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Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #724993
02/10/18 10:49 am
02/10/18 10:49 am
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Sydney Australia
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We have been in a bit short of rain the past two seasons thus cash was etting a little short.
So I went with the Wassel 6V regulator/ rectifier on the M20.
It has run an MC1 ( which is wrong for an EPL ) for 15 years with no problems.
Not only did I have to rewire the dynamo to fit it but I have had nothing but trouble with the dynamo regularly reverse polorizing so I then have to reverse the changed wiring to flash the dynamo then reverse it agin to fit the rectifier.
So after running the gauntlet 5 times the Wassel is of & the DVR2 is going on.


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Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: BSA_WM20] #725001
02/10/18 11:05 am
02/10/18 11:05 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,130
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
We have been in a bit short of rain the past two seasons thus cash was etting a little short.
So I went with the Wassel 6V regulator/ rectifier on the M20.
It has run an MC1 ( which is wrong for an EPL ) for 15 years with no problems.
Not only did I have to rewire the dynamo to fit it but I have had nothing but trouble with the dynamo regularly reverse polorizing so I then have to reverse the changed wiring to flash the dynamo then reverse it agin to fit the rectifier.
So after running the gauntlet 5 times the Wassel is of & the DVR2 is going on.


You're confusing me by talking about a rectifier with a dynamo and I don't know what an MC1 or an EPL are.

Most electronic regulators for dynamos seem to be flawed designs and won't start charging a flat battery and they drain the battery at low RPM. The DVR2 gets the reputation of being the good dynamo regulator.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: triton thrasher] #726309
02/21/18 7:45 am
02/21/18 7:45 am
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 17
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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I think 'BSA WM20' is in the wrong thread as I don't know what he is talking about either and I agree with Triton Thrasher. "You're confusing me by talking about a rectifier with a dynamo and I don't know what an MC1 or an EPL are." Anyway for anyone who was following my thread, my 30 pilot jet turned up and it made absolutely no difference. With careful measuring with fine wires I determined that the hole down the 30 is exactly the same size as the 25. My air screw still needs to be only 1/4 way out so I'm stuffed if I know! I think the problem is my starting technique. I have fitted an extended idle adjust screw which I can adjust by hand and I turn it in one full turn, put the piston about 1/2 way down after TDC, bring the kicker to the very top and give an almighty kick to the very bottom and with a bit of luck it starts. Then I can wind back the idle screw. I will keep practicing. I think the jet had nothing to do with it but this could only be proved if I tried an even richer jet and found the screw could then be further out.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726310
02/21/18 8:02 am
02/21/18 8:02 am
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Posts: 7,130
scotland
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Originally Posted by Creaky
With careful measuring with fine wires I determined that the hole down the 30 is exactly the same size as the 25.

They say there are some badly calibrated jets out there.


Quote
My air screw still needs to be only 1/4 way out so I'm stuffed if I know! I think the problem is my starting technique. I have fitted an extended idle adjust screw which I can adjust by hand and I turn it in one full turn,

Which screw- throttle stop or pilot mixture?

Quote
put the piston about 1/2 way down after TDC, bring the kicker to the very top and give an almighty kick to the very bottom and with a bit of luck it starts.

Sounds fairly normal. If your almighty kick gets it over the next compression and there's fuel and spark, it should start. But yeah- a bit of luck can make all the difference.



Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: triton thrasher] #726312
02/21/18 9:41 am
02/21/18 9:41 am
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Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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T Thrasher, I suppose it depends on who makes the jets as to how accurate they are so you could be right. I meant the idle speed screw. The mixture screw has to be about 1/4 turn out or it starts to falter, even after it has warmed right up so I don't change that. And with the piston position, I used to push it just past TDC but that means the valves are still closed making it a bit harder to kick but more importantly the crankshaft does not get enough movement to get it past the next firing stroke. That's what I think is happening. Also you have to hold your mouth the right way. No wonder God invented electric start.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726314
02/21/18 10:05 am
02/21/18 10:05 am
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Posts: 9,145
Scotland
kommando Online content
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If the bike will only idle with the pilot mixture only 1/4 turn out then as this controls the air then the pilot circuit fuel side is not giving enough fuel.

[Linked Image]

So either your pilot jet is partially blocked or the route for the fuel is blocked. Look at the diagram and check the route is clear from the entry all the way through and including the 2 exit holes into the venturi marked as black dots in the yellow pilot mixture chamber.

http://www.jba.bc.ca/Bushmans%20Carb%20Tuning.html

Getting the pilot mixture screw into the 1 to 2 turns out range with the bike warm should make starting easier, for cold starts you can use an extended throttle stop screw that allows you to turn that 1/2 to 1 full turn which saves you trying to guess the correct position with the throttle as you just leave it closed, as the bike warms up you unscrew the throttle stop screw.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726315
02/21/18 10:20 am
02/21/18 10:20 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,130
scotland
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It's odd that the jet adjustment works, but ends up at 1/4 turn.

Air can leak into the pilot fuel passage at the float bowl gasket.


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Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726316
02/21/18 10:23 am
02/21/18 10:23 am
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scotland
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I just use the throttle twist grip to keep the engine running until it warms up, but no matter.

I suppose you've done the spraying of the manifold joints, to find air leaks there.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: kommando] #726317
02/21/18 10:43 am
02/21/18 10:43 am
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Posts: 17
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Kommando,Where your diagram says 'gas intake etc' I presume that is where the pilot jet is screwed in, as mine is. Where you say 'gas side is plugged' mine is also plugged. So I assume the air comes from 'air intake', is adjusted 1.5 turns out eg by the screw, fuel is sucked down the orange bit and mixed in the yellow bit. If the above is all true I must point out I have had wires down all those passages and all are clear. Why did earlier amals have a fixed jet and where did it go and is that why the blanking screw is now there on left. Also where you say 'Pilot Jet ??? Bushing 0.016" dia'. I can push a wire .032" through there after removing the mixture adjust screw. . Could this be part of my problem. Also to save buying another jet what size hole would I need to make my old 20 into a 30 eg. Doesn't matter if I wreck it as I have the good 25.PS . This could prove my jet is still too lean. That is a great diagram which explains a lot.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726318
02/21/18 11:02 am
02/21/18 11:02 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,145
Scotland
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Quote
Kommando,Where your diagram says 'gas intake etc' I presume that is where the pilot jet is screwed in, as mine is.


If your pilot jet is in that position then that is the 2 stroke position and was changed to the 4 stroke position early in the Concentric production as in particular on the Triumph 500 twin it gave problems. The 4 stroke position is the pilot bush identified by the orange box, on 4 strokes it is always a 25 jet ie 17 thou. The screw is a modification to provide easy access to the pilot bush jet for cleaning, read the whole page I linked to for details. To override the pilot bush it needs to be drilled out oversize say to 2mm or 80 thou, 32 thou could be restricting flow as you virtually have 2 pilot jets.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726319
02/21/18 11:33 am
02/21/18 11:33 am
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Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Kommando, I read that link and I now understand it better. But, as I can push a 0.032" wire through where the pressed in jet may still be ( I thought it would have been removed so they could use a screw in type in the float bowl area) maybe the pressed in jet is still there but drilled out to 0.032", but because I have a 25 jet also screwed in this is effectively forcing the fuel through 2 jet holes restricting it too much, hence too lean a mixture. So, how about I remove the 25 screwed in jet altogether and give that a go. Should be too rich then I would think but I could then let the screw out more turns. If I were to drill out the blanking screw to check what's in there, is there a thread where I can put a screw back in to block it off again or would JB Weld do the trick? Sorry to be so long-winded but this is driving me mad.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: kommando] #726321
02/21/18 11:48 am
02/21/18 11:48 am
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Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Komm, Just read your last reply again."To override the pilot bush it needs to be drilled out oversize say to 2mm or 80 thou," So, you suggest I drill out the blanking plug, then drill out the bush to 80 thou, then fill up the blanking hole and use my 25 screw-in jet in the float bowl area? Correct?

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726323
02/21/18 12:16 pm
02/21/18 12:16 pm
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,145
Scotland
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You can drill the pilot bush out from the screw adjuster side, just make sure you do not go too far and drill the blanking plug, place your drill on the float bowel surface and mark it to the correct depth before drilling, the pilot bush is 4mm long to 5mm at most, then you have to remove the swarf. You could remove the blanking plate, you then tap the hole 2BA and then use a 2BA screw to block it until you need to remove for access to clean out the passageways easier and drill out the pilot from that side.

Don't forget TT's suggestion of an air leak if drilling out the pilot bush changes nothing.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: kommando] #726327
02/21/18 2:21 pm
02/21/18 2:21 pm
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On all of the 441's - you shouldn't have to give it an almighty kick as following the simple starting procedure...push the starter down until it meets resistance, pull in the compression release lever then immediately let it out and proceed bringing the kick starter down with a swift push should start. When you tickle the carb, a bit of gas will flow out and don't tickle more after that. When these bikes are in tune..one to three kicks does it. If you keep working the kick starter over and over, this will lead to premature failure of the kick starter spring. The problem sounds like your carb definitely.

Last edited by myshootingstar68; 02/21/18 2:32 pm. Reason: add words
Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726345
02/21/18 6:27 pm
02/21/18 6:27 pm
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 389
Isle of Wight, UK
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Croaky,

Your carb is 930/11.
As concentrics were only supplied with the screw-in pilot jet for a short time (for 4-strokes), it would be worth ascertaining whether this version was before or after the change to pressed-in pilot jet.

Anyone know at which number the change occurred? John H perhaps?


If it was originally the screw-in jet type:

you may be on a bit of a “hiding to nothing”, in that it was less than ideal to start with, and would now be nearly 50 years old.
Unless it has been properly refurbished, it is quite likely that the slide/bore are well worn.
This would allow too much air to pass by the slide, hence the need to wind the air screw in so much.


If it was from after the change to the pressed-in jet type:

the slide/bore fit may still be a problem, and it could be that a PO has tried to “adjust for it” by drilling the fixed jet larger.
Is the .032” that you mentioned the largest wire that would fit, or just the largest wire you tried? If there is no pressed in jet, the hole should be much larger than that, by a factor of 2 or more.

If it is .032”, I would suggest trying the bike without the screw in jet first, and unwinding the air screw say 2 turns, before doing anything more radical. Though I’d be surprised at a good result.
.032” is big, copied from another’s post:

"Use these ONLY as a guide, as the final jet orifice is adjusted by hand during manufacture and checked with a manometer."

Flow in cc’s Jet Diameter
per minute in inches

15 –
20 .015″
25 –
30 .018″
35 –
40 .021″
45 –
50 .024″
55 –

Reference: – Vintage Motorcyclists Workshop by Radco page 129


When the PO was starting it easily, was the screw in jet in it then?

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: koan58] #726361
02/21/18 10:08 pm
02/21/18 10:08 pm
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Posts: 17
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
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Koan,..quote.............."When the PO was starting it easily, was the screw in jet in it then?"................. Yes it had a 20 and the screw was in 1/4 turn. He could start it quite easily but not every time. You have some great info here. I have just found I can push a 2mm drill, shaft end first down the adjust hole and then I get a guitar string and work it down and round the corner from where the screwed in jet goes and it does meet up with the 2 mm drill. This stuffs my theory that the fixed jet was drilled out but not enough. The slide is a bit loose in the bore so maybe I should consider a brand new carby which I believe I can get in Australia for around $200.00. What do you blokes think? Commando said......quote "To override the pilot bush it needs to be drilled out oversize say to 2mm or 80 thou, 32 thou could be restricting flow as you virtually have 2 pilot jets." .........Seeing as I can get a 2mm drill through there I am now thinking that part of the passage is all ok. Thanks to you all. I will keep you posted.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726368
02/21/18 11:51 pm
02/21/18 11:51 pm
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Isle of Wight, UK
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From what you have just described, it seems that you have a very early carb (maybe original).

Unless it's been in a time warp, it will be heavily worn.

Depending on how important originality is to you, you may wish to go for an expensive reconditioning, or a new carb.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: koan58] #726392
Yesterday at 06:27 AM
Yesterday at 06:27 AM
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Koan 58, I have just ordered a brand new Mk 1 carby which will be here next week. I will post the result.

Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726405
Yesterday at 11:13 AM
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I had the same problem with my '68 Victor. Had an old carb in good condition, cleaned it meticulously, replaced all the jets etc etc. It would fire virtually every kick but refused to start. Bought another unused 930 carb on e bay, fitted it, started 2nd kick.


VicCyclone

1965 A50 Cyclone Clubman
1966 Victor GP
1967 Victor Special
1968 Victor Special
1968 A65L

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Re: Victor Special hard to start [Re: Creaky] #726501
6 hours ago
6 hours ago
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Sydney Australia
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Just remember there is more to the pilot circuit than the air hole jet.
Screw the adjuster out 2 to 3 turns then block off the inlet from the float bowl.
Remove the slide and shove the spray tube on a can of WD 40 / Carb cleaner etc as fa as you can up the pilot air intake.
Gie it a good long spray & observe the 2 tiny holes that connect the pilot mixing chamber to the main mixing tube.
BE carefull not to get an eye full of what ever you are spraying.
You should get two strong sprays out of these holes with the inner bigger than the outer.
If not then there is crud in the pilot mixing chamber and no matter what you do that carb will never start nor idle properly till it is cleaned.
Varnish can be washed out with a solvent bath or some ultrasounic cleaning.
people obsess about the jet but totally forget about the mixing chamber.

I rode B40 & B50 for 15 years as my daily transport and once sored tha are a doddle to start.
Get a friend to observe you.
Unless you are standing next to the bike there is a 99,99% chance that you are opening the throttle when trying to kick start and with a BSA unit single that is certain failure.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
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