BritBike Forum logo
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor

BritBike Sponsor
BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor BritBike Sponsor
Jwood & co JRC Engineering dealers Jwood & co
Home | Sponsors, Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons, "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Member Spotlight
Posts: 57
Joined: September 2007
Show All Member Profiles 
Shout Box
Search eBay for motorcycle parts in following countries
Australia, Canada, France, Holland, Italy, United Kingdom, USA
Random Gallery photo
Who's Online Now
36 registered members (AngloBike), 239 guests, and 402 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
PreunitPeter, Tcycles, Metalguru, hanscarlsson, BSADon
10221 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Stuart 115
Lannis 104
NickL 73
Popular Topics(Views)
583,025 mail-order LSR
Forum Statistics
Forums34
Topics66,867
Posts648,663
Members10,221
Most Online3,995
Feb 13th, 2017
Like BritBike.com on Facebook

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Start up/oil flow questions #724453
02/06/18 3:46 am
02/06/18 3:46 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
Tonight I fired up my 68 Lightning.....first time running in 30 years. The engine was rebuilt to stock specs with points and the AMAL carbs. I kicked over the engine about 40 times with no plugs and then fired it up for about 5 seconds. Then I thought about the oil flow and that I should be checking to see if there is oil coming back into the tank. What is the procedure for this? Can I look in the tank and see oil flowing as soon as the engine starts? Should I see oil flowing back to the tank if I remove the plugs and just kick over the engine?

Support your #1 BSA Forum and our favorite sponsors

Check out BSA on e-bay: BSA Parts in UK, BSA Motorcycles in UK, BSA Parts in North America, BSA Motorcycles in North America

 
 
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724463
02/06/18 7:52 am
02/06/18 7:52 am
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,293
Scotland
kommando Online content
BritBike Forum member
kommando  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 9,293
Scotland
Can I look in the tank and see oil flowing as soon as the engine starts?

Yes

Should I see oil flowing back to the tank if I remove the plugs and just kick over the engine?


Takes a 100 or so kicks

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724525
02/06/18 6:09 pm
02/06/18 6:09 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,049
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Offline

Parts Dealer
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,049
Lancaster, California
Are the lines hooked up properly? If you are not sure, disconnect the pipes, squirt some oil in each pipe and kick the engine over. The pipe that "spits" the oil is the return. If all is well you could prime the engine

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724530
02/06/18 6:40 pm
02/06/18 6:40 pm
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
There are 3 lines coming from the engine. The smallest line goes to the rockers, the medium one (I think the return) goes to the bottom of the tank in the center. The largest line goes to the tank outlet near the drain plug. What do I look for in the tank? Will there be a clear oil stream coming from that bent pipe just inside the tank or will I have to look down to the bottom to see any movement? I have never even seen this or any other bike with an oil tank like this running before and I don't have an oil pressure gauge to tell me all is OK. What is the standard process for starting after a rebuild? Should I keep kicking it over until oil flows or should I start it and check? If starting how long do I wait before shutting off if I don't see oil flow?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724536
02/06/18 6:53 pm
02/06/18 6:53 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,049
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Offline

Parts Dealer
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,049
Lancaster, California
Should see a nice stream of oil. It has a rotary pump so it should be consistent. Did you put oil in the crankcase before you put the barrel on? Did you fill the sludge trap with oil as well? 5 seconds won't do any harm. I would start it again and monitor the oil tank.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724540
02/06/18 7:06 pm
02/06/18 7:06 pm
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
I put 8oz of oil in the crankcase but didn't fill the sludge trap. I'll give it a go later today when i get home. Thanks.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724553
02/06/18 8:56 pm
02/06/18 8:56 pm
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,049
Lancaster, California
C.B.S Offline

Parts Dealer
C.B.S  Offline

Parts Dealer
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,049
Lancaster, California
Originally Posted by J. Grant
I put 8oz of oil in the crankcase but didn't fill the sludge trap. I'll give it a go later today when i get home. Thanks.



Let us know how it goes. Cheers

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724557
02/06/18 9:48 pm
02/06/18 9:48 pm
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 562
Ewing. NJ
E
edunham Offline
BritBike Forum member
edunham  Offline
BritBike Forum member
E
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 562
Ewing. NJ
Do the check to see if you have the oil lines hooked up correctly. On first startup, it could take 15-20 seconds before oil starts spurting out the tube in the oil tank. You will be able to see it and it will be the longest 15-20 seconds you have ever experienced.

Ed from NJ

P.S. It doesn't hurt to fill both the feed and return lines with a pressure oil pump to ensure you do not have any air bubbles in the lines.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724569
02/06/18 11:26 pm
02/06/18 11:26 pm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 749
Farnham, Surrey, UK
gunner Offline
BritBike Forum member
gunner  Offline
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 749
Farnham, Surrey, UK
Ideally you should prime the oil pump via the inlet oil feed pipe as suggested by edunham above, this can easily be achieved by using a hand type oil pump with flexible spout inserted into the rubber inlet pipe. Pump oil in until its full and you feed resistance, then connect the feed pipe back to the oil tank.

Its also worthwhile feeding the rockers using the same method as above and additionally remove the rocker cover and pour 1/2 a pint of oil over the rockers and valves. Some of this oil should find its way down to the cam followers and help lube the camshaft additionally some will drain into the sump and be picked up by the oil scavenge.

As mentioned, you should see oil spurting back into the oil tank after a short time, if you have a return oil filter fitted it may take longer as the filter needs to fill.

Last edited by gunner; 02/06/18 11:27 pm.

1968 A65 Firebird
1967 B44 Shooting Star
1972 Norton Commando
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724573
02/06/18 11:41 pm
02/06/18 11:41 pm
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
I have oil flow. I now have to time with a strobe light and adjust the carbs. Will a regular strobe light work with the positive ground?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724576
02/06/18 11:57 pm
02/06/18 11:57 pm
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,794
Comox BC Canada
G
Gordo in Comox Offline
BritBike Forum member
Gordo in Comox  Offline
BritBike Forum member
G
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 2,794
Comox BC Canada
I always use a second separate battery for the strobe light so as not to confuse it by using the bike battery.

Gordo


Without frequent roadside repairs there is no fun in riding!
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724630
02/07/18 12:32 pm
02/07/18 12:32 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
When you observe the oil return flow back to the tank dont be surprised if it starts to spurt rather than continuously flow after about a minute. The return gears are twice the size of the feed, ie it empties faster than it fills, once the sump clears the oil flow back to the tank becomes intermittent, this is correct.

When you use the strobe a second pair of hands is very useful, at max advance around 4K the bike will want to walk backwards on its stand, one pair of hands for bars and throttle makes this a lot easier, the other pair uses the strobe and tweaks ignition to suit. it helps if the strobe marks are highlighted with typing correction fluid, and the workshop doors are closed lights off, background brightness makes the strobe hard to read.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724714
02/08/18 1:37 am
02/08/18 1:37 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
The bike starts easily and at high rpm the timing pin and mark lines up. Oil flow is good. After it warms up for 10-15 seconds the exhaust gets really smoky. seems whitish when idling and if I give it some gas it goes blackish. I adjusted the mixture and idle screws but without changing the smoking. The idle changed when I adjusted the screws though. I ran it for 5 minutes or more hoping it was the oil left over from the rebuild but that should have burnt off by now. After the engine cooled I checked the exhaust and found that it was really sooty (new pipes). Not oily. Plugs are the same. NGK BS8. Sooty but not oily. Could it be poor spark or just carbs bad. I rebuilt with an AMAL kit but could it be float adjustment or wrong jetting? Should I start a new thread?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724726
02/08/18 6:54 am
02/08/18 6:54 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,696
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
BritBike Forum member
BSA_WM20  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,696
Sydney Australia
Yes it would be good to start a new thread.

If you have not bored the engine of fitted new rings, don't worry about it for now.
Take it for a few runs around the block and see what it is like after an hour or so running.
Good chance the rings have gummed up a little or could even be stuck in a groove.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: BSA_WM20] #724727
02/08/18 7:03 am
02/08/18 7:03 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
I do have new rings. When I switched the bike off there was vapor coming out of the carbs which made me thing it was running rich rather than oil getting past the rings. The soot seems really dry too. Checked float level and that was ok. one carb had the needle jet on the middle groove rather than the top one so I fixed that. I tried to start it again but fuel wouldn't flow to the carb. It would come out of the tank with the hose removed but wouldn't flow through the hose to carb. Decided to call it a day.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724737
02/08/18 11:37 am
02/08/18 11:37 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
Check the filters in the float bowl banjos, they are probably blocked.
Are chokes fitted? If so do you know that the chokes are on when the lever is NOT pulling the cable, unlike every other choke in the world, amals are arsey facey, tight cable choke OFF.
Dont worry about vapour coming out of the carb, this is OK, just means it stopped with the inlet valve open.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724738
02/08/18 11:47 am
02/08/18 11:47 am
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,696
Sydney Australia
B
BSA_WM20 Offline
BritBike Forum member
BSA_WM20  Offline
BritBike Forum member
B
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,696
Sydney Australia
If you have new rings, and hopefully gave the bore a quick hone, stop faffing around and go do a dozen laps of the block.
Some wide open throttle some heavy engine breaking to get those rings bedded in.
Then you can worry about the finner points of tuning.
Sitting in your shed at idle forever & a day will just glaze the bores and then you will be fiddleing with the carb for the next 1000 miles.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: BSA_WM20] #724776
02/08/18 6:02 pm
02/08/18 6:02 pm
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 467
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
N
nert Offline
BritBike Forum member
nert  Offline
BritBike Forum member
N
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 467
just a guy from Jersey [Hopewe...
Be careful not to overheat the engine. The air cooled engine relies on air flow to keep it cool. Stationary, setting timing, fooling with carb can quickly cause the engine to overheat.


keep your "oddies" lubricated, and carry a dime
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724830
02/09/18 1:40 am
02/09/18 1:40 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
Took it out for 15 minutes around the neighborhood. The smoke didn't get worse, was maybe a little better, especially the left pipe. It seemed to pull well but there was a little backfiring when I revved the engine with the bike standing still after the ride so I will recheck timing and valve adjustment. I have fuel filters in the line from the carbs to the tank and they don't fill much. I think that may be some of the problem with the backfiring. On the timing should I strobe the stator mark to the pin at full advance (~3000 rpm) or should I retard the timing slightly to account for crappy fuel nowadays?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724831
02/09/18 1:42 am
02/09/18 1:42 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
I checked the crank case for wet sumping and there was about 120cc's in there. I think that is ok?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724837
02/09/18 3:00 am
02/09/18 3:00 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
Remove the in line fuel filters they are unnecessary, the taps have filters as do the banjos, adding a 3 rd filter achieves very little except for adding bulk.
if the PO fitted in line filters its likely the gauze strainers at the taps have been damaged, or are missing entirely.

120cc s is fine,

if the pipes are not sealed well at the head this will cause backfiring, as will poor fitting silencers. To seal the headers, remove, clean port and header to bare metal and glue in with ordinary builders silicone, for pipe to silencer use exhaust paste.
Do you have chokes fitted? Are here two cables into the top of each carb, and a small lever on the bars?


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724847
02/09/18 4:49 am
02/09/18 4:49 am
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
The petcocks are missing the strainers so I have in line filters. I have no chokes but the hole is plugged. I was running 10/30 oil but bought some 40w tonight....maybe thicker oil will help?

I removed the plugs after my ride and found the right one was totally black and oily. I think this may have been the reason for the backfiring. My plan now is to clean the plugs, change oil, check valves and timing and then ride it. It seems as tough the main problem is smoke and is caused by the rings and the may or may not bed in properly. Does that sound reasonable and if so how long should I give it before I give up and redo the rings? If it's possible to do the job with the engine in place?? it shouldn't take too long.

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724867
02/09/18 11:06 am
02/09/18 11:06 am
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Online content
BritBike Forum member
gavin eisler  Online Content
BritBike Forum member
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 3,802
argyll. scotland, uk
I think you may have broken or miss installed the rings, motor can stay in the frame , but its a complete top end strip.
When the barrels were fitted to the pistons , did you check the ring gaps first? rings can be fitted up side down.
Maybe if you used a lot of oil on assembly thats what caused the fouling, if it persists after cleaning the plugs , , then its strip down time.
I prefer to fit rings with only a light amount of oil on the bores, if large quantities are used it prevents or delays proper break in, correct honing grit for bores should be no finer than 200 grit, the factory finish was about 180, the honing should leave a 45 degree cross hatch pattern.
10/30 is very thin ( it wont have done any harm), I break in with 10 /40 cheap stuff, then go to 20/50 after the first change at 50 miles or so.
Petrol taps can be repaired by soldering in new gauzes.
A fresh rebuilt motor may smoke for a few secs on first start up, if it persists then something is wrong.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724907
02/09/18 6:25 pm
02/09/18 6:25 pm
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
J
J. Grant Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J. Grant  Offline OP
BritBike Forum member
J
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 30
los angeles
I'm going to tear it down again. I think the honing was way too fine. The cross hatching was almost invisible compared to what I would see on freshly honed VW cylinders but I trusted the machinist. Is there a source for the petcock screens or do I make them up myself?

Re: Start up/oil flow questions [Re: J. Grant] #724924
02/09/18 7:40 pm
02/09/18 7:40 pm
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,302
New Jersey USA
Tridentman Offline

BritBike Forum member
Tridentman  Offline

BritBike Forum member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,302
New Jersey USA
This suggestion is going to get me shouted at.
But these old Brit bikes are pretty crude pieces of engineering,
."In the day" --in the 60s when I started riding and had no money the accepted way of solving your problem was to get a piece of emery paper of about 150 grit and push it up and down the bore while turning it so that you got a cross hatch of about 45 degrees.
Make it rough---Triumph apprentices were told that if you couldn't strike a match off the bore then it was too smooth.
Then wash it thoroughly in warm soapy water x times---where x is a lot more than you think necessary.
Dry assemble--just one drop of oil on each thrust face of the piston.
Once you start it then make the engine work on and off using the gears.
When racing in the 60s we would "run in" ("break in" for US readers) a new bore in just a couple of laps.
Don't be too mamby pamby with these motors--they respect a tough hard approach.
HTH

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Allan Gill, Jon W. Whitley 


Home | Sponsors | Newsletter | Regalia | Calendar | Bike Project | BritBike Museum | Spiders Cartoons | "OLD" BritBike Forum | DVD- Manuals & Parts books | BritBike Stickers & Decals
Upgrade to: Premium Membership | Premium Life Membership | Vendor Membership | Site Sponsor Membership
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.1.1