb%20Tuning.html

Getting the pilot mixture screw into the 1 to 2 turns out range with the bike warm should make starting easier, for cold starts you can use an extended throttle stop screw that allows you to turn that 1/2 to 1 full turn which saves you trying to guess the correct position with the throttle as you just leave it closed, as the bike warms up you unscrew the throttle stop screw.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726315
02/21/18 10:20 am
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It's odd that the jet adjustment works, but ends up at 1/4 turn.

Air can leak into the pilot fuel passage at the float bowl gasket.


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Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726316
02/21/18 10:23 am
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I just use the throttle twist grip to keep the engine running until it warms up, but no matter.

I suppose you've done the spraying of the manifold joints, to find air leaks there.


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Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: kommando] #726317
02/21/18 10:43 am
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Kommando,Where your diagram says 'gas intake etc' I presume that is where the pilot jet is screwed in, as mine is. Where you say 'gas side is plugged' mine is also plugged. So I assume the air comes from 'air intake', is adjusted 1.5 turns out eg by the screw, fuel is sucked down the orange bit and mixed in the yellow bit. If the above is all true I must point out I have had wires down all those passages and all are clear. Why did earlier amals have a fixed jet and where did it go and is that why the blanking screw is now there on left. Also where you say 'Pilot Jet ??? Bushing 0.016" dia'. I can push a wire .032" through there after removing the mixture adjust screw. . Could this be part of my problem. Also to save buying another jet what size hole would I need to make my old 20 into a 30 eg. Doesn't matter if I wreck it as I have the good 25.PS . This could prove my jet is still too lean. That is a great diagram which explains a lot.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726318
02/21/18 11:02 am
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Quote
Kommando,Where your diagram says 'gas intake etc' I presume that is where the pilot jet is screwed in, as mine is.


If your pilot jet is in that position then that is the 2 stroke position and was changed to the 4 stroke position early in the Concentric production as in particular on the Triumph 500 twin it gave problems. The 4 stroke position is the pilot bush identified by the orange box, on 4 strokes it is always a 25 jet ie 17 thou. The screw is a modification to provide easy access to the pilot bush jet for cleaning, read the whole page I linked to for details. To override the pilot bush it needs to be drilled out oversize say to 2mm or 80 thou, 32 thou could be restricting flow as you virtually have 2 pilot jets.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726319
02/21/18 11:33 am
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Kommando, I read that link and I now understand it better. But, as I can push a 0.032" wire through where the pressed in jet may still be ( I thought it would have been removed so they could use a screw in type in the float bowl area) maybe the pressed in jet is still there but drilled out to 0.032", but because I have a 25 jet also screwed in this is effectively forcing the fuel through 2 jet holes restricting it too much, hence too lean a mixture. So, how about I remove the 25 screwed in jet altogether and give that a go. Should be too rich then I would think but I could then let the screw out more turns. If I were to drill out the blanking screw to check what's in there, is there a thread where I can put a screw back in to block it off again or would JB Weld do the trick? Sorry to be so long-winded but this is driving me mad.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: kommando] #726321
02/21/18 11:48 am
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Komm, Just read your last reply again."To override the pilot bush it needs to be drilled out oversize say to 2mm or 80 thou," So, you suggest I drill out the blanking plug, then drill out the bush to 80 thou, then fill up the blanking hole and use my 25 screw-in jet in the float bowl area? Correct?

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726323
02/21/18 12:16 pm
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You can drill the pilot bush out from the screw adjuster side, just make sure you do not go too far and drill the blanking plug, place your drill on the float bowel surface and mark it to the correct depth before drilling, the pilot bush is 4mm long to 5mm at most, then you have to remove the swarf. You could remove the blanking plate, you then tap the hole 2BA and then use a 2BA screw to block it until you need to remove for access to clean out the passageways easier and drill out the pilot from that side.

Don't forget TT's suggestion of an air leak if drilling out the pilot bush changes nothing.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: kommando] #726327
02/21/18 2:21 pm
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On all of the 441's - you shouldn't have to give it an almighty kick as following the simple starting procedure...push the starter down until it meets resistance, pull in the compression release lever then immediately let it out and proceed bringing the kick starter down with a swift push should start. When you tickle the carb, a bit of gas will flow out and don't tickle more after that. When these bikes are in tune..one to three kicks does it. If you keep working the kick starter over and over, this will lead to premature failure of the kick starter spring. The problem sounds like your carb definitely.

Last edited by myshootingstar68; 02/21/18 2:32 pm. Reason: add words
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726345
02/21/18 6:27 pm
02/21/18 6:27 pm
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Croaky,

Your carb is 930/11.
As concentrics were only supplied with the screw-in pilot jet for a short time (for 4-strokes), it would be worth ascertaining whether this version was before or after the change to pressed-in pilot jet.

Anyone know at which number the change occurred? John H perhaps?


If it was originally the screw-in jet type:

you may be on a bit of a “hiding to nothing”, in that it was less than ideal to start with, and would now be nearly 50 years old.
Unless it has been properly refurbished, it is quite likely that the slide/bore are well worn.
This would allow too much air to pass by the slide, hence the need to wind the air screw in so much.


If it was from after the change to the pressed-in jet type:

the slide/bore fit may still be a problem, and it could be that a PO has tried to “adjust for it” by drilling the fixed jet larger.
Is the .032” that you mentioned the largest wire that would fit, or just the largest wire you tried? If there is no pressed in jet, the hole should be much larger than that, by a factor of 2 or more.

If it is .032”, I would suggest trying the bike without the screw in jet first, and unwinding the air screw say 2 turns, before doing anything more radical. Though I’d be surprised at a good result.
.032” is big, copied from another’s post:

"Use these ONLY as a guide, as the final jet orifice is adjusted by hand during manufacture and checked with a manometer."

Flow in cc’s Jet Diameter
per minute in inches

15 –
20 .015″
25 –
30 .018″
35 –
40 .021″
45 –
50 .024″
55 –

Reference: – Vintage Motorcyclists Workshop by Radco page 129


When the PO was starting it easily, was the screw in jet in it then?

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: koan58] #726361
02/21/18 10:08 pm
02/21/18 10:08 pm
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Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Koan,..quote.............."When the PO was starting it easily, was the screw in jet in it then?"................. Yes it had a 20 and the screw was in 1/4 turn. He could start it quite easily but not every time. You have some great info here. I have just found I can push a 2mm drill, shaft end first down the adjust hole and then I get a guitar string and work it down and round the corner from where the screwed in jet goes and it does meet up with the 2 mm drill. This stuffs my theory that the fixed jet was drilled out but not enough. The slide is a bit loose in the bore so maybe I should consider a brand new carby which I believe I can get in Australia for around $200.00. What do you blokes think? Commando said......quote "To override the pilot bush it needs to be drilled out oversize say to 2mm or 80 thou, 32 thou could be restricting flow as you virtually have 2 pilot jets." .........Seeing as I can get a 2mm drill through there I am now thinking that part of the passage is all ok. Thanks to you all. I will keep you posted.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726368
02/21/18 11:51 pm
02/21/18 11:51 pm
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From what you have just described, it seems that you have a very early carb (maybe original).

Unless it's been in a time warp, it will be heavily worn.

Depending on how important originality is to you, you may wish to go for an expensive reconditioning, or a new carb.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: koan58] #726392
02/22/18 6:27 am
02/22/18 6:27 am
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Koan 58, I have just ordered a brand new Mk 1 carby which will be here next week. I will post the result.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726405
02/22/18 11:13 am
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I had the same problem with my '68 Victor. Had an old carb in good condition, cleaned it meticulously, replaced all the jets etc etc. It would fire virtually every kick but refused to start. Bought another unused 930 carb on e bay, fitted it, started 2nd kick.


VicCyclone

1965 A50 Cyclone Clubman
1966 Victor GP
1967 Victor Special
1968 Victor Special
1968 A65L

2009 HD FXDC
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726501
02/23/18 2:03 am
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Just remember there is more to the pilot circuit than the air hole jet.
Screw the adjuster out 2 to 3 turns then block off the inlet from the float bowl.
Remove the slide and shove the spray tube on a can of WD 40 / Carb cleaner etc as fa as you can up the pilot air intake.
Gie it a good long spray & observe the 2 tiny holes that connect the pilot mixing chamber to the main mixing tube.
BE carefull not to get an eye full of what ever you are spraying.
You should get two strong sprays out of these holes with the inner bigger than the outer.
If not then there is crud in the pilot mixing chamber and no matter what you do that carb will never start nor idle properly till it is cleaned.
Varnish can be washed out with a solvent bath or some ultrasounic cleaning.
people obsess about the jet but totally forget about the mixing chamber.

I rode B40 & B50 for 15 years as my daily transport and once sored tha are a doddle to start.
Get a friend to observe you.
Unless you are standing next to the bike there is a 99,99% chance that you are opening the throttle when trying to kick start and with a BSA unit single that is certain failure.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: BSA_WM20] #726523
02/23/18 10:08 am
02/23/18 10:08 am
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Vic, That's what I want to hear. I will let you know next week. Trevor, Yes I have triple checked those tiny holes and they perform as per your description. After I get my new carby I am going to drill out the bungs (on the old one) and see what goes on in there. As for starting, I have to be on the bike as I have no centre stand but I have been winding up the idle stop screw a bit and holding my right hand off the throttle as it is hard not to give it a twist as I am kicking. I would like to be able to use my left leg as the right one is wearing out but no can do without a centre stand and apparently there is not one available for the Victor Special and it has no mounting lugs anyway.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726531
02/23/18 12:28 pm
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I stand on the right side on my VS and use my right leg but the left is possible too, the side stand is down but I pull the bike up off it before kicking so its only used if the bike falls away from me, I stop it going the other way. My B44 Shooting Star has the lugs for the centre stand and that helps starting as you are not wasting force into compressing the suspension, it all goes into the flywheel instead, the stand has not worn out.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726542
02/23/18 1:58 pm
02/23/18 1:58 pm
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My old '69 Victor Special came from the factory without a choke.

When cold, it usually refused to start.
I learned to remove the air cleaner, leave the ignition OFF, cover the mouth of he carb with my hand,
pull the compression release and kick the bike over two or three times.

THEN the bike would start. Without going through this process at the beginning of the day, the bike wouldn't run.

The clue to the problem was an hour spent kicking the damned thing, then pulling the spark plug and discovering the plug was completely DRY. Piston vacuum wasn't pulling gas into the cylinder.

Install a choke and the starting problem may end.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Irish Swede] #726611
02/24/18 12:46 am
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Creaky Offline OP
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Irish, My carby does not have a choke, hence I don't have a cable or lever but I may get one as the new carby does come with one so I can see how your theory stacks up. Thanks.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726671
02/24/18 6:46 pm
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Creaky, AMAL also made a "plunger choke" that had a mechanism to operate it by pushing a rod down on the top of the carburetor itself. It was used on late pre-unit Triumph Thunderbirds and on unit 500 "bathtub" models.

I think Surrey Cycles in Britain once listed it for concentrics as well, and it might still be available from one of the AMAL carb parts distributors.

It would be a bolt-on, and an easy fix for the problem.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726674
02/24/18 6:59 pm
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I fitted a choke to my VS, it does help on cold starts plus perversely on warm starts, on the warm starts I am guessing it is helping with warm fuel but carb is cool as I have a long alloy manifold and a double thickness tufnol spacer. On warm starts it 8 strokes as soon as it catches so you have to be quick turning the choke off.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726688
02/24/18 9:21 pm
02/24/18 9:21 pm
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
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On my B44 Shooting Star I'm using a JRC carb which has an enrichment circuit to help with cold starts, this info won't be of any use to you as you're getting a brand new AMAL carb which is a good move.

IMHO the choke mechanism on AMAL Concentric carbs is a crude mechanism which I have never felt to be necessary for cold starts unless in extreme cold circumstances. My A65 uses twin AMAL 930 Concentric carbs without any chokes fitted. I can easily start this bike in the coldest South UK winter months by simply using the tickler and maybe up to five kicks. In the summer it usually needs one kick.

I feel that cold starts are dependant on the ambient conditions and choke slides only really help in very cold climates. I would imagine that in Brisbane the climate would be favourable to easy starting without needing a choke if everything is set up ok.

Some ideas to help with cold starts as follows:-
- you need to use fresh fuel no more than 2 months old, modern fuels contain alcohol which will evaporate and/or absorb water which will reduce the potency
- spark plugs seem to be more prone to fouling with modern petrol so check and change as required
- AMAL and other carbs are prone to the idle circuits gumming up if the bike is not run for a while, so try to clean out and use fresh fuel
- I have found that the AMAL carb jetting & configuration as originally specified by BSA usually works well if everything else (e.g. exhaust etc.) is standard.
- My starting procedure is to stand on the right side of the bike with the bike on the centre stand or side stand. I use my right leg to bring the piston up until compression is starting to be felt, I then kick hard which brings the piston past TDC and usually starts the engine. I rarely the the de-compressor.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by gunner; 02/24/18 9:33 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: gunner] #726952
02/27/18 12:41 pm
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Creaky Offline OP
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Gunner and others, My carby arrived today. It has a fixed pilot jet, 220 main, 106 needle and clip in middle slot so I installed it just like that. It has a choke but I have no cable so I blocked off the hole. It did not even look like starting using my usual technique. So I fitted the choke using a temporary cable. Still no good. Not even a backfire. Turned the fuel off. Then for some reason it started and ran perfectly so after letting it cool down and I removed the choke and it would not start. I think I know the problem now. I must never use the tickler. And I might have told you I fitted an extended stop screw and this is the secret. (in my case anyway). This is my latest procedure. Fuel on, find compression, pull decomp lever and push piston down a bit, never tickle, no throttle and kick. If it does not start give a full turn on the stop screw and try again. And it will start. I took it for a ride and it performed perfect and of course I had to wind the stop screw back once it had warmed up. I think my whole problem from the start was I had a 3.5 slide instead of a 3 which is why the air screw had to be so far in, and I used the tickler, flooding the engine. I will do more tests tomorrow and hopefully confirm the above is true. Now when it is hot I can now adjust the air screw to 1.25 turns out for a nice even tick over.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726963
02/27/18 2:25 pm
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Just an observation, seems your technique is ok, especially with the new carb but when you say air screw, shouldn't it be the mixture screw, sorry to be pernickety. Also in normal cases the throttle stop screw for tick over, once the mixture has been correctly adjusted should only be adjusted once and and then left alone, but good news after all your frustration.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726970
02/27/18 4:21 pm
02/27/18 4:21 pm
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just saw this thread, I've had the same issue hard start issue on my 67 VS as can be seen from the other thread, and had a similar experience,

I changed out the carb and the bike runs, but is still bloody hard to start.

I've had it on good authority to put in a new 12 volt stator and fresh rotor, new coil and Podtronics regulator/rectifier +swap out the ET AAU for a 12 degree one and put in a later 6CA AAU points plate, but that's about $500 US in parts and I'm done sinking dosh into the bike.

So... I've got the bike on eBay right now for $1500 with best offer... when it runs it does run fine, but the buyer must expect a good work out -- at least until the ignition issue is addressed!

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726989
02/27/18 9:01 pm
02/27/18 9:01 pm
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
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Hi Creaky,

some further thoughts on your starting problems:-

Quote
I think I know the problem now. I must never use the tickler.


Something is not right if this is your approach. Cold starting uses two techniques to help enrich-en the mixture as follows:-
- The tickler is intended to flood the float chamber and supply additional fuel for cold starts
- The choke is intended to restrict air flow and increase vacuum causing more air/fuel through the idle circuit

The above can be used independently of each other or together. As mentioned I believe simply tickling will work in warmer climates whilst both tickling and choke are more appropriate for cold climates. If you're finding the choke helps with starting but the tickler doesn't, this may be an indication of other issues.

Even though your carb is new its still possible the idle circuit could be partially blocked with crud. This can happen since the pot metal carb material can oxidize even a few months after manufacture, so maybe worth cleaning out. Also set the air screw to 1 1/2 turns out, this is the default setting.

Your point about only starting after raising the slide are revealing. This would also seem to show that the idle circuit is not working as intended.

Regarding the air slide, looking at the parts lists for 1968 B44's shows a No 3 slide was used whilst 1970 used a No 3 1/2 slide, I dont know why there was a difference.

Something else to check is the throttle cable slack. I've been confounded a couple of times by throttle cables which are slightly too short and dont let the air slide fully bottom. This can cause all manner of starting problems so worth a check.

There's a great article on AMAL Carb Tuning by John Healey, see page 6 At this Link

I would also be checking the ignition timing, compression and valve train as these can also have a big affect on starting.

Anyway sounds like you have made good progress so far, keep at it smile

Last edited by gunner; 02/27/18 9:10 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726991
02/27/18 9:13 pm
02/27/18 9:13 pm
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Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Creaky Offline OP
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John, No I did mean the idle speed adjust screw............ (give a full turn on the stop screw).............. Now it's going well I won't touch the mixture screw. It will remain 1.25 turns out. The reason I screw the idle speed adjust screw in is I don't trust myself not to flick the throttle as I am kicking it so I hold my right hand on the handlebars somewhere else. But it needs a small amount of throttle to start so I use the screw instead of trying to hold the throttle at that small amount. I don't wind it back till the engine is well warmed up. I have an extended stop screw and have pushed a piece of rubber fuel pipe over the end so I can turn it by hand. I wish it was the knurled type you can get for the monoblocks,(I think)............ and Dana, Don't give up. Try what I have done. Jet the carby as per original specs, never use the tickler, wind up the stop screw and keep your hand off the throttle. It may work for you too. I am now fairly sure my original problem was technique and the reason for the mixture screw having to be so far in was that it had a 3.5 slide, (too lean) instead of the recommended 3. Having said all that I will do more testing today and make sure I am not leading you all up the garden path. (PS Never using the tickler could be fine provided your float level is right and the needle and seat are perfect)

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Dana_twin] #726992
02/27/18 9:14 pm
02/27/18 9:14 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,722
Central Virginia
Lannis Online content

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Lannis  Online Content

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Posts: 12,722
Central Virginia
Originally Posted by Dana_twin

So... I've got the bike on ebay right now for $1500 with best offer... when it runs it does run fine, but the buyer must expect a good work out -- at least until the ignition issue is addressed!


Looks like a great deal for a 441 enthusiast! And an honest description ...

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727001
02/27/18 10:15 pm
02/27/18 10:15 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 562
Ewing. NJ
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edunham Offline
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I mentioned before that I had a similar experience with my B50. No tickling and it starts right up. Tickle it and it won't start. All my other Brit bikes like a good tickle when cold (like me!), including my 441, but not my B50. It has a fresh top end and a new AMAL Premier with the correct float level. Took a while to figure out. If it hasn't been started in a while, I flick the tickler down for an instant (force of habit), but not enough for any fuel to come out, use the compression release to cycle the motor through and get a little fuel in the cylinder, then use the old kick starting ritual I learned on my Velo, confident that it will start on the first kick. It usually does.

Ed from NJ

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727270
03/02/18 9:29 am
03/02/18 9:29 am
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Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Creaky Offline OP
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I went for a good long ride today and the bike performs perfectly. It starts first kick using my method described above. The new carby probably solved the problem but now I think about it I could have saved a lot of money by just buying a new No. 3 slide and the extended stop screw. And, of course perfected the method of starting. This may not work for all of you as all bikes are different but my method is: don't use the tickler, no choke (I don't have one), little bit of throttle (with the stop screw), get the piston in the right position and it starts every time, hot or cold. Also as my needle and seat are new I never turn the fuel off unless I'm not using it for a while. Now I have dis-proved the myth that B44s are hard to start I will start a thread on my next project about the clutch. I am told they are always very heavy to pull in. See me in that thread and thanks to you all for your help. Best make this the last of this one as 3 pages is almost a record. And PS I very nearly wasted more money on electronic ignition.Nothing wrong with points.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727315
03/02/18 8:34 pm
03/02/18 8:34 pm
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,129
Sydney, Oz
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Shane in Oz Offline
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Jeff Skillon in Maitland sells extended, knurled, throttle stop screws amongst other goodies for AMAL Concentrics.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727322
03/02/18 10:29 pm
03/02/18 10:29 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,111
Bolton Lancs UK
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Andy Higham Offline
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One of the shortcomings of Mk1 concentrics and earlier carbs is the lack of a starter circuit. The choke arrangement does not help starting as the choke slide is inside the throttle slide. Tickling the carb raises the fuel level to momentarily richen the mixture by an indeterminate amount.
More modern carbs use a starter circuit with its own air intake, fuel jet and slide to deliver a precise mixture for starting


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727325
03/02/18 11:14 pm
03/02/18 11:14 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 574
Isle of Wight, UK
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koan58 Offline
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"The new carby probably solved the problem but now I think about it I could have saved a lot of money by just buying a new No. 3 slide and the extended stop screw."

This doesn't necessarily follow because:

#1 the pilot jet is now in a better position for your application

#2 the new carb is unworn in respect of air leakage around the slide

The only way to come to the above conclusion would be to put the 3 slide in the old carb and see.

I wouldn't expect you to waste your time doing this, purely for science, but it is obvious that the engine wanted a richer (and more atomised) mixture at (very near to) closed throttle.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727541
03/04/18 9:24 pm
03/04/18 9:24 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Creaky Offline OP
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Koan58, I agree with you and I would try the 30 slide in the old carby except I drilled out the part where the mixture screw would go in the opposite side to double check there was no obstruction and seeing it all ok I then drilled out the brass piece under the body (inside the float chamber area) to expose the mixing chamber and check out those 2 tiny holes. All was ok there also. The first drillout is easy to repair but not so the brass plate. BTW I did this after I got my new carby on the bike and running well. And, Shane, I'll try to track down that bloke in Maitland.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Shane in Oz] #727542
03/04/18 9:29 pm
03/04/18 9:29 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Creaky Offline OP
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Shane, Have you any contact details for Jeff Skillon

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727547
03/04/18 9:59 pm
03/04/18 9:59 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 574
Isle of Wight, UK
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koan58 Offline
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Good result Cranky, that's what's important, enjoy!

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727597
03/05/18 7:46 am
03/05/18 7:46 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,696
Sydney Australia
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BSA_WM20 Offline
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Creaky,
PM me ( bsansw1attpgdotcomdotau) with your email address & I will have a ferret around in the obsolete parts box.
I am fairly sure I came across a Walbro or Nikki welch plug that looks about the right size for a Concentric primary mixing chamber.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 03/05/18 7:48 am.

Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727699
03/06/18 3:39 am
03/06/18 3:39 am
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Creaky Offline OP
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Hey Koan, I'm Creaky not Cranky, but sometimes........ and Trevor, I have just PMd you, thanks.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727706
03/06/18 4:12 am
03/06/18 4:12 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,696
Sydney Australia
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Excellent.
That is an obsolete address I set up for the BSA BSA club before we bought our own domain and it resides on an old computer I keep for doing artwork on so I fire it up tonight, ferret around the workshop and post you out some.
And the shops you are looking for are BJ Bike Bits & Mikes Classic Parts , both a short ride from Brissie.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
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