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Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724927
02/09/18 7:48 pm
02/09/18 7:48 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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if you are handy with a soldering iron you can make new petcock filters using brass mesh, otherwise what Tman says.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
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Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: gavin eisler] #724937
02/09/18 8:38 pm
02/09/18 8:38 pm
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triton thrasher Online content
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Originally Posted by gavin eisler
if you are handy with a soldering iron you can make new petcock filters using brass mesh, otherwise what Tman says.



Fuel tap and carb banjo gauzes get blocked and cause a roadside breakdown.

Inline filters generally don't.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724947
02/09/18 9:53 pm
02/09/18 9:53 pm
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los angeles
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J. Grant Offline OP
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The rings were on correctly and are not broken. There was oil in the cylinders though. The skirts of the pistons below the rings have vertical light scratches on them (like honing marks) that are new. Are the pistons directional and need to go in pointing in a certain direction?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724962
02/10/18 1:43 am
02/10/18 1:43 am
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I measured everything and here is what I have.

Cylinders both 2.951"

Pistons (original pistons) at the skirt - 2.943"

left side ring gaps

top - .021"
middle - .022"
bottom - .025"

right side ring gaps

top - .024"
middle - .025"
bottom - .025"

The ring gaps seem large. Could that have cause this, along with the too fine honing. They were new and are Hastings brand standard size. I can't remember what the gaps were when I installed the first time. not sure what to do now because if I bought new rings I would probably still have the same problem wouldn't I?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724983
02/10/18 8:43 am
02/10/18 8:43 am
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triton thrasher Online content
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8 thou clearance near the bottom of the piston skirt sounds like quite a lot on a 3” bore, but I’ve no A65 experience. It’s easy to get the measurements wrong.

The ring gaps are OK.


The vertical scratches are usually caused by a failure to clean the bores of honing grit.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725039
02/10/18 5:33 pm
02/10/18 5:33 pm
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los angeles
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Isn't the piston clearance divided by two, making mine 4 thou?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725044
02/10/18 5:58 pm
02/10/18 5:58 pm
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Nope.

Piston to bore clearance is the difference in diameter between bore and piston.


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Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725070
02/10/18 8:32 pm
02/10/18 8:32 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
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Piston direction , big cutaway goes to inlet valve , if both the same , not critical, usually if theres writing on the top it should be readable if the viewer is facing forward.
What TT says. Book clearance for new pistons, 4- 5 thou ( 0.0039" - 0.0054"), source 1970 manual. Piston size must be measured from front to back at bottom of skirt, side to side is less, pistons are oval not round.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725117
02/11/18 12:28 am
02/11/18 12:28 am
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I read up on this and will get a better tool to measure the pistons. Machinist OK'd them when I had the honing done but then again the honing was too fine. If the piston clearance is good I will hone it to 200 and put it back together. Should I use the same rings...only 10-15 minutes of run time on them. If they don't measure as good I will replace pistons ad rings with a 20 over set and get the barrels bored out and honed properly. Does this sound like a good plan? Any recommendations for a machinist near L.A. that is familiar with these motors.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725121
02/11/18 12:43 am
02/11/18 12:43 am
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if the clearance is around 8 thou you will get piston slap, rehoned bores to sub 200 grit will help the old rings bed in, otherwise its up to you ,if you want less mechanical noise you need better fitting pistons. last time I fitted new pistons and rings I had to file the rings end gaps to get the right fit, your ring gaps arent too big, but for a fresh job it all points to too much clearance, go to a different shop, preferably one that knows BSAs. if I was in the USA I would use Ed Valiket,( Ed V) he knows BSAs , let the postal service take the strain.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725137
02/11/18 4:15 am
02/11/18 4:15 am
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los angeles
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Did a lot of measuring tonight. Turns out that my calipers weren't quite long enough to measure the piston accurately. Got a micrometer and the skirt is 2.947 putting me at 4 thou. More careful measurements of the ring gap puts them all at 18-19 thou. Not sure what I did last time other than cheap feeler gauges and less lighting. I think I was measuring the feeler gauge that went into the gap but not necessarily all the way in and touching the cylinder wall. I think I am going to try a rough hone and put it back together and do a good break in run. It's free besides some time. If it doesn't work I'll send it out to be done.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725138
02/11/18 4:22 am
02/11/18 4:22 am
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150 grit rather than 200 IMHO.
HTH

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725152
02/11/18 9:14 am
02/11/18 9:14 am
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And wash the honing grit off with a sponge, soap and hot water, until the bore surface is sufficiently clean that it does not leave a black mark on a white paper tissue.

I don't put oil on the rings. Just enough WD40 or something on the bores to stop them rusting. A drop of oil on the front and back of each piston skirt.

Your oil system is already working and primed, isn't it? The instant the bike starts, get into gear and take off with a handful of throttle. Go for a couple of miles making it pull hard at over 3500 rpm, in bursts.

Then come home and re-torque the head and barrel base nuts and check valve clearances.


Amateur Loctite enthusiast.
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725871
02/17/18 1:29 am
02/17/18 1:29 am
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Update.....I took everything apart and had the cylinder honed with 150 grit. Put it back together and took it out for a spin (10 miles/20 minutes) and still smoking but less. I let it cool down and pulled the plugs expecting to see black shiny plugs like last time but they were just a matte dark grey/brown with some parts still clean. They looked like the bike was just running slightly rich. Last time when the original issue occurred I had oil in the cylinder when I put a q tip/cotton bud in there. This time it is totally dry just a slight dusting of black but the cotton was mostly white still. The engine ran pretty well but there was some hesitation and a small amount of sputtering at higher rpms. It got me thinking that I could have a problem with the ignition strength....still on the old points and coils that the bike sat with for 30 years. My ammeter was bouncing on the negative side and my spark looks blue/orange and not that strong. Also the timing mark seems to jump around a bit. When I rev from idle to 3000 rpm the advance hits almost all at once at about 2500 rpm rather than climbing smoothly as the revs increase.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725886
02/17/18 6:00 am
02/17/18 6:00 am
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advance mechanism was not sticky and I put a little grease on it. Battery voltage was 12.9 - 13.2 at 3.5k. I tested the 2 wires from the alternator and got 38v AC with no load. Battery by itself was 13.7v. Will try riding more before it comes apart again.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725899
02/17/18 11:48 am
02/17/18 11:48 am
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Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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Electronic ignition is a good thing for this model, the ignition cam can wobble if there is wear on the idler pinion bush, this gives erratic timing. if the wrong method is used to extract the AR mech ,ie, clouting sideways to free the taper , makes this even worse, the AR mech is meant to be pushed off using the internal thread.
i had a load of trouble with my 68 stock ignition , all cured by EI, if you do go for EI get 6 volt coils as well, EI is not affected by idler pinion bush wear..
Have you still got the original ignition condensers/caps,? , if so , change them for new, these are service items and may explain your orange sparks, the sure sign these are failing is big sparks at the points when running. good job on the bores, have fun.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725973
02/18/18 4:59 am
02/18/18 4:59 am
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Posts: 30
los angeles
J
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Took it out for another 20 minutes and the smoking has subsided quite a bit so I'll keep doing that and hopefully all will be well. One quick off-topic question....is there anything to know about shifting? Mine shifts well up and down through the gears but I did have one grinding incident when I stopped with the clutch in and the bike in third. When I downshifted at a stop from 2nd to first it crunched. Still seems to be running a bit rich and my ammeter is now generally in the negative range so will have to check that and the ignition. Still original condensers that are at least 40 years old but I will probably change to EI rather than replace stock ignition parts. I had so much fun riding it today so thank you top everyone for all the advice and help to get me going again.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #725994
02/18/18 8:35 am
02/18/18 8:35 am
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Sydney Australia
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You either shift with neither shaft moving ( engine oo & stationary ) or both shafts turning, rolling with the engine running.
Any other change will crunch or grind ( if going too fast to mesh ).
BSA boxes tend to be a little on the slow shifting wise so you just put light pressure on the pedal and when all is in sync it will just drop into gear.
Try to find neutral while rolling up to the stop and it will be easy.
Trying to find it sitting at eh lights holding the clutch in and you will wonder who stole it.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726009
02/18/18 11:01 am
02/18/18 11:01 am
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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The ammeter readings are not a lot of help, best check of charging system is to fit a voltmeter across the battery terminals, rev the motor, volts should rise with revs, and plateau about 14 - 15 volts over 3, 000 revs. Below 3,000 revs the ammeter may well read a -, and balance up to zero after that, you will only see big + readings when battery voltage is a bit low and the revs are up, normally the needle will hover somewhere around zero. Ammeters are a bit of a joke, they swing with bike vibes and dont tell you much useful info, a voltmeter, LED indicator is a More useful tool, these are available and will fit the idiot light holes in the lamp bucket, very easy to wire in.

+1 for Trevors info on gear change. Make sure the clutch is set up properly, with the bar end adjuster fully slack, remove the inspection plug centre of primary clutch end, undo the pushrod adjuster locknut and make sure there is 1/4 to 1/2 turn of slack before the centre screw touches the push rod. Lube the clutch cable, use ATF in the primary it helps prevent plate sticking. Change this oil regularly. The next step involves removing the prim outer, make sure the clutch releases evenly ,any wobble in the plates when withdrawn will give poor gear changes and make it hard to find neutral, tune out clutch wobble by adjusting clutch springs. A clutch refresh involves more than new plates, the centre cush drive also wears, this is often neglected. Wear in the cush drive is undetectable unless the whole unit is split.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726025
02/18/18 3:54 pm
02/18/18 3:54 pm
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,660
Mississauga, Ontario.
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I found a cheap car voltmeter and installed it in the ammeter hole, gave me much more information what's going on with my charging system and saved me at list once from braking up on the side of the road with AGM battery going south in front of my eyes. I was still able to kill the lights, turn around and get home safely.
The voltmeter was a part of cheap car aftermarket 3 gauges unit sold with oil pressure and water temperature gauge in my Crappy Tire shop.
I believe they are sold in US also.

After reading your thread I have couple things to add as a past owner and rider of A65 to a new one :
- every new build of these old engines have to be started like Nick L. wrote - first ride it hard before faffing with the carbs, 40 t0 60 miles is necessary, change of oil and head retorque after this,
- simple, analogue electronic ignition saves you a lot o maintenance in the future,
- oil filter on the return oil line is essential to keep engine healthy for a longer time than 20k miles,
- 3 phase stator + regulator rectifier + later Lucas / Wipac front light with H4 bulbs gives you charging system and lights you don't have to worry about riding in a big town ( Like LA )
Have fun.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726907
02/26/18 10:15 pm
02/26/18 10:15 pm
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Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
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los angeles
I have put over 100 miles on the bike now....still get smoking and fouling of the plugs though. This morning I cleaned up the plugs, gapped them at .20" and went for a 20 mile ride to a 3 mile long hill. At the top of the hill I started to slightly notice a loss in power, the bike just didn't want to accelerate, as though power was down 20% or so. Turned around at the top and started down. I got the bike up to about 60mph and then let the engine slow the bike until my speed dropped to about 20 mph. Then I gave it a little throttle to get back up to 40mph. When I did this I noticed a decent amount of smoking for the first time on the trip. Within a mile or two the bike started to misfire a little and lose more power. It seemed as though the engine would catch once in a while but mostly I was at half power. It got me home though. I let the bike cool down and took out the plugs. Both fouled. The timing side was carbon and dry looking. The primary side was black, wet, and shiny. I took a wire brush to them and started it up. It was back to full power though still smoking (much more on the primary side). I then hooked up a leak own tester but only at 30lbs so I could listen for leaking air. Both sides resulted in air bubbles in the oil tank. I also noticed that when I turn the engine over by hand the loudest sound seems to be air escaping from the breather outlet by the drive chain. Is it normal to be that loud? Compression test is 125# cold. I checked the jets in my carbs and all are factory sizes. I don't have anything to measure the needle jet with but there is some sunlight between the jet and needle if I hold it up to the light. I replaced the regulator with a podtronics and now have a steadier needle that stays in the positive more than negative so that's some good news. Any recommendations???

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726916
02/26/18 11:47 pm
02/26/18 11:47 pm
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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it sounds like you are running with chokes on, Do you have chokes fitted, you do know they are off when the wire is tight , on when it is slack? back to front from every other normal choke.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726917
02/26/18 11:51 pm
02/26/18 11:51 pm
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Posts: 30
los angeles
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J. Grant Offline OP
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No Chokes....That's why I looked at the needle jets but no way of knowing if they are good because I can't measure them. They do look ovaled though based on the light that comes through when I hold them up. Stuck in my mind between rings are the problem and get new pistons etc. or focus on carb/jets and EI to improve spark and fuel.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726921
02/27/18 12:18 am
02/27/18 12:18 am
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Posts: 3,987
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
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needle jets are cheap fit new ones if the old ones have been around, they do wear. have you tried moving the needles down a clip to weaken?, costs nothing.
your primary side does not seem at all healthy. Sometimes if the carbs are out of synch the leading carb/ pot does all the work and the trailing carb/ pot will oil up.

Synching carbs has come up loads , search "brit bike forum carb synch" in google . As a lightning owner you must understand how to get this correct or your bike will not run well.For a quick and dirty test, not really a fix, go to the primary side carb throttle cable adjuster ( not the idle screw) take up a full turn of slack, go for a run , see what happens, if this pot was traialing before it will now be working a bit harder and the bike will feel better to ride, if it makes no difference at all put it back the way you found it , you may have bigger troubles. black smoke is rich mixture, blue is burning oil, if that helps.

my method of carb synch breaks down to ,after a run when warmed up fully, achieve a steady idle on each side , one pot disconnected ( plug removed, this is OK with points , but dodgy with EI if the spark stops/plug falls off the head)), set idle mix for max idle then screw back the throttle stop to a lowish 750 rpm idle, repeat visa versa, lower each screw an equal amount after both plugs are fitted ,it will tend to race a bit, 1/8 th tturn at a time back to 900 -1,000, the bike should now have an even steady idle with no fumbling. Now pull the filters off ( engine off!), open the throttle , both slides should lift exactly at the same time, there are tricks with drill bits on line but I use my fingers and have someone else slowly open the throttle, balance the slides by taking up slack cable on the lazy side. Thats it, you can go a step fruther with vac gauges and such but this gets you very near the ballpark. When done and finished throttles should slam shut with one click, if you hear two clicks then its out a good bit.
refit filters , and ride. this is a starting point , without balanced carbs jetting changes wont make a lot of sense.
I do hope for your sake thats all it needs. Definetly get new needle jets if they are at all suspect.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #726923
02/27/18 12:30 am
02/27/18 12:30 am
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Posts: 30
los angeles
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los angeles
OK. Will order jets now and follow your directions on the carb syncing. I know the carbs aren't set up perfectly but I did get the slides to open and close together. Hard to see what color the smoke is but seems gray. When you say "Sometimes if the carbs are out of synch the leading carb/ pot does all the work and the trailing carb/ pot will oil up." how does that happen? Vacuum pulling oil from rings???

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