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Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726674
02/24/18 6:59 pm
02/24/18 6:59 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,332
Scotland
kommando Online content
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Scotland
I fitted a choke to my VS, it does help on cold starts plus perversely on warm starts, on the warm starts I am guessing it is helping with warm fuel but carb is cool as I have a long alloy manifold and a double thickness tufnol spacer. On warm starts it 8 strokes as soon as it catches so you have to be quick turning the choke off.

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Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726688
02/24/18 9:21 pm
02/24/18 9:21 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 775
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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Farnham, Surrey, UK
On my B44 Shooting Star I'm using a JRC carb which has an enrichment circuit to help with cold starts, this info won't be of any use to you as you're getting a brand new AMAL carb which is a good move.

IMHO the choke mechanism on AMAL Concentric carbs is a crude mechanism which I have never felt to be necessary for cold starts unless in extreme cold circumstances. My A65 uses twin AMAL 930 Concentric carbs without any chokes fitted. I can easily start this bike in the coldest South UK winter months by simply using the tickler and maybe up to five kicks. In the summer it usually needs one kick.

I feel that cold starts are dependant on the ambient conditions and choke slides only really help in very cold climates. I would imagine that in Brisbane the climate would be favourable to easy starting without needing a choke if everything is set up ok.

Some ideas to help with cold starts as follows:-
- you need to use fresh fuel no more than 2 months old, modern fuels contain alcohol which will evaporate and/or absorb water which will reduce the potency
- spark plugs seem to be more prone to fouling with modern petrol so check and change as required
- AMAL and other carbs are prone to the idle circuits gumming up if the bike is not run for a while, so try to clean out and use fresh fuel
- I have found that the AMAL carb jetting & configuration as originally specified by BSA usually works well if everything else (e.g. exhaust etc.) is standard.
- My starting procedure is to stand on the right side of the bike with the bike on the centre stand or side stand. I use my right leg to bring the piston up until compression is starting to be felt, I then kick hard which brings the piston past TDC and usually starts the engine. I rarely the the de-compressor.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by gunner; 02/24/18 9:33 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: gunner] #726952
02/27/18 12:41 pm
02/27/18 12:41 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Creaky Offline OP
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Creaky  Offline OP
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Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gunner and others, My carby arrived today. It has a fixed pilot jet, 220 main, 106 needle and clip in middle slot so I installed it just like that. It has a choke but I have no cable so I blocked off the hole. It did not even look like starting using my usual technique. So I fitted the choke using a temporary cable. Still no good. Not even a backfire. Turned the fuel off. Then for some reason it started and ran perfectly so after letting it cool down and I removed the choke and it would not start. I think I know the problem now. I must never use the tickler. And I might have told you I fitted an extended stop screw and this is the secret. (in my case anyway). This is my latest procedure. Fuel on, find compression, pull decomp lever and push piston down a bit, never tickle, no throttle and kick. If it does not start give a full turn on the stop screw and try again. And it will start. I took it for a ride and it performed perfect and of course I had to wind the stop screw back once it had warmed up. I think my whole problem from the start was I had a 3.5 slide instead of a 3 which is why the air screw had to be so far in, and I used the tickler, flooding the engine. I will do more tests tomorrow and hopefully confirm the above is true. Now when it is hot I can now adjust the air screw to 1.25 turns out for a nice even tick over.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726963
02/27/18 2:25 pm
02/27/18 2:25 pm
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 310
Kent, England
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John Alexander Offline
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Kent, England
Just an observation, seems your technique is ok, especially with the new carb but when you say air screw, shouldn't it be the mixture screw, sorry to be pernickety. Also in normal cases the throttle stop screw for tick over, once the mixture has been correctly adjusted should only be adjusted once and and then left alone, but good news after all your frustration.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726970
02/27/18 4:21 pm
02/27/18 4:21 pm
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 612
Oregon
D
Dana_twin Offline
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Posts: 612
Oregon
just saw this thread, I've had the same issue hard start issue on my 67 VS as can be seen from the other thread, and had a similar experience,

I changed out the carb and the bike runs, but is still bloody hard to start.

I've had it on good authority to put in a new 12 volt stator and fresh rotor, new coil and Podtronics regulator/rectifier +swap out the ET AAU for a 12 degree one and put in a later 6CA AAU points plate, but that's about $500 US in parts and I'm done sinking dosh into the bike.

So... I've got the bike on eBay right now for $1500 with best offer... when it runs it does run fine, but the buyer must expect a good work out -- at least until the ignition issue is addressed!

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726989
02/27/18 9:01 pm
02/27/18 9:01 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 775
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Online content
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gunner  Online Content
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Posts: 775
Farnham, Surrey, UK
Hi Creaky,

some further thoughts on your starting problems:-

Quote
I think I know the problem now. I must never use the tickler.


Something is not right if this is your approach. Cold starting uses two techniques to help enrich-en the mixture as follows:-
- The tickler is intended to flood the float chamber and supply additional fuel for cold starts
- The choke is intended to restrict air flow and increase vacuum causing more air/fuel through the idle circuit

The above can be used independently of each other or together. As mentioned I believe simply tickling will work in warmer climates whilst both tickling and choke are more appropriate for cold climates. If you're finding the choke helps with starting but the tickler doesn't, this may be an indication of other issues.

Even though your carb is new its still possible the idle circuit could be partially blocked with crud. This can happen since the pot metal carb material can oxidize even a few months after manufacture, so maybe worth cleaning out. Also set the air screw to 1 1/2 turns out, this is the default setting.

Your point about only starting after raising the slide are revealing. This would also seem to show that the idle circuit is not working as intended.

Regarding the air slide, looking at the parts lists for 1968 B44's shows a No 3 slide was used whilst 1970 used a No 3 1/2 slide, I dont know why there was a difference.

Something else to check is the throttle cable slack. I've been confounded a couple of times by throttle cables which are slightly too short and dont let the air slide fully bottom. This can cause all manner of starting problems so worth a check.

There's a great article on AMAL Carb Tuning by John Healey, see page 6 At this Link

I would also be checking the ignition timing, compression and valve train as these can also have a big affect on starting.

Anyway sounds like you have made good progress so far, keep at it smile

Last edited by gunner; 02/27/18 9:10 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726991
02/27/18 9:13 pm
02/27/18 9:13 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
C
Creaky Offline OP
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Creaky  Offline OP
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Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
John, No I did mean the idle speed adjust screw............ (give a full turn on the stop screw).............. Now it's going well I won't touch the mixture screw. It will remain 1.25 turns out. The reason I screw the idle speed adjust screw in is I don't trust myself not to flick the throttle as I am kicking it so I hold my right hand on the handlebars somewhere else. But it needs a small amount of throttle to start so I use the screw instead of trying to hold the throttle at that small amount. I don't wind it back till the engine is well warmed up. I have an extended stop screw and have pushed a piece of rubber fuel pipe over the end so I can turn it by hand. I wish it was the knurled type you can get for the monoblocks,(I think)............ and Dana, Don't give up. Try what I have done. Jet the carby as per original specs, never use the tickler, wind up the stop screw and keep your hand off the throttle. It may work for you too. I am now fairly sure my original problem was technique and the reason for the mixture screw having to be so far in was that it had a 3.5 slide, (too lean) instead of the recommended 3. Having said all that I will do more testing today and make sure I am not leading you all up the garden path. (PS Never using the tickler could be fine provided your float level is right and the needle and seat are perfect)

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Dana_twin] #726992
02/27/18 9:14 pm
02/27/18 9:14 pm
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 12,777
Central Virginia
Lannis Offline

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Lannis  Offline

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Posts: 12,777
Central Virginia
Originally Posted by Dana_twin

So... I've got the bike on ebay right now for $1500 with best offer... when it runs it does run fine, but the buyer must expect a good work out -- at least until the ignition issue is addressed!


Looks like a great deal for a 441 enthusiast! And an honest description ...

Lannis


I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is really going to be upset.
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727001
02/27/18 10:15 pm
02/27/18 10:15 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 588
Ewing. NJ
E
edunham Offline
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 588
Ewing. NJ
I mentioned before that I had a similar experience with my B50. No tickling and it starts right up. Tickle it and it won't start. All my other Brit bikes like a good tickle when cold (like me!), including my 441, but not my B50. It has a fresh top end and a new AMAL Premier with the correct float level. Took a while to figure out. If it hasn't been started in a while, I flick the tickler down for an instant (force of habit), but not enough for any fuel to come out, use the compression release to cycle the motor through and get a little fuel in the cylinder, then use the old kick starting ritual I learned on my Velo, confident that it will start on the first kick. It usually does.

Ed from NJ

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727270
03/02/18 9:29 am
03/02/18 9:29 am
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
C
Creaky Offline OP
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Creaky  Offline OP
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Brisbane, Qld, Australia
I went for a good long ride today and the bike performs perfectly. It starts first kick using my method described above. The new carby probably solved the problem but now I think about it I could have saved a lot of money by just buying a new No. 3 slide and the extended stop screw. And, of course perfected the method of starting. This may not work for all of you as all bikes are different but my method is: don't use the tickler, no choke (I don't have one), little bit of throttle (with the stop screw), get the piston in the right position and it starts every time, hot or cold. Also as my needle and seat are new I never turn the fuel off unless I'm not using it for a while. Now I have dis-proved the myth that B44s are hard to start I will start a thread on my next project about the clutch. I am told they are always very heavy to pull in. See me in that thread and thanks to you all for your help. Best make this the last of this one as 3 pages is almost a record. And PS I very nearly wasted more money on electronic ignition.Nothing wrong with points.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727315
03/02/18 8:34 pm
03/02/18 8:34 pm
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,137
Sydney, Oz
S
Shane in Oz Offline
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Shane in Oz  Offline
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Posts: 1,137
Sydney, Oz
Jeff Skillon in Maitland sells extended, knurled, throttle stop screws amongst other goodies for AMAL Concentrics.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727322
03/02/18 10:29 pm
03/02/18 10:29 pm
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,133
Bolton Lancs UK
A
Andy Higham Online content
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Posts: 1,133
Bolton Lancs UK
One of the shortcomings of Mk1 concentrics and earlier carbs is the lack of a starter circuit. The choke arrangement does not help starting as the choke slide is inside the throttle slide. Tickling the carb raises the fuel level to momentarily richen the mixture by an indeterminate amount.
More modern carbs use a starter circuit with its own air intake, fuel jet and slide to deliver a precise mixture for starting


1955 BSA B31 500cc "Stargazer"
1962 Greeves 200cc "Blue Meanie"
1962/67 Greeves 350
1967 Greeves 360 Challenger
1984 Suzuki GSX1100 EFE "Sorcerers Apprentice"
GM500cc sprint/LSR bike "Deofol"
Jawa 500cc "Llareggub"
2003 Aprilia RSV Mille "Lo Stregone"
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727325
03/02/18 11:14 pm
03/02/18 11:14 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 601
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
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Posts: 601
Isle of Wight, UK
"The new carby probably solved the problem but now I think about it I could have saved a lot of money by just buying a new No. 3 slide and the extended stop screw."

This doesn't necessarily follow because:

#1 the pilot jet is now in a better position for your application

#2 the new carb is unworn in respect of air leakage around the slide

The only way to come to the above conclusion would be to put the 3 slide in the old carb and see.

I wouldn't expect you to waste your time doing this, purely for science, but it is obvious that the engine wanted a richer (and more atomised) mixture at (very near to) closed throttle.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727541
03/04/18 9:24 pm
03/04/18 9:24 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
C
Creaky Offline OP
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Creaky  Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Koan58, I agree with you and I would try the 30 slide in the old carby except I drilled out the part where the mixture screw would go in the opposite side to double check there was no obstruction and seeing it all ok I then drilled out the brass piece under the body (inside the float chamber area) to expose the mixing chamber and check out those 2 tiny holes. All was ok there also. The first drillout is easy to repair but not so the brass plate. BTW I did this after I got my new carby on the bike and running well. And, Shane, I'll try to track down that bloke in Maitland.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Shane in Oz] #727542
03/04/18 9:29 pm
03/04/18 9:29 pm
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
C
Creaky Offline OP
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Creaky  Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Shane, Have you any contact details for Jeff Skillon

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727547
03/04/18 9:59 pm
03/04/18 9:59 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 601
Isle of Wight, UK
K
koan58 Offline
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 601
Isle of Wight, UK
Good result Cranky, that's what's important, enjoy!

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727597
03/05/18 7:46 am
03/05/18 7:46 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,725
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
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BSA_WM20  Offline
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,725
Sydney Australia
Creaky,
PM me ( bsansw1attpgdotcomdotau) with your email address & I will have a ferret around in the obsolete parts box.
I am fairly sure I came across a Walbro or Nikki welch plug that looks about the right size for a Concentric primary mixing chamber.

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 03/05/18 7:48 am.

Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727699
03/06/18 3:39 am
03/06/18 3:39 am
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
C
Creaky Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
Creaky  Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Hey Koan, I'm Creaky not Cranky, but sometimes........ and Trevor, I have just PMd you, thanks.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #727706
03/06/18 4:12 am
03/06/18 4:12 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,725
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
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Sydney Australia
Excellent.
That is an obsolete address I set up for the BSA BSA club before we bought our own domain and it resides on an old computer I keep for doing artwork on so I fire it up tonight, ferret around the workshop and post you out some.
And the shops you are looking for are BJ Bike Bits & Mikes Classic Parts , both a short ride from Brissie.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
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