BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
Jwood & co JRC Engineering dealers Jwood & co
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Member Spotlight
v8doog
v8doog
Montreal, Qc, Can.
Posts: 22
Joined: July 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
32 registered members (998John), 246 guests, and 439 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Geofft, WJS, Trondgv, Jonathan Ytterli, hunterjim00
10331 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Stuart 127
reverb 83
Lannis 61
Popular Topics(Views)
657,913 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics67,672
Posts657,380
Members10,331
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Start up/oil flow questions #724453
02/06/18 3:46 am
02/06/18 3:46 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
Tonight I fired up my 68 Lightning.....first time running in 30 years. The engine was rebuilt to stock specs with points and the AMAL carbs. I kicked over the engine about 40 times with no plugs and then fired it up for about 5 seconds. Then I thought about the oil flow and that I should be checking to see if there is oil coming back into the tank. What is the procedure for this? Can I look in the tank and see oil flowing as soon as the engine starts? Should I see oil flowing back to the tank if I remove the plugs and just kick over the engine?

Support your #1 BSA Forum and our favorite sponsors

Check out BSA on e-bay: BSA Parts in UK, BSA Motorcycles in UK, BSA Parts in North America, BSA Motorcycles in North America

 
 
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724463
02/06/18 7:52 am
02/06/18 7:52 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,432
Scotland
kommando Offline
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,432
Scotland
Can I look in the tank and see oil flowing as soon as the engine starts?

Yes

Should I see oil flowing back to the tank if I remove the plugs and just kick over the engine?


Takes a 100 or so kicks

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724525
02/06/18 6:09 pm
02/06/18 6:09 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,114
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content

Parts Dealer
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,114
Lancaster, California
Are the lines hooked up properly? If you are not sure, disconnect the pipes, squirt some oil in each pipe and kick the engine over. The pipe that "spits" the oil is the return. If all is well you could prime the engine

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724530
02/06/18 6:40 pm
02/06/18 6:40 pm
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
There are 3 lines coming from the engine. The smallest line goes to the rockers, the medium one (I think the return) goes to the bottom of the tank in the center. The largest line goes to the tank outlet near the drain plug. What do I look for in the tank? Will there be a clear oil stream coming from that bent pipe just inside the tank or will I have to look down to the bottom to see any movement? I have never even seen this or any other bike with an oil tank like this running before and I don't have an oil pressure gauge to tell me all is OK. What is the standard process for starting after a rebuild? Should I keep kicking it over until oil flows or should I start it and check? If starting how long do I wait before shutting off if I don't see oil flow?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724536
02/06/18 6:53 pm
02/06/18 6:53 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,114
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content

Parts Dealer
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,114
Lancaster, California
Should see a nice stream of oil. It has a rotary pump so it should be consistent. Did you put oil in the crankcase before you put the barrel on? Did you fill the sludge trap with oil as well? 5 seconds won't do any harm. I would start it again and monitor the oil tank.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724540
02/06/18 7:06 pm
02/06/18 7:06 pm
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
I put 8oz of oil in the crankcase but didn't fill the sludge trap. I'll give it a go later today when i get home. Thanks.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724553
02/06/18 8:56 pm
02/06/18 8:56 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,114
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Online content

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Online Content

Parts Dealer
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,114
Lancaster, California
Originally Posted by J. Grant
I put 8oz of oil in the crankcase but didn't fill the sludge trap. I'll give it a go later today when i get home. Thanks.



Let us know how it goes. Cheers

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724557
02/06/18 9:48 pm
02/06/18 9:48 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 613
Ewing. NJ
E
edunham Offline
BritBike Forum member
edunham  Offline
BritBike Forum member
E
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 613
Ewing. NJ
Do the check to see if you have the oil lines hooked up correctly. On first startup, it could take 15-20 seconds before oil starts spurting out the tube in the oil tank. You will be able to see it and it will be the longest 15-20 seconds you have ever experienced.

Ed from NJ

P.S. It doesn't hurt to fill both the feed and return lines with a pressure oil pump to ensure you do not have any air bubbles in the lines.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724569
02/06/18 11:26 pm
02/06/18 11:26 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 818
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
BritBike Forum member
gunner  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 818
Farnham, Surrey, UK
Ideally you should prime the oil pump via the inlet oil feed pipe as suggested by edunham above, this can easily be achieved by using a hand type oil pump with flexible spout inserted into the rubber inlet pipe. Pump oil in until its full and you feed resistance, then connect the feed pipe back to the oil tank.

Its also worthwhile feeding the rockers using the same method as above and additionally remove the rocker cover and pour 1/2 a pint of oil over the rockers and valves. Some of this oil should find its way down to the cam followers and help lube the camshaft additionally some will drain into the sump and be picked up by the oil scavenge.

As mentioned, you should see oil spurting back into the oil tank after a short time, if you have a return oil filter fitted it may take longer as the filter needs to fill.

Last edited by gunner; 02/06/18 11:27 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724573
02/06/18 11:41 pm
02/06/18 11:41 pm
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
I have oil flow. I now have to time with a strobe light and adjust the carbs. Will a regular strobe light work with the positive ground?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724576
02/06/18 11:57 pm
02/06/18 11:57 pm
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,796
Comox BC Canada
G
Gordo in Comox Offline
BritBike Forum member
Gordo in Comox  Offline
BritBike Forum member
G
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,796
Comox BC Canada
I always use a second separate battery for the strobe light so as not to confuse it by using the bike battery.

Gordo


Without frequent roadside repairs there is no fun in riding!
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724630
02/07/18 12:32 pm
02/07/18 12:32 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
When you observe the oil return flow back to the tank dont be surprised if it starts to spurt rather than continuously flow after about a minute. The return gears are twice the size of the feed, ie it empties faster than it fills, once the sump clears the oil flow back to the tank becomes intermittent, this is correct.

When you use the strobe a second pair of hands is very useful, at max advance around 4K the bike will want to walk backwards on its stand, one pair of hands for bars and throttle makes this a lot easier, the other pair uses the strobe and tweaks ignition to suit. it helps if the strobe marks are highlighted with typing correction fluid, and the workshop doors are closed lights off, background brightness makes the strobe hard to read.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724714
02/08/18 1:37 am
02/08/18 1:37 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
The bike starts easily and at high rpm the timing pin and mark lines up. Oil flow is good. After it warms up for 10-15 seconds the exhaust gets really smoky. seems whitish when idling and if I give it some gas it goes blackish. I adjusted the mixture and idle screws but without changing the smoking. The idle changed when I adjusted the screws though. I ran it for 5 minutes or more hoping it was the oil left over from the rebuild but that should have burnt off by now. After the engine cooled I checked the exhaust and found that it was really sooty (new pipes). Not oily. Plugs are the same. NGK BS8. Sooty but not oily. Could it be poor spark or just carbs bad. I rebuilt with an AMAL kit but could it be float adjustment or wrong jetting? Should I start a new thread?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724726
02/08/18 6:54 am
02/08/18 6:54 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,765
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
BritBike Forum member
BSA_WM20  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,765
Sydney Australia
Yes it would be good to start a new thread.

If you have not bored the engine of fitted new rings, don't worry about it for now.
Take it for a few runs around the block and see what it is like after an hour or so running.
Good chance the rings have gummed up a little or could even be stuck in a groove.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: BSA_WM20] #724727
02/08/18 7:03 am
02/08/18 7:03 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
I do have new rings. When I switched the bike off there was vapor coming out of the carbs which made me thing it was running rich rather than oil getting past the rings. The soot seems really dry too. Checked float level and that was ok. one carb had the needle jet on the middle groove rather than the top one so I fixed that. I tried to start it again but fuel wouldn't flow to the carb. It would come out of the tank with the hose removed but wouldn't flow through the hose to carb. Decided to call it a day.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724737
02/08/18 11:37 am
02/08/18 11:37 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
Check the filters in the float bowl banjos, they are probably blocked.
Are chokes fitted? If so do you know that the chokes are on when the lever is NOT pulling the cable, unlike every other choke in the world, amals are arsey facey, tight cable choke OFF.
Dont worry about vapour coming out of the carb, this is OK, just means it stopped with the inlet valve open.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724738
02/08/18 11:47 am
02/08/18 11:47 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,765
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
BritBike Forum member
BSA_WM20  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,765
Sydney Australia
If you have new rings, and hopefully gave the bore a quick hone, stop faffing around and go do a dozen laps of the block.
Some wide open throttle some heavy engine breaking to get those rings bedded in.
Then you can worry about the finner points of tuning.
Sitting in your shed at idle forever & a day will just glaze the bores and then you will be fiddleing with the carb for the next 1000 miles.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: BSA_WM20] #724776
02/08/18 6:02 pm
02/08/18 6:02 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 468
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
N
nert Offline
BritBike Forum member
nert  Offline
BritBike Forum member
N
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 468
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
Be careful not to overheat the engine. The air cooled engine relies on air flow to keep it cool. Stationary, setting timing, fooling with carb can quickly cause the engine to overheat.


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724830
02/09/18 1:40 am
02/09/18 1:40 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
Took it out for 15 minutes around the neighborhood. The smoke didn't get worse, was maybe a little better, especially the left pipe. It seemed to pull well but there was a little backfiring when I revved the engine with the bike standing still after the ride so I will recheck timing and valve adjustment. I have fuel filters in the line from the carbs to the tank and they don't fill much. I think that may be some of the problem with the backfiring. On the timing should I strobe the stator mark to the pin at full advance (~3000 rpm) or should I retard the timing slightly to account for crappy fuel nowadays?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724831
02/09/18 1:42 am
02/09/18 1:42 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
I checked the crank case for wet sumping and there was about 120cc's in there. I think that is ok?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724837
02/09/18 3:00 am
02/09/18 3:00 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
Remove the in line fuel filters they are unnecessary, the taps have filters as do the banjos, adding a 3 rd filter achieves very little except for adding bulk.
if the PO fitted in line filters its likely the gauze strainers at the taps have been damaged, or are missing entirely.

120cc s is fine,

if the pipes are not sealed well at the head this will cause backfiring, as will poor fitting silencers. To seal the headers, remove, clean port and header to bare metal and glue in with ordinary builders silicone, for pipe to silencer use exhaust paste.
Do you have chokes fitted? Are here two cables into the top of each carb, and a small lever on the bars?


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724847
02/09/18 4:49 am
02/09/18 4:49 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
The petcocks are missing the strainers so I have in line filters. I have no chokes but the hole is plugged. I was running 10/30 oil but bought some 40w tonight....maybe thicker oil will help?

I removed the plugs after my ride and found the right one was totally black and oily. I think this may have been the reason for the backfiring. My plan now is to clean the plugs, change oil, check valves and timing and then ride it. It seems as tough the main problem is smoke and is caused by the rings and the may or may not bed in properly. Does that sound reasonable and if so how long should I give it before I give up and redo the rings? If it's possible to do the job with the engine in place?? it shouldn't take too long.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724867
02/09/18 11:06 am
02/09/18 11:06 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
I think you may have broken or miss installed the rings, motor can stay in the frame , but its a complete top end strip.
When the barrels were fitted to the pistons , did you check the ring gaps first? rings can be fitted up side down.
Maybe if you used a lot of oil on assembly thats what caused the fouling, if it persists after cleaning the plugs , , then its strip down time.
I prefer to fit rings with only a light amount of oil on the bores, if large quantities are used it prevents or delays proper break in, correct honing grit for bores should be no finer than 200 grit, the factory finish was about 180, the honing should leave a 45 degree cross hatch pattern.
10/30 is very thin ( it wont have done any harm), I break in with 10 /40 cheap stuff, then go to 20/50 after the first change at 50 miles or so.
Petrol taps can be repaired by soldering in new gauzes.
A fresh rebuilt motor may smoke for a few secs on first start up, if it persists then something is wrong.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724907
02/09/18 6:25 pm
02/09/18 6:25 pm
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
I'm going to tear it down again. I think the honing was way too fine. The cross hatching was almost invisible compared to what I would see on freshly honed VW cylinders but I trusted the machinist. Is there a source for the petcock screens or do I make them up myself?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724924
02/09/18 7:40 pm
02/09/18 7:40 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,384
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,384
New Jersey USA
This suggestion is going to get me shouted at.
But these old Brit bikes are pretty crude pieces of engineering,
."In the day" --in the 60s when I started riding and had no money the accepted way of solving your problem was to get a piece of emery paper of about 150 grit and push it up and down the bore while turning it so that you got a cross hatch of about 45 degrees.
Make it rough---Triumph apprentices were told that if you couldn't strike a match off the bore then it was too smooth.
Then wash it thoroughly in warm soapy water x times---where x is a lot more than you think necessary.
Dry assemble--just one drop of oil on each thrust face of the piston.
Once you start it then make the engine work on and off using the gears.
When racing in the 60s we would "run in" ("break in" for US readers) a new bore in just a couple of laps.
Don't be too mamby pamby with these motors--they respect a tough hard approach.
HTH

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724927
02/09/18 7:48 pm
02/09/18 7:48 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
if you are handy with a soldering iron you can make new petcock filters using brass mesh, otherwise what Tman says.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: gavin eisler] #724937
02/09/18 8:38 pm
02/09/18 8:38 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,505
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
BritBike Forum member
triton thrasher  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,505
scotland
Originally Posted by gavin eisler
if you are handy with a soldering iron you can make new petcock filters using brass mesh, otherwise what Tman says.



Fuel tap and carb banjo gauzes get blocked and cause a roadside breakdown.

Inline filters generally don't.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724947
02/09/18 9:53 pm
02/09/18 9:53 pm
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
The rings were on correctly and are not broken. There was oil in the cylinders though. The skirts of the pistons below the rings have vertical light scratches on them (like honing marks) that are new. Are the pistons directional and need to go in pointing in a certain direction?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724962
02/10/18 1:43 am
02/10/18 1:43 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
I measured everything and here is what I have.

Cylinders both 2.951"

Pistons (original pistons) at the skirt - 2.943"

left side ring gaps

top - .021"
middle - .022"
bottom - .025"

right side ring gaps

top - .024"
middle - .025"
bottom - .025"

The ring gaps seem large. Could that have cause this, along with the too fine honing. They were new and are Hastings brand standard size. I can't remember what the gaps were when I installed the first time. not sure what to do now because if I bought new rings I would probably still have the same problem wouldn't I?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724983
02/10/18 8:43 am
02/10/18 8:43 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,505
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
BritBike Forum member
triton thrasher  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,505
scotland
8 thou clearance near the bottom of the piston skirt sounds like quite a lot on a 3” bore, but I’ve no A65 experience. It’s easy to get the measurements wrong.

The ring gaps are OK.


The vertical scratches are usually caused by a failure to clean the bores of honing grit.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725039
02/10/18 5:33 pm
02/10/18 5:33 pm
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
Isn't the piston clearance divided by two, making mine 4 thou?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725044
02/10/18 5:58 pm
02/10/18 5:58 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,505
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
BritBike Forum member
triton thrasher  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,505
scotland
Nope.

Piston to bore clearance is the difference in diameter between bore and piston.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725070
02/10/18 8:32 pm
02/10/18 8:32 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
Piston direction , big cutaway goes to inlet valve , if both the same , not critical, usually if theres writing on the top it should be readable if the viewer is facing forward.
What TT says. Book clearance for new pistons, 4- 5 thou ( 0.0039" - 0.0054"), source 1970 manual. Piston size must be measured from front to back at bottom of skirt, side to side is less, pistons are oval not round.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725117
02/11/18 12:28 am
02/11/18 12:28 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
I read up on this and will get a better tool to measure the pistons. Machinist OK'd them when I had the honing done but then again the honing was too fine. If the piston clearance is good I will hone it to 200 and put it back together. Should I use the same rings...only 10-15 minutes of run time on them. If they don't measure as good I will replace pistons ad rings with a 20 over set and get the barrels bored out and honed properly. Does this sound like a good plan? Any recommendations for a machinist near L.A. that is familiar with these motors.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725121
02/11/18 12:43 am
02/11/18 12:43 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
if the clearance is around 8 thou you will get piston slap, rehoned bores to sub 200 grit will help the old rings bed in, otherwise its up to you ,if you want less mechanical noise you need better fitting pistons. last time I fitted new pistons and rings I had to file the rings end gaps to get the right fit, your ring gaps arent too big, but for a fresh job it all points to too much clearance, go to a different shop, preferably one that knows BSAs. if I was in the USA I would use Ed Valiket,( Ed V) he knows BSAs , let the postal service take the strain.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725137
02/11/18 4:15 am
02/11/18 4:15 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
Did a lot of measuring tonight. Turns out that my calipers weren't quite long enough to measure the piston accurately. Got a micrometer and the skirt is 2.947 putting me at 4 thou. More careful measurements of the ring gap puts them all at 18-19 thou. Not sure what I did last time other than cheap feeler gauges and less lighting. I think I was measuring the feeler gauge that went into the gap but not necessarily all the way in and touching the cylinder wall. I think I am going to try a rough hone and put it back together and do a good break in run. It's free besides some time. If it doesn't work I'll send it out to be done.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725138
02/11/18 4:22 am
02/11/18 4:22 am
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,384
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,384
New Jersey USA
150 grit rather than 200 IMHO.
HTH

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725152
02/11/18 9:14 am
02/11/18 9:14 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,505
scotland
triton thrasher Online content
BritBike Forum member
triton thrasher  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 7,505
scotland
And wash the honing grit off with a sponge, soap and hot water, until the bore surface is sufficiently clean that it does not leave a black mark on a white paper tissue.

I don't put oil on the rings. Just enough WD40 or something on the bores to stop them rusting. A drop of oil on the front and back of each piston skirt.

Your oil system is already working and primed, isn't it? The instant the bike starts, get into gear and take off with a handful of throttle. Go for a couple of miles making it pull hard at over 3500 rpm, in bursts.

Then come home and re-torque the head and barrel base nuts and check valve clearances.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725871
02/17/18 1:29 am
02/17/18 1:29 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
Update.....I took everything apart and had the cylinder honed with 150 grit. Put it back together and took it out for a spin (10 miles/20 minutes) and still smoking but less. I let it cool down and pulled the plugs expecting to see black shiny plugs like last time but they were just a matte dark grey/brown with some parts still clean. They looked like the bike was just running slightly rich. Last time when the original issue occurred I had oil in the cylinder when I put a q tip/cotton bud in there. This time it is totally dry just a slight dusting of black but the cotton was mostly white still. The engine ran pretty well but there was some hesitation and a small amount of sputtering at higher rpms. It got me thinking that I could have a problem with the ignition strength....still on the old points and coils that the bike sat with for 30 years. My ammeter was bouncing on the negative side and my spark looks blue/orange and not that strong. Also the timing mark seems to jump around a bit. When I rev from idle to 3000 rpm the advance hits almost all at once at about 2500 rpm rather than climbing smoothly as the revs increase.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725886
02/17/18 6:00 am
02/17/18 6:00 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
advance mechanism was not sticky and I put a little grease on it. Battery voltage was 12.9 - 13.2 at 3.5k. I tested the 2 wires from the alternator and got 38v AC with no load. Battery by itself was 13.7v. Will try riding more before it comes apart again.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725899
02/17/18 11:48 am
02/17/18 11:48 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
Electronic ignition is a good thing for this model, the ignition cam can wobble if there is wear on the idler pinion bush, this gives erratic timing. if the wrong method is used to extract the AR mech ,ie, clouting sideways to free the taper , makes this even worse, the AR mech is meant to be pushed off using the internal thread.
i had a load of trouble with my 68 stock ignition , all cured by EI, if you do go for EI get 6 volt coils as well, EI is not affected by idler pinion bush wear..
Have you still got the original ignition condensers/caps,? , if so , change them for new, these are service items and may explain your orange sparks, the sure sign these are failing is big sparks at the points when running. good job on the bores, have fun.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725973
02/18/18 4:59 am
02/18/18 4:59 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
Took it out for another 20 minutes and the smoking has subsided quite a bit so I'll keep doing that and hopefully all will be well. One quick off-topic question....is there anything to know about shifting? Mine shifts well up and down through the gears but I did have one grinding incident when I stopped with the clutch in and the bike in third. When I downshifted at a stop from 2nd to first it crunched. Still seems to be running a bit rich and my ammeter is now generally in the negative range so will have to check that and the ignition. Still original condensers that are at least 40 years old but I will probably change to EI rather than replace stock ignition parts. I had so much fun riding it today so thank you top everyone for all the advice and help to get me going again.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725994
02/18/18 8:35 am
02/18/18 8:35 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,765
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
BritBike Forum member
BSA_WM20  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,765
Sydney Australia
You either shift with neither shaft moving ( engine oo & stationary ) or both shafts turning, rolling with the engine running.
Any other change will crunch or grind ( if going too fast to mesh ).
BSA boxes tend to be a little on the slow shifting wise so you just put light pressure on the pedal and when all is in sync it will just drop into gear.
Try to find neutral while rolling up to the stop and it will be easy.
Trying to find it sitting at eh lights holding the clutch in and you will wonder who stole it.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726009
02/18/18 11:01 am
02/18/18 11:01 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
The ammeter readings are not a lot of help, best check of charging system is to fit a voltmeter across the battery terminals, rev the motor, volts should rise with revs, and plateau about 14 - 15 volts over 3, 000 revs. Below 3,000 revs the ammeter may well read a -, and balance up to zero after that, you will only see big + readings when battery voltage is a bit low and the revs are up, normally the needle will hover somewhere around zero. Ammeters are a bit of a joke, they swing with bike vibes and dont tell you much useful info, a voltmeter, LED indicator is a More useful tool, these are available and will fit the idiot light holes in the lamp bucket, very easy to wire in.

+1 for Trevors info on gear change. Make sure the clutch is set up properly, with the bar end adjuster fully slack, remove the inspection plug centre of primary clutch end, undo the pushrod adjuster locknut and make sure there is 1/4 to 1/2 turn of slack before the centre screw touches the push rod. Lube the clutch cable, use ATF in the primary it helps prevent plate sticking. Change this oil regularly. The next step involves removing the prim outer, make sure the clutch releases evenly ,any wobble in the plates when withdrawn will give poor gear changes and make it hard to find neutral, tune out clutch wobble by adjusting clutch springs. A clutch refresh involves more than new plates, the centre cush drive also wears, this is often neglected. Wear in the cush drive is undetectable unless the whole unit is split.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726025
02/18/18 3:54 pm
02/18/18 3:54 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,660
Mississauga, Ontario.
A
Adam M. Offline
BritBike Forum member
Adam M.  Offline
BritBike Forum member
A
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,660
Mississauga, Ontario.
I found a cheap car voltmeter and installed it in the ammeter hole, gave me much more information what's going on with my charging system and saved me at list once from braking up on the side of the road with AGM battery going south in front of my eyes. I was still able to kill the lights, turn around and get home safely.
The voltmeter was a part of cheap car aftermarket 3 gauges unit sold with oil pressure and water temperature gauge in my Crappy Tire shop.
I believe they are sold in US also.

After reading your thread I have couple things to add as a past owner and rider of A65 to a new one :
- every new build of these old engines have to be started like Nick L. wrote - first ride it hard before faffing with the carbs, 40 t0 60 miles is necessary, change of oil and head retorque after this,
- simple, analogue electronic ignition saves you a lot o maintenance in the future,
- oil filter on the return oil line is essential to keep engine healthy for a longer time than 20k miles,
- 3 phase stator + regulator rectifier + later Lucas / Wipac front light with H4 bulbs gives you charging system and lights you don't have to worry about riding in a big town ( Like LA )
Have fun.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726907
02/26/18 10:15 pm
02/26/18 10:15 pm
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
I have put over 100 miles on the bike now....still get smoking and fouling of the plugs though. This morning I cleaned up the plugs, gapped them at .20" and went for a 20 mile ride to a 3 mile long hill. At the top of the hill I started to slightly notice a loss in power, the bike just didn't want to accelerate, as though power was down 20% or so. Turned around at the top and started down. I got the bike up to about 60mph and then let the engine slow the bike until my speed dropped to about 20 mph. Then I gave it a little throttle to get back up to 40mph. When I did this I noticed a decent amount of smoking for the first time on the trip. Within a mile or two the bike started to misfire a little and lose more power. It seemed as though the engine would catch once in a while but mostly I was at half power. It got me home though. I let the bike cool down and took out the plugs. Both fouled. The timing side was carbon and dry looking. The primary side was black, wet, and shiny. I took a wire brush to them and started it up. It was back to full power though still smoking (much more on the primary side). I then hooked up a leak own tester but only at 30lbs so I could listen for leaking air. Both sides resulted in air bubbles in the oil tank. I also noticed that when I turn the engine over by hand the loudest sound seems to be air escaping from the breather outlet by the drive chain. Is it normal to be that loud? Compression test is 125# cold. I checked the jets in my carbs and all are factory sizes. I don't have anything to measure the needle jet with but there is some sunlight between the jet and needle if I hold it up to the light. I replaced the regulator with a podtronics and now have a steadier needle that stays in the positive more than negative so that's some good news. Any recommendations???

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726916
02/26/18 11:47 pm
02/26/18 11:47 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
it sounds like you are running with chokes on, Do you have chokes fitted, you do know they are off when the wire is tight , on when it is slack? back to front from every other normal choke.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726917
02/26/18 11:51 pm
02/26/18 11:51 pm
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
No Chokes....That's why I looked at the needle jets but no way of knowing if they are good because I can't measure them. They do look ovaled though based on the light that comes through when I hold them up. Stuck in my mind between rings are the problem and get new pistons etc. or focus on carb/jets and EI to improve spark and fuel.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726921
02/27/18 12:18 am
02/27/18 12:18 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
needle jets are cheap fit new ones if the old ones have been around, they do wear. have you tried moving the needles down a clip to weaken?, costs nothing.
your primary side does not seem at all healthy. Sometimes if the carbs are out of synch the leading carb/ pot does all the work and the trailing carb/ pot will oil up.

Synching carbs has come up loads , search "brit bike forum carb synch" in google . As a lightning owner you must understand how to get this correct or your bike will not run well.For a quick and dirty test, not really a fix, go to the primary side carb throttle cable adjuster ( not the idle screw) take up a full turn of slack, go for a run , see what happens, if this pot was traialing before it will now be working a bit harder and the bike will feel better to ride, if it makes no difference at all put it back the way you found it , you may have bigger troubles. black smoke is rich mixture, blue is burning oil, if that helps.

my method of carb synch breaks down to ,after a run when warmed up fully, achieve a steady idle on each side , one pot disconnected ( plug removed, this is OK with points , but dodgy with EI if the spark stops/plug falls off the head)), set idle mix for max idle then screw back the throttle stop to a lowish 750 rpm idle, repeat visa versa, lower each screw an equal amount after both plugs are fitted ,it will tend to race a bit, 1/8 th tturn at a time back to 900 -1,000, the bike should now have an even steady idle with no fumbling. Now pull the filters off ( engine off!), open the throttle , both slides should lift exactly at the same time, there are tricks with drill bits on line but I use my fingers and have someone else slowly open the throttle, balance the slides by taking up slack cable on the lazy side. Thats it, you can go a step fruther with vac gauges and such but this gets you very near the ballpark. When done and finished throttles should slam shut with one click, if you hear two clicks then its out a good bit.
refit filters , and ride. this is a starting point , without balanced carbs jetting changes wont make a lot of sense.
I do hope for your sake thats all it needs. Definetly get new needle jets if they are at all suspect.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726923
02/27/18 12:30 am
02/27/18 12:30 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
OK. Will order jets now and follow your directions on the carb syncing. I know the carbs aren't set up perfectly but I did get the slides to open and close together. Hard to see what color the smoke is but seems gray. When you say "Sometimes if the carbs are out of synch the leading carb/ pot does all the work and the trailing carb/ pot will oil up." how does that happen? Vacuum pulling oil from rings???

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726945
02/27/18 9:53 am
02/27/18 9:53 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
The willing horse gets the work, the pot with the
larger throttle opening is doing the lions share of work, creating heat, the trailing side is doing a lot less , no heat = fouled plug.
.
I reccomend NGK B7 or B8 range plugs, How old are your ignition capacitors?, buy a new pair and fit them to remove another variable poor running when warm could be the caps breaking up, nexr run, leave the points cover off, when the bike starts missbehaving look for big orange sparks at the points, big sparks = dead caps.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726971
02/27/18 5:02 pm
02/27/18 5:02 pm
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
OK. That makes sense. The pot with the fouled plug was much cooler than the other side, even after riding for an hour or more I could rest my hand on it 2 minutes after stopping. The other side wasn't much hotter, 110C within a minute of stopping. The caps are unused but were sitting with the bike for 30 years. I have B8 and B6 plugs. I have B6's for my Vanagon but tried them in the BSA with the same result as B8. Mostly running B8. I will focus on balancing and needle jets then take it out for a ride and check the points.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726980
02/27/18 7:58 pm
02/27/18 7:58 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
30 year old caps, dearie me, you have a touching faith in short shelf life items, put them on eBay for a collector.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Allan Gill, Jon W. Whitley 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1