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1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme #724451
02/06/18 3:36 am
02/06/18 3:36 am
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England
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ferretjuggler Offline OP
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Apologies for the seemingly incessant stream of dumb questions.
Can someone please tell me the correct colour of the red home and general export OIF twins.

I'm referring to the ones featured in the sales brochures with the four gallon "bread bin" tanks.

I've tried a few sources and I keep getting green/white which I know was the colour scheme on the small (US) export tanks.

One possibility is "Firebird Red" but I can't find any confirmation of this.

Once I've found out the original colour, the next step is to find a modern day equivalent.

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Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724475
02/06/18 12:25 pm
02/06/18 12:25 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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Roy Bacons book has an appendix on colours.
Disclaimer , the only OIF A65s I have seen have been bronze or green.
Red is not listed in RBs book for 72 A65 T only Etruscan Bronze (322) , 72 A65 L models were Firebird Red (261).


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724537
02/06/18 6:56 pm
02/06/18 6:56 pm
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ferretjuggler Offline OP
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Apologies.
I've just checked all my books and it is indeed #322 Etruscan Bronze.
The A65T in the publicity photos looks red but on closer inspection it's a different colour to the A65L on the same sheet.
Maybe the lighting made it appear more red than bronze, or maybe it was the printers.

So now I need to track down a modern car equivalent to Etruscan Bronze.

Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724591
02/07/18 2:43 am
02/07/18 2:43 am
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Sydney Australia
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According to Brad Jones here were some non catalogue all red tanks made and some of these have turned up as NOS parts in the USA.
Some time back there were photos posted here of solid colour tanks fitted from new to 72 models in France that were also not catalogue finishes.
It is most likely all of the proposed tank colour schemes for the 72 season would have been applied to bikes then photographed before the final colours were decided upon.
Considering the state of play it is highly likely that these tanks never got resprayed catalogue colours before the plant & all parts therein were in the hands of the liquidators.

There were also solid colour small tanks and two colour large tanks although none were supposed to have gone into production.
Similar story with the stick on rubber knee grips which again war not supposed to have been produced.
However they are out there.
Weather they were dealer additions or factory special finishes or escapees from the factory post production is still some what of a mystery.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724595
02/07/18 3:33 am
02/07/18 3:33 am
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ferretjuggler Offline OP
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I thought that the rubber knee grips were a retrofit mod from the 1973 Triumph range, which got rid of a lot of the Umberslade styling and replaced it with more traditional Triumph styled parts.

I only realised today that Etruscan Bronze is a different colour to the bronze colour used on the '71 Lightnings and Firebirds.

I also found a DuPont colour mixing "recipe " for 100% accurate Etruscan Bronze.
TBH I'm still undecided about my final choice

Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724599
02/07/18 4:38 am
02/07/18 4:38 am
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It is your bike.
So paint it a colour that you enjoy looking at.
It will not be worth 1 ยข more repainted any colour no matter what effort you went to to get a correct original finish.
Also remember that none of the painted parts can be exact colour matches because that is the way most left the factory.

Considering all of the great colours BSA rejected one has to wonder why they settled on that one which is not a good colour to start with.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724627
02/07/18 11:59 am
02/07/18 11:59 am
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argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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I am not fussy about paint, there are elements of the OIF stock schemes I dont like, particularly the same colour on the air boxes as the side panels. and the colours chosen.
For practical reasons I painted the air box inner silver , this makes for a brighter electrics bay so stuff is not lost in the gloom, I picked black for the air box lids to make them look smaller ( trompe ll'oil) and more like an earlier pre unit scheme, leaving the rear panels to match the tank which is a red that I like. As for the dove grey frame! what were they thinking? i read somewhere that the original plan was for nickel plate , the dove grey was used because it was cheaper.
Any way, as Trevor says , I would take Roy Bacons info with a pinch of salt, and paint it with whatever takes your fancy. Every time I see a dove grey frame i wonder about the hours it must take to keep clean, I would rather ride my bike.


71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
Cagiva Raptor 650
MZ TS 250
The poster formerly known as Pod
Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724720
02/08/18 3:12 am
02/08/18 3:12 am
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England
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ferretjuggler Offline OP
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Yes I think that you are right.
It's going to be a bike for riding, I'm building it for my benefit not someone looking for an investment opportunity.
So no desperate need to confirm to the factory colour scheme.
I'm quite fond of painted mudguards on a British bike - so much easier and cheaper to repair than chrome.
But painted mudguards and black side panels was traditionally a Triumph thing.
I'm still undecided.
One thing to consider is that I also have a small export tank which I might want to try out.
I was thinking that unlike the rest of the bike, the paintwork was an area where I could push on and make progress.

Now I'm undecided again.
Damn.

Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724725
02/08/18 6:46 am
02/08/18 6:46 am
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We got a lot of new 1973 models ( 1971 tarted up ) down here because Australia is so far away no one would know the factory had shut down.
There was "new" 1974 & 1975 as well, same finish with different decals.
Some contention as to weaather they were resprayed O/ S or locally as they seemed to have been recalled from other countries .
However I have always favoured a factory job as internally there was some late 72 bits.
The other thing is they were supplied in the same finish & colours as the then current Commandos, just with fewer coats of coloured lacquer over the silver base coat.
They really looked good.
Mine was green & we have 2 other of the same green in the club , there was also white which took on a pearl appearance when sprayed over the silver base, Shanes was that colour.
The blue probably looked the best and the red was a few shades lighter than the 1970 A65L red.

Our past president had one that was bright lime green, airbrushed over with about 20 coats of black so the center of each pannel was slightly lighter than British Racing green and then the paint got darker to become a greeny black on all of the creases,
Gold BSA decals on the side and some gold pinlinning , looked stunning, till he tried to take a lamp pole as a pillion passenger.
IF I can dig up some pickies I will try to post them.

As ou have both sized tanks, swap them over a few times without doing anythig to the engine.
You will then realise just how much noise the big tank isolates from the rider.
We used to call the small tanks "worry cans".
In either case make sure the front strap is fitted as they do tend to split at the rear tunnel seam.
The square hole was not a good idea.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: BSA_WM20] #724729
02/08/18 8:40 am
02/08/18 8:40 am
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,179
Sydney, Oz
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Shane in Oz Online content
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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
We got a lot of new 1973 models ( 1971 tarted up ) down here because Australia is so far away no one would know the factory had shut down.
There was "new" 1974 & 1975 as well, same finish with different decals.
Some contention as to weaather they were resprayed O/ S or locally as they seemed to have been recalled from other countries .
However I have always favoured a factory job as internally there was some late 72 bits.

I was chatting to Ron and Alan Keed (the Sydney motorcycle painters in the 1970s) some years ago when they were respraying my "1973" (actually an early 1972 model year machine with a German compliance plate) back to the candy silver, and Ron mentioned that they used to get ute loads of tinware from the NSW distributor to respray. He confirmed that it was the same silver that they used on Commandos, with less coats.
I doubt that they painted bikes for other states, but there's a fair chance that all of the "non-standard" NSW-delivered OIF A65s were resprayed by them.

That then gets back to the old "what is original?" question. What's in the catalogue, how it left the factory, how it left the distributor to how it left the dealer?

Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724739
02/08/18 11:51 am
02/08/18 11:51 am
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It is a funny thing.
paint your bike a custom colour an most who see it will tell how good it looks
paint ou bike original colours and most will tell you how wrong it looks


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Trevor
Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: BSA_WM20] #724744
02/08/18 1:36 pm
02/08/18 1:36 pm
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 5,008
Rotherham - S. Yorkshire
Allan Gill Offline

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Originally Posted by BSA_WM20
It is a funny thing.
paint your bike a custom colour an most who see it will tell how good it looks
paint ou bike original colours and most will tell you how wrong it looks



Yeah thats true,

One thing to add to an earlier post about catalogues is that what was in the catalogue didn't mean is what rolled out of the factory... A perfect example is the 1968 Firebird... Its true colour is solid Peony red on the tank and side panels.... If you looke at the catalogue it is a brighter red(if not orange) with the white butterfly, like the spitfire tank. A lot of resotrations emulate the catalogue (whilst it looks nice, isn't factory) but look again at the photo and things like fuel pipes and cables are missing wink


As for the OIF, I like the catalogue image of the 1971 Thunderbolt, dove grey frame and 2 tone green tank, whether any were produced like this I don't know.... But I'd like to build one in that style.


beerchug
Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724765
02/08/18 3:32 pm
02/08/18 3:32 pm
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England
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ferretjuggler Offline OP
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According to Brad Jones, the '71 range was never intended to have dove grey frames.
The intended finish was some sort of metallic silver colour which apparently attracted very favourable comment from those invited to test ride the bikes.

I can only assume that the painting process would have been different from the standard stove enamelling.
This would have meant an extra investment in new facilities and an increase in the cost of every motorcycle.

I suspect that someone high up vetoed the new finish on grounds of cost.
It would have been better to dump the whole idea at this point, but an opportunity for another dreadful mistake was presenting itself.
So by changing the order from black stove enamel to dove grey, they could have trendy looking frames at no extra cost.
Have you noticed the similarity between dove grey and the colour of filing cabinets and changing room lockers ?

Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724788
02/08/18 7:03 pm
02/08/18 7:03 pm
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gastonia nc
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painted calvin's 72 with same burnt orange metallic as Honda Element boxy little van thing...Citrus Fire Metallic


[Linked Image]


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1979 Chevrolet Camaro Berlinetta
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Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724813
02/08/18 10:13 pm
02/08/18 10:13 pm
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Posts: 3,118
Arlington, Massachusetts, USA
kurt fischer Offline

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^^ Looks great in burnt orange metallic.

I had considered going with the T65 scheme on my Home Market tank, I like the way it follows the tank contours:

[Linked Image]


But instead of spending on a pro paint job, I did it myself with VHT engine enamel, supposed to be fuel and oil resistant. I think the tank has a nice shape that really doesn't need a paint design, a solid color looks good to me. And the "Titanium" shade goes with the overall dull look of my bike:

[Linked Image]


Kurt
1968-70-71 Triumph TR6R Bitsa - 1969 Triumph TR6R - 1971 BSA A65L - 1973 Triumph TR5T
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Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724818
02/08/18 10:33 pm
02/08/18 10:33 pm
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,119
argyll. scotland, uk
gavin eisler Offline
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[Linked Image]

A long time ago it had the T65 scheme.
[Linked Image]

Last edited by gavin eisler; 02/08/18 10:37 pm.

71 Devimead A65 750
56 Norbsa 68 Longstroke A65
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Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724819
02/08/18 10:44 pm
02/08/18 10:44 pm
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Sydney Australia
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Originally Posted by ferretjuggler
According to Brad Jones, the '71 range was never intended to have dove grey frames.
The intended finish was some sort of metallic silver colour which apparently attracted very favourable comment from those invited to test ride the bikes.

I can only assume that the painting process would have been different from the standard stove enamelling.
This would have meant an extra investment in new facilities and an increase in the cost of every motorcycle.

I suspect that someone high up vetoed the new finish on grounds of cost.
It would have been better to dump the whole idea at this point, but an opportunity for another dreadful mistake was presenting itself.
So by changing the order from black stove enamel to dove grey, they could have trendy looking frames at no extra cost.
Have you noticed the similarity between dove grey and the colour of filing cabinets and changing room lockers ?



It is simple case of a designer specifing a finish that the factory could not produce .
The finish Mettam specified which on the preproduction bikes was done by an external company was an electrostatic paint with a lot of fine ground metal in it so it looked very much like real nickle plate.
BSA dipped their frames and Mettam knew this yet he still designed a frame that needed to be painted with equipment BSA did not have via a process the BSA had never used.
This is not the actions of a responsible factory designer who should design bikes that the factory could make with the equipment & expertise they already have.
It smells very funny & one might ask if Mettam had an interest in the company that BSA would have to pay to get the frames painted externally.

Dip tanks require an enoromus vo;ume of slow drying paint so Cave found the closest thing he could at a price BSA could afford that was available when required.
From what a lot of "Journalist" wrote one would think he walked down to the local Paint & Paper, leaned across the counter and asked, 'what you got thats real cheap'.
Mettan threw up designs like BSA had an endless supply of money ( that could of been in his brief for all we know )
Cave had to make sure there was enough money available to pay the suppliers and wages.
Thus Mettam thought Cave was deliberately trying to sabotage his designs and Cave thought Mettam was trying to make a name for himself at the cost of sending BSA broke.
Remember that they were already overpriced compared to Japanese motorcycles so adding a lot of extra cost to something like the frame was never going to happen.
Without some one senior in the middle acing as referee there was always going to be conflicts and blame shifting.

Mettam was the brilliant young designer and no one can argue about his styles being advanced and passing the test of time.
HE was also the one whose name was heaviestly connected to the bikes so had the most to loose, thus he was very vocal in putting blame where he thought it should lie.
Cave was the typical conservative manager, 110% company loyal so kept most of his critisms internal .
Thus what we got was very one sided reporting with Mettam venting at every opportunity ( to salvage his reputation ) with very little from the other side.
Even Brad Jones' publications are very one sided.

Those of you with any manufacturing experience should be able to appreciate just how disruptive & difficult it would have been at the factory trying to put out all the new styled bikes at the same time as a new model.
A very small company like Norton could have done it but a giant company like BSA had no chance and a board who had the slightest bit of industrial knowledge would have known this and never undertakes such a task.
Where as a board of managers who believe whatever I say will happen, by virtue of the fact I said so, would believe this was all possible, which BSA proved conclusively it was not.
And lets not forget on top of all of this BSA had introduced a new internal inventory control and two new production lines

Last edited by BSA_WM20; 02/08/18 11:00 pm.

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Trevor
Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724886
02/09/18 4:12 pm
02/09/18 4:12 pm
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SE Ohio
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Gavin. that'a an excellent looking OIFer. And I gotta get to Scotland...

Bill E


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71 A65FS
95 Trident
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Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724992
02/10/18 10:46 am
02/10/18 10:46 am
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England
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ferretjuggler Offline OP
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As far as I'm concerned that Citrus Fire Metallic is absolutely the mutts nuts.
Well worth the effort on a well sorted bike.
As professional paint jobs get more expensive every year, it looks like I'm going to have to pull my finger out, and do the work myself.
I have all the basic kit by I'm just not very good at paintwork.
Time to get a grip.

Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724998
02/10/18 10:59 am
02/10/18 10:59 am
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Sydney Australia
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In the post a picture of your BSA thread ( near the top of the thread lists ) go to post # 20654 & 28291 .
They are Semper Gumby's bottle green A 65 with large tank, stunning
Post # 26689 is Gary Szucs dark blue A 65 also stunning.
Kirt has already posted his pale blue one which is a beautiful bike but I always feel they look better with a dark tank & polished cases.
Post # 573664 has NZ Rians orange/white big tank painted the same as the 2 gal tank.
Post # 573680 Shows Craigs variation.

Just to give you some ideas of how the finished bike might look.
Started going back through the bike files but got distracted ( as per usual ) by many of the photos.


Bike Beesa
Trevor
Re: 1972 Thunderbolt colour scheme [Re: ferretjuggler] #724999
02/10/18 11:04 am
02/10/18 11:04 am
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Sydney Australia
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Originally Posted by ferretjuggler
As far as I'm concerned that Citrus Fire Metallic is absolutely the mutts nuts.
Well worth the effort on a well sorted bike.
As professional paint jobs get more expensive every year, it looks like I'm going to have to pull my finger out, and do the work myself.
I have all the basic kit by I'm just not very good at paintwork.
Time to get a grip.


BEfore you get too far in have a ferret around Tony Bandalos <learnautobodyandpaint.com>.
He has a really good you tube channel well worth the time to flick through some of his videos


Bike Beesa
Trevor

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